Endgame Let’s talk the T word (SPOILER DISCUSSION)

[gohei_]

That's the problem though... He still ends up simply living until today. So he didn't do anything in the "prime" timeline of the film itself... Which presents it's own issues since they said they couldn't change the past for themselves. So there shouldn't have been an old Steve that Bucky and Sam could have met in the first place under those circumstances.

I posted my thoughts on this earlier in this thread or The other one.

Option 1 is that Steve waited until he got old and then teleported back to his timeline. The problem with this one is that he can't go back to his new timeline that he shares with Peggy. (well technically if he hooks up with Hank Pym and tell him all about timetravel he might be able to find a solution to that as well.

Option 2 is that he goes back and marries Peggy and livets his while life under a rock., letting every thing unfold exactly as it did The first time. In that case Sam Hulk and Bucky Will still be there waiting for him, but now we are looking at a different timeline altogether. We as in the audience that is.

Sorry for all The grammatical errors as I am typing this on my phone and it keeps on changing my words around.

 

[Spicy]

So in the new timeline that cap made, wouldn't there still be a Steve Roger's that's frozen in ice?

 

[First Avenger]

I think Steve lives his life in the new timeline with Peggy but doesn't give up being Cap, he probably creates SHIELD with her, Stark, Pym (without Zola lol), does other stuff etc. then when Peggy dies in 2016 he uses Pym particles to come back to the original MCU timeline to give Sam his shield. The timeline in which he lives is probably very different to his original one.

 

[gohei_]

So in the new timeline that cap made, wouldn't there still be a Steve Roger's that's frozen in ice?

Yes.

 

[drmick]

So this is how I understand this timeline thing.

As long as they return the stones to the exact time that they took them, its like those stones never left and the timeline remains essentially unchanged.

For instance (this is a silly, simple example) I come home from a trip to the store where I bought a gallon of milk for a bowl of cereal I plan to eat later on. I place the milk in the fridge, then go upstairs to shower. "Future-Me" goes back in time and takes the milk from the fridge that he knows is there, returns to the future and drinks it. "Present-Me" comes downstairs for the cereal a few minutes later, opens the fridge and there's no milk. So now I have to make another trip to the store to buy another gallon of milk. This has created a new time line.

However if "Future-Me" drinks the milk, then goes to his store in his time and buys another gallon, and returns to the past and replaces it at the exact same time he took the milk, "Present-Me" is none the wiser. I will go to the fridge, open the gallon of milk, and enjoy my bowl of cereal like I had intended when I bought it, like nothing ever happened. Therefore nothing has been altered in my time line.

But what if Loki escaped with the milk and didn't return it?

What if your mum came into your shower and told you she wasn't your mum, but a Hydra agent?

What if Steve Rodgers goes back in time and gets your mum pregnant before she met your dad?

What would happen to your ancestors if Hitler and his army disappeared mysteriously out of existence in 1940?

 

[Mutant 77]

The other concept is branching timelines. The Infinity Stones had to be returned to the past, not to prevent their own timeline from being screwed up, but because they didn't want to screw over the other timelines. If they failed to return the Time Stone, Dormammu would have destroyed that timeline. If they failed to return the Scepter, there would be a timeline where the Vision and the Scarlet Witch were never "created." Under this theory, there would be a timeline where Loki escaped with the Space Stone (just not our timeline) and a timeline where Thanos just up and disappears before the events of the first Guardians of the Galaxy movie. Without Gamora, the Guardians of the Galaxy might never form, but it's hard to say specifically how that timeline ends up. Arguably, this could be some inspirations for the Marvel What Ifs.

Excellent post.

 

[Ozbridge]

But what if Loki escaped with the milk and didn't return it?

What if your mum came into your shower and told you she wasn't your mum, but a Hydra agent?

What if Steve Rodgers goes back in time and gets your mum pregnant before she met your dad?

What would happen to your ancestors if Hitler and his army disappeared mysteriously out of existence in 1940?

Yeah I don't think we can afford to have only one prime timeline, altering the past definitely creates an alternative universe. Steve returning the stones only to ensure that the prime timeline would happen, but alternative timelines have already been created due to the events that he can't restore (e.g. Thanos disappeared in 2014 or Loki escaped in 2012).

To use an crude example, if you travel to the past and kill your father, you don't cease to exist, you just create an alternative universe in which your father dies young and you are never born.

 

[WBwins]

I thought this Reddit explanation makes complete sense.

Movie explains that you can’t change the Past. Changing Past just creates alternate Timeline.

I assume the alternate timeline is created right at the point where someone makes a change in the past no matter how small, and that the characters return to the 'main' timeline because they are traveling through a tunnel with the origin point grounded in the main MCU timeline.

Timeline 1: Main MCU timeline where all the characters are traveling from. All stones destroyed, Thanos killed.

Timeline 2: Created when Avengers travel back to battle of NYC. The battle of NY we see onscreen in Endgame isn't the 'real' one but a parallel Timeline 2 version. In this timeline, Loki isn't captured and runs off with the Tesseract. I suspect Loki tv Show will be set in this Timeline.

Timeline 3: Created when Avengers travel back to get the Reality stone and Mjolnir from Asgard. Reality stone from this timeline goes to MCU main. Unknown how the 'future' of this timeline progresses, but if the reality stone and hammer are returned, it could be very similar to Timeline 1.

Timeline 4: Created when Avengers travel back to 1970s to get Tesseract. Space stone from this timeline goes to MCU main. Unknown how the 'future' of this timeline progresses, but if the space stone is returned, it could be very similar to Timeline1.

Timeline 5: Created when Avengers travel back to get Power/Soul stones. Nebula, Gamora, Thanos, Power, Soul stones from this timeline go to MCU main timeline. The 'future' of this timeline is very different because Thanos5/Nebula5/Gamora5 never return, everything from GoTG 1 and forward never happens.

Timeline 6: Created when Main Cap goes back to stay with Peggy. This allows Main Cap to potentially do things different with Bucky/Hydra without affecting main timeline and keeps the Cap/Sharon semi-romance we saw in the main MCU from being creepy. After living a Long Full life in this Timeline, Main Cap returns to Timeline 1 to give Falcon the shield

As for why Cap reappeared on the bench, rather than the platform,I chalk that up to artistic inconsistency on Writers. They thought it would be cooler to have him reappear on the bench and caused unnecessary confusion.

Nebula5. Nebula5/Thanos5 get killed in Timeline 1.

Gamora5 is alive, possibly setting up GoTG 3.

The 'alive' Loki is actually in Timeline 2 and not the main.I suspect Loki tv Show will be set in this Timeline.

 

[Hotwire]

People saying Cap traveled back to the time he left are either forgetting or ignoring a key detail. When you get sent through time, you come back to the spot you left. In that machine. If he jumped back to his time, he'd pop in on the platform.

 

[WBwins]

People saying Cap traveled back to the time he left are either forgetting or ignoring a key detail. When you get sent through time, you come back to the spot you left. In that machine. If he jumped back to his time, he'd pop in on the platform.

I chalk that up to artistic inconsistency on Writers. They thought it would be cooler to have him reappear on the bench and caused unnecessary confusion.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Nice try, but no... not possible. The predestination paradox/time loop model can't co-exist with the branching timelines one.
It doesn't matter which Captain America we take, we can't LOL.

Well, but in the "Loki ecapes with the tesseract"-timeline, there was (from the point of view of that timeline's inhabitants) a time travel event that was ALWAYS part of that timeline.

What I mean is: from the perspective of that Loki and the other human beings in that timeline, that timeline wasn't altered, it was ALWAYS the case that time travellers' presence allowed Loki to keep the tesseract.

If that is possible for the Loki-timeline, why shouldn't it be possible for *our* timeline? In the same way that there was always a time travel incident that allowed Loki to escape with the tesseract, there was always a second (time traveling) Captain America in our timeline.

I see no conflict between the branching timeline concept and the predistination paradox concept here, I see that one results in the other.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Btw the way - how the hell is Cap gonna give back the Aether and not find himself in bad situation on Asgard? Then the soul stone ...... where did he put it? Presumably Red Skull was freed (just like in IW) after Hawkeye was awarded it. If he wasn't freed then it's basically Cap returning it to the man he vanquished and there's no spat?

Just a guess, but I feel that if the first thing that Cap does is bringing back the time stone to the Ancient One, she can help him with how to return all the other stones - maybe even restoring the mind stone to a sceptre and the space stone to the tesseract form.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Let me get this straight....
1) Cap travels into another timeline to steal Peggy from the other Cap who's sleeping in the ice?
2) When they travel to Thanos and evil Nebula timeline and mess up, they kill Nebula without giving the sisters a chance for redemption?

Isn't it awfully irresponsible and selfish? Like the only timeline that matters is ours, but other = **** them. And what's even worse, they're intruding their worlds and mess them up... Yes, in timeline 2 snap never happens because Thanos left and died in timeline 1...

 

[Incredible Hans]

I agree that this could be a plot hole; they might explain later that Thanos had the gauntlet so he did some magic with the time stone or something like that (they wrote the script so they could make up the rules however they want). It will be a bit forced explanation but it's an insignificant point I think.

Thanos of 2014 didn't have the gauntlet and didn't have the time stone.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Let me get this straight....
1) Cap travels into another timeline to steal Peggy from the other Cap who's being frozen in the ice?

He doesn' steal Peggy from the other Cap who's being frozen in the ice.

The Cap in the ice will never have Peggy, he will be freed from the ice when Peggy is a very old woman and will die soon. UNLESS... the Cap in the ice goes back in time to be with Peggy

 

[OutOfBoose]

He doesn' steal Peggy from the other Cap who's being frozen in the ice.

The Cap in the ice will never have Peggy, he will be freed from the ice when Peggy is a very old woman and will die soon. UNLESS... the Cap in the ice goes back in time to be with Peggy

So infinity amount of timelines are created? And the time traveling Cap is in hiding for decades?

 

[Abudefduf]

Let me get this straight....
1) Cap travels into another timeline to steal Peggy from the other Cap who's sleeping in the ice?

Well no. But he "steals" her from her future husband and children. He denies Alternate Peggy the right to live a fulfilling life without him, because only he knows what's best for her.

The ***hole.

 

[OutOfBoose]

Well no. But he "steals" her from her future husband and children. He denies Alternate Peggy the right to live a fulfilling life without him, because only he knows what's best for her.

The ***hole.

This too. But the frozen Cap eventually wakes up and meets with Peggy, and they have feelings for each other. But she was with the other Cap this whole time... I can't.

 

[Incredible Hans]

Well no. But he "steals" her from her future husband and children. He denies Alternate Peggy the right to live a fulfilling life without him, because only he knows what's best for her.

The ***hole.

Unless he always was that husband.

 

[harlequinade]

Well no. But he "steals" her from her future husband and children. He denies Alternate Peggy the right to live a fulfilling life without him, because only he knows what's best for her.

The ***hole.

This is just wrong. It's another timeline. It's not 'future' anything

 

[Abudefduf]

Unless he always was that husband.

But that's not how time travel works in this universe, is it?

This is just wrong. It's another timeline.

And in this "other timeline", it is very likely that Peggy would've married another man and had children with him just like she did in the timeline we're familiar with. But Steve consciously decided to play God and change her future.

Selfish prick.

 

[harlequinade]

But that's not how time travel works in this universe, is it?

And in this "other timeline", it is very likely that Peggy would've married another man and had children with him just like she did in the timeline we're familiar with. But Steve consciously decided to play God and change her future.

Selfish prick.

What? Peggy loved Steve. The only reason she married someone else in original timeline is because Steve was gone.

 

[Abudefduf]

What? Peggy loved Steve. The only reason she married someone else in original timeline is because Steve was gone.

Steve was also gone in the alternate timeline. He was frozen in ice.

I wonder if "our" Steve told Alternate Peggy that he wasn't "her" Steve, but a clone from a different universe. It would very yikes if he didn't, because that would mean that he erased the future he knew she would build for herself without her consent.

It wasn't his choice to make. He had no right to jump into a different timeline and mess with it.

 

[harlequinade]

Well you are entitled to see this that way. I for one think Peggy was happy to see the love of her life return.

 

[WBwins]

This too. But the frozen Cap eventually wakes up and meets with Peggy, and they have feelings for each other. But she was with the other Cap this whole time... I can't.

We really dont know the circumstances that Led to Cap marrying an Alternate Peggy.For all you know the Alternate Cap was actually killed in 1940s not just frozen in Ice.So it wouldnt be weird for Main Cap to marry Alternate Peggy,

Alternate timelines equals many possibilities

Isn't it awfully irresponsible and selfish? Like the only timeline that matters is ours, but other = **** them. And what's even worse, they're intruding their worlds and mess them up... Yes, in timeline 2 snap never happens because Thanos left and died in timeline 1...

Ancient one calls out Bruce for the selfishness and consequences of their actions. Bruces solution was to return the stones back to the Timelines to the exact time they were taken to avoid messing them up.

It wasnt a perfect solution as we can see but its an attempt