LHC Particle Masher thread... (Quest for "Theory of EVerything")

[BlackLantern]

Congress and the DOD pulled the plug...not Clinton...they were afraid it would bite into the defense budget

 

[chamber-music]

Congress and the DOD pulled the plug...not Clinton...they were afraid it would bite into the defense budget

So they where saving up for when Bush Junior came to office then

 

[Colossal Spoons]

There's absolutely no evidence that this will create anything dangerous. It's all hype.

Lots of bad things have happened with no prior evidence to warn scientists. So many of the chemical reactions done by college students just for practice claimed the lives of many chemists who paved the way unfortunately.

without risks we wouldn't have a space program, or cell phones, or the internet....

Indeed, I agree with you and Carch that risks are necessary. Still scares me a bit when potentially dangerous physics is involved. I'm sure some people would be terrified by the thought of experimenting with anthrax, ebola, typhoid fever, etc like I want to. All about perspective.

That's the thing...where the hell is the risk? It's overhyped. People hear "black hole" and automatically panic, when 99% of those people have no clue what a black hole is in the first place. Even fewer people know about the potential black hole that would be created in this scenario (read: ****ing harmless).

The "risk" is a figment of the imagination.

Thankfully the people extremely opposed to this research have no say in the process but you mustn't throw caution to the wind. Accidents happen. I don't/won't claim to know much about physics on such a complex level but like any other avenue of science, something can always go horribly wrong. I'm hoping for the best though

 

[Carcharodon]

Thankfully the people extremely opposed to this research have no say in the process but you mustn't throw caution to the wind. Accidents happen. I don't/won't claim to know much about physics on such a complex level but like any other avenue of science, something can always go horribly wrong. I'm hoping for the best though

Agreed for the most part.

I'm not saying that a disaster is impossible. I just know (as you do) that there exist in science codes of ethics that are upheld on an international scale. I doubt that these scientists would go forward with this experiment if they thought there was the slightest chance of disaster.

That's why I don't understand the fears over black holes, antimatter, etc. Antimatter has been created (and stored) in the past, and the black hole worry is just laughable. The fact that these brilliant physicists know that these are potential outcomes and are not worried sort of signals to me that we shouldn't be either.

I'm just sick of the current perception of scientists: that they are oblivious and unconcerned with the consequences of their actions. It's ********. I can't stand it. People are so damn ignorant of not only what science actually is, but about what scientists actually do. That much must at least bug you a bit, right?

 

[The_Vision]

What would it take for the experiment to be called off?

 

[BlackLantern]

What would it take for the experiment to be called off?

If unsafe conditions within or around the facility presented themselves....if the device itself malfunctioned and could not be repaired immediately....why do you ask?? you planning something?

 

[The_Vision]

If unsafe conditions within or around the facility presented themselves....if the device itself malfunctioned and could not be repaired immediately....why do you ask?? you planning something?

lol Im too young to do anything, however i would like to see some protests or something like that. Hopefully they will come to their senses and turn it off and never speak of it again

 

[BlackLantern]

lol Im too young to do anything, however i would like to see some protests or something like that. Hopefully they will come to their senses and turn it off and never speak of it again

Protests in regards to what? What do you not agree with?

 

[Yerzrinot]

Agreed for the most part.

I'm not saying that a disaster is impossible. I just know (as you do) that there exist in science codes of ethics that are upheld on an international scale. I doubt that these scientists would go forward with this experiment if they thought there was the slightest chance of disaster.

That's why I don't understand the fears over black holes, antimatter, etc. Antimatter has been created (and stored) in the past, and the black hole worry is just laughable. The fact that these brilliant physicists know that these are potential outcomes and are not worried sort of signals to me that we shouldn't be either.

I'm just sick of the current perception of scientists: that they are oblivious and unconcerned with the consequences of their actions. It's ********. I can't stand it. People are so damn ignorant of not only what science actually is, but about what scientists actually do. That much must at least bug you a bit, right?

Your average Joe gets his ideas about science from crappy movies. 99 percent of the people who are opposed to this barely understand what a black hole or antimatter is.

lol Im too young to do anything, however i would like to see some protests or something like that. Hopefully they will come to their senses and turn it off and never speak of it again

Did anyone even read my first post in this thread? God people...

The odds of them creating a black home are infinitesimally small. Even if they were to create one it would be so small it would annihilate itself before it could do any damage.

https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Hawking_radiation

 

[Colossal Spoons]

Agreed for the most part.

I'm not saying that a disaster is impossible. I just know (as you do) that there exist in science codes of ethics that are upheld on an international scale. I doubt that these scientists would go forward with this experiment if they thought there was the slightest chance of disaster.

That's why I don't understand the fears over black holes, antimatter, etc. Antimatter has been created (and stored) in the past, and the black hole worry is just laughable. The fact that these brilliant physicists know that these are potential outcomes and are not worried sort of signals to me that we shouldn't be either.

I'm just sick of the current perception of scientists: that they are oblivious and unconcerned with the consequences of their actions. It's ********. I can't stand it. People are so damn ignorant of not only what science actually is, but about what scientists actually do. That much must at least bug you a bit, right?

See, I think physicists are in their own category here. I'd have a harder time believing there was a mad chemist or biologist than there being a mad physicist. Hell, I think you have to be kind of insane to grasp some of the Hawking-level concepts.

I can't speak for people who think all scientists are oblivious and have no concern for the world but I can see one(especially a physicist) getting so wrapped up in his work that he/she gets a bit reckless.

The general public's attitude towards scientists comes from cynicism and fear. Annoying? Yes, but understandable. Again, glad none of those people has much say in research

 

[November Rain]

Okay, I'll repeat myself: just because you don't see the applications doesn't mean they aren't there. Seemingly useless advances in physics have given us cell phones, computers, and countless other conveniences we use everyday.

I covered this point in my last sentence.

Also, everyday conviniences aren't particularly necessary for life to move forward. I would rather have money being spent on useful stuff like reducing unemployment rates and making sure people don't go starving.

you have to admit the potential advancements made in this field aren't going to help solve any of the world's current problems. It follows the quest to create solutions for issues that aren't widespread. It's very much a niche market with a relatively small field for application.

What you and others fail to understand is that we're not just trying to figure out how the universe began...we're trying to understand the universe as it exists now. With a better understanding of the rules under which the universe operates, we can better operate within it.

Make sense?

How is understanding how the universe works going to solve the HIV problem currently existing in africa?

To add to this, let me put this in a different perspective: what you're saying, essentially, is that physics is useless. Physicists try to understand the workings of the universe, matter and energy. It's their job. By calling this exercise useless, you're calling physics universally useless.

You lack the ability to reason affectively.

I'm not saying physics is useless, I'm saying this type of experiementation is stuff that should really be done when there aren't any more issues left or they become minor. Spend money on real issues that affect real people first and then answer these questions later.

you don't go to bed to dream while leaving the cooker on do you? This is very much the same point.

besides a large amount of money is always spent on science not to specifically answer questions but to be the first to answer questions, the prestige with spending large amounts of work to try and obtain answers to questions we'll never know never ceases to amaze me.

I'm PhD engineering student and nearly a doctor so i understand the quest to answer questions as well as the prestige of obtaining it but as an african national, i also see money being blown constantly on obtaining only a small amount of additional knowledge, knowledge that really makes no impact on poor societies.

 

[BlackLantern]

A particle phycisist isn't going to be researching HIV anyway....I think this experiment embodies what science is supposed to be....the discovering of WHY....and November Rain...not to sound like a total ****** but most of the world has written Africa off anyway....

 

[Colossal Spoons]

besides a large amount of money is always spent on science not to specifically answer questions but to be the first to answer questions, the prestige with spending large amounts of work to try and obtain answers to questions we'll never know never ceases to amaze me.

QFMFT!

America, Russia, and China are the most guilty of this. IMO

A particle phycisist isn't going to be researching HIV anyway....I think this experiment embodies what science is supposed to be....the discovering of WHY....and November Rain...not to sound like a total ****** but most of the world has written Africa off anyway....

Hm, that deserves its own thread lol

 

[Yerzrinot]

How is understanding how the universe works going to solve the HIV problem currently existing in africa?

Physics and microbiology are two very different fields.

Hm, that deserves its own thread lol

It would turn into a flame war within the first page. Anyone who questions the amount of money going to aide is instantly labeled a racist.

 

[BlackLantern]

Hm, that deserves its own thread lol

I don't think I'm wrong...most the industrialized nations make a nice show about caring for Africa but no one really does.....

 

[Colossal Spoons]

It would turn into a flame war within the first page. Anyone who questions the amount of money going to aide is instantly labeled a racist.

Unfortunately. But it's a very interesting topic.

I don't think I'm wrong...most the industrialized nations make a nice show about caring for Africa but no one really does.....

No argument here

 

[FaT_tONle]

I covered this point in my last sentence.

Also, everyday conviniences aren't particularly necessary for life to move forward. I would rather have money being spent on useful stuff like reducing unemployment rates and making sure people don't go starving.

you have to admit the potential advancements made in this field aren't going to help solve any of the world's current problems. It follows the quest to create solutions for issues that aren't widespread. It's very much a niche market with a relatively small field for application.

Wow this is a very limited way of looking at things... it's not only about solving current problems. You leave that to the politics, government, the industries, the economies, and the everyday working people. The question is... how do we solve 23rd century problems? The science done today will be the applications we use for tomorrow.

How is understanding how the universe works going to solve the HIV problem currently existing in africa?

As I said... I hopefully will be doing research in the fields of genetics and molecularbiology... I can't tell you how many laboratories in this country alone are working on this problem. It's called multi tasking.

You lack the ability to reason affectively.

I'm not saying physics is useless, I'm saying this type of experiementation is stuff that should really be done when there aren't any more issues left or they become minor. Spend money on real issues that affect real people first and then answer these questions later.

Because everything is going to be fixed in this world when we wake up one fine morning...

you don't go to bed to dream while leaving the cooker on do you? This is very much the same point.

besides a large amount of money is always spent on science not to specifically answer questions but to be the first to answer questions, the prestige with spending large amounts of work to try and obtain answers to questions we'll never know never ceases to amaze me.

The same talk of predecessors centuries ago... who of course have been proven wrong in the present.

I'm PhD engineering student and nearly a doctor so i understand the quest to answer questions as well as the prestige of obtaining it but as an african national, i also see money being blown constantly on obtaining only a small amount of additional knowledge, knowledge that really makes no impact on poor societies.

Why the hell aren't you a humanitarian volunteering for the Red Cross then? let's take that money you invested for that education and spend it on the kids in Africa.

 

[Colossal Spoons]

As I said... I hopefully will be doing research in the fields of genetics and molecularbiology... I can't tell you how many laboratories in this country alone are working on this problem. It's called multi tasking.

Nice, good luck w/ that dude. I'm a microbiologist. Wish I'd taken more genetics classes in college but my 4 years ran out

 

[Mike_D202]

without risks we wouldn't have a space program, or cell phones, or the internet....

uh, HELLO! Roswell!!!

 

[Danalys]

uh, HELLO! Roswell!!!

aliens starved while alien scientists worked on that alien tech

 

[November Rain]

A particle phycisist isn't going to be researching HIV anyway....I think this experiment embodies what science is supposed to be....the discovering of WHY....and November Rain...not to sound like a total ****** but most of the world has written Africa off anyway....

Again, I'm not talking about the scientists, rather those who go out of their way to obtain grants from equal fields, The higher researchers that go to funding bodies that are set up by banks, private equity companies or other rich investments.

at that playing field, the research is tapping into resources that could be better spent on other things.

The funny thing about africa is that is has the most amount of natural resources. With the people allowed to make some cultural changes and sacrifices, I can see its nations becoming a superpower with a generation or two. It wouldn't really take that long.

but that's not going to happen when billions are being spent on specific unique experiments.

Again, i'm not against their work but there is a time and a place. You wouldn't spend billions on research if the united states went to war, that money would go to finance weaponary, training and war based stuff.

The world has too many things going on for me to justify this as morally acceptable way of spending money.

As an engineer, I realise there were plenty of theoretical modelling techniques made decades ago, but they didn't have the computational power to validate them, they didn't go building billion pounds of computer to validate models, only now with computational power being significantly higher are old models being implemented.

There is a time and a place for scientific progress.

 

[November Rain]

Wow this is a very limited way of looking at things... it's not only about solving current problems. You leave that to the politics, government, the industries, the economies, and the everyday working people. The question is... how do we solve 23rd century problems? The science done today will be the applications we use for tomorrow.

Who do you think help provide the funding for this type of research, you can't alientate funding from politics and the economy because it is ultimately dependant on how much additional money a goverment has in its budget that goes into future research.

now if the Kudos of being the first people in space means billions are taking away from health care budgets and hospital funding, or aid in support of a war campaign, then is that morally an acceptable way for cash to be spent.

I live and work in research, I completely understand it all and I'm not looking at it from a separatist point of view.

if you look at it purely from a business model point of view, i understand a decent percentage of money needs to be spent on R and D, but if this money is eating into the refurbishment and maintenance of machinery, then your business won't have a future. R and D money is effectively all profit after everything else has been sorted out. The same should be said for this R and D. There are plenty of other problems in the world and spending this amount of money, time and effort is not going to provide solutions to current world issues.

as a governing or grant body, this is something one needs to sit back and really think about.

As I said... I hopefully will be doing research in the fields of genetics and molecularbiology... I can't tell you how many laboratories in this country alone are working on this problem. It's called multi tasking.

I've given but one example, there are far more issues and they need to be given some level of priority with regards to funding.

Because everything is going to be fixed in this world when we wake up one fine morning...

Some problems are sustainable while others are nucleating and others are growing at an exponential rate.

Until some form of control/sustainability or reduction of other problems are on the horizon, then more money can be spent on other issues that will lead to progress.

again, i'm not saying stop research altogether but for the ratio between the amount of money being spent and the knowledge gained is not going to be significant and by that I mean significantly better the way of life. It'll better our understanding but it's not knowledge everyone can gain from.

The same talk of predecessors centuries ago... who of course have been proven wrong in the present.

Back then, they didn't spend billions of dollars on experiments the world wasn't such a smaller place. We know better now.

Why the hell aren't you a humanitarian volunteering for the Red Cross then? let's take that money you invested for that education and spend it on the kids in Africa.

My research is being used to make safer aircraft that save lives. It's plain and simple and has very clear goals that will help people.

I also volunteer, not for large group organisations but personally for small groups of individuals in Nigeria. Without the Red Cross or Oxfam taking their admistrative cuts.

Also the money spent on me being an academic means i can generate more money in the future which is more funding that can go on to help others. I also hope to infiltrate large corporations and persuade them and their human affairs commitees to donate more sums and money and be active in communities around their industries and abroad.

so what's your point?

 

[chamber-music]

Africa would be better off if their wasn't internal struggles and a dictator or war lord trying to kill one another each week. Ethnic and tribal war fair and grredy corrupt politicians who care more about filling their pockets than helping thir people.

If most of these african leaders could secure peace and stability as well as strong leadership and organisation their would be no reason that they could not be very wealthy nations with the vast natural rescources Africa holds.

 

[November Rain]

That's easy to say but when driving issues are ultimately a large percentage of the majority are struck by povery, famine, disease and the leaders come from these humble backgrounds, one isn't surprised that they get powerhungry when they 'make it'

personally i see there needs to be a reductino on the gap between the rich and the poor so people are less effected by rising up the ranks into positions of power so they can take their responsibilities seriously.

tribal variations will always be a problem, not particularly sure how to solve that one

 

[FaT_tONle]

Well considering this project was funded for YEARS in the making... the people behind this could have financed this whole thing within their allocated budget. We can't rule that out for sure. To say that the U.S and the rest of the world should cut down whatever portion of money they dish out to research like this to spend it on kids in Africa is absolute nonsense. We need to allocate money to every field, industry, research. Just find me proof where the U.S or some non scientific financer deliberately took out a significant amount of money that was previously allocated to more applied/present day issues and you might have a point. We don't know if that's the case though. I mean look at how NASA has stalled over the years. They have had to stick within their budget and with all the setbacks they have suffered, it seems like they'll never get much more than the baseline funding for their efforts in the near future. The heyday of space exploration seems like ancient history these days.