Lionel is finally explained...

[tonytr1687]

I still think that the events of Transference left Lionel a changed man in more ways than we can see on the outside. He was miraculously cured, indicating great physical change, so it isn't a huge leap to assume that there were after-effects on a mental level as well. That was just the start though. Having Jor-El download into Lionel his essence, or whatever it is that allows him to use Lionel as a conduit, also has to have extreme ramifications on Lionel.

I don't think you can minimize the effect that the body transference had on Lionel though.

I would agree with you if it werent for the fact that Lionel went back to being evil in Onyx. I know some ppl here think he didnt, but come on...

"A man cant deny his true nature, can he Lex? Nahhh...we're Luthors. We're LUTHORS."

Then the way he went about threatening Lana in Commencement to get the stone, not to mention continuing his quest to make Lex just like him? He was definitely evil so the only way I can believe Lionel turning good again is if it was a side effect from Jor-El, much like the effect Clark had on him in Transference. People here are saying that Lionel changed ON HIS OWN b/c he saw the error of his ways. And I dont buy that.

 

[BareKnucklez]

I would agree with you if it werent for the fact that Lionel went back to being evil in Onyx. I know some ppl here think he didnt, but come on...

"A man cant deny his true nature, can he Lex? Nahhh...we're Luthors. We're LUTHORS."

Then the way he went about threatening Lana in Commencement to get the stone, not to mention continuing his quest to make Lex just like him? He was definitely evil so the only way I can believe Lionel turning good again is if it was a side effect from Jor-El, much like the effect Clark had on him in Transference. People here are saying that Lionel changed ON HIS OWN b/c he saw the error of his ways. And I dont buy that.

Clark's goodness is what originally changed Lionel in the episode Transference, and when Jor-EL started to use Lionel as a vessel that just fully cleared the evil from him, and made him see how wrong he was, and that's why he's been changing to good... I like where the storyline is going, It's going to be really messed up when Lionel gets close to Clark, and Clark starts to trust him next season...

I have a feeling that this is what will really make Lex vs Clark explode! This, and Lex taking Lana from Clark... Oh, and whatever happens in the Season Finale heh.

 

[avidreader]

Clark's goodness is what originally changed Lionel in the episode Transference, and when Jor-EL started to use Lionel as a vessel that just fully cleared the evil from him, and made him see how wrong he was, and that's why he's been changing to good... I like where the storyline is going, It's going to be really messed up when Lionel gets close to Clark, and Clark starts to trust him next season...

I have a feeling that this is what will really make Lex vs Clark explode! This, and Lex taking Lana from Clark... Oh, and whatever happens in the Season Finale heh.

Yeah, I'm really liking this Lionel going good path and aligning himself with Clark. Its really going to drive the point home to Lex, that "daddy doesnt love me".

 

[Superfreak]

Clark's goodness is what originally changed Lionel in the episode Transference, and when Jor-EL started to use Lionel as a vessel that just fully cleared the evil from him, and made him see how wrong he was, and that's why he's been changing to good... I like where the storyline is going, It's going to be really messed up when Lionel gets close to Clark, and Clark starts to trust him next season...

I have a feeling that this is what will really make Lex vs Clark explode! This, and Lex taking Lana from Clark... Oh, and whatever happens in the Season Finale heh.

also, it's clear that lionel can't understand what he is passing along, but I think he's also changed because he has a vague understanding of the kryptonian threat, and how Lex is now firmly tied to that threat. Remember that Lionel has been trying to stop lex from getting to powerful for a while now. And that Lionel understands Lex, and his thirst for power, better than anyone in the series.

I think it's safe to say that Lionel, although an evil man at the heart, still has the awareness to know what side to be on. He may be an evil capitalist bastard, but does he really want to let the planet be ruled by essentially omnipitent beings?

 

[tonytr1687]

Clark's goodness is what originally changed Lionel in the episode Transference, and when Jor-EL started to use Lionel as a vessel that just fully cleared the evil from him, and made him see how wrong he was, and that's why he's been changing to good... I like where the storyline is going, It's going to be really messed up when Lionel gets close to Clark, and Clark starts to trust him next season...

I have a feeling that this is what will really make Lex vs Clark explode! This, and Lex taking Lana from Clark... Oh, and whatever happens in the Season Finale heh.

You're still ignoring the fact that Lionel went back to square one in Onyx.

 

[tonytr1687]

also, it's clear that lionel can't understand what he is passing along, but I think he's also changed because he has a vague understanding of the kryptonian threat, and how Lex is now firmly tied to that threat. Remember that Lionel has been trying to stop lex from getting to powerful for a while now. And that Lionel understands Lex, and his thirst for power, better than anyone in the series.

I think it's safe to say that Lionel, although an evil man at the heart, still has the awareness to know what side to be on. He may be an evil capitalist bastard, but does he really want to let the planet be ruled by essentially omnipitent beings?

But you see Lionel wouldnt be afraid of aliens. He would just try to use them and Clark to further his own goals. Oh and since when do evil and capitalist go together?

 

[Brainiac 8]

You're still ignoring the fact that Lionel went back to square one in Onyx.

It was never said, but I think it was all a show, just like the blindness.

 

[tonytr1687]

It was never said, but I think it was all a show, just like the blindness.

If it was never said, then it wasnt a show. And I'm sorry but if you really truly think about the stuff he did in the latter part of Season 4, you'll see he WAS evil. Threatening Lana, pushing Lex to the dark side, etc.

 

[Brainiac 8]

If it was never said, then it wasnt a show. And I'm sorry but if you really truly think about the stuff he did in the latter part of Season 4, you'll see he WAS evil. Threatening Lana, pushing Lex to the dark side, etc.

Nonono, I think he was evil all along, I think the good was an act.

 

[tonytr1687]

Nonono, I think he was evil all along, I think the good was an act.

Ohhhh...well I dunno about that. They really didnt do a good job of explaining it if it was.

 

[Batgort]

From a plot development perspective, they can't have Lionel being super-evil because they need Lex to evolve into that role. Lex cannot easily become the lead evil character if Lionel is always viewed as the original, more clever, more evil, more manipulating character.

Additionally, we need some more catalysts to get Clark closer to recognizing being a hero. His father always held him back -- how many times have we heard, "Now son, we don't know anything about (these people, this person)". When Jonathan Kent died, he started to say embrace your destiny, but Clark - as we all know - needs to be kicked in the pants sometimes to recognize things. Lionel, in my opinion, is going to help that now. After all, Jor-El can't force him to be a hero, since Clark still shows too much distrust of Jor-El. Lionel-Jor-El however has the wisdom of Jor-El combined with the practicality of a human perspective that is recognizing there is more evil in the world and in the universe.

Note on the whole Lex going Super-Zod... I hope they come up with some good plot mechanisms to describe this. My gut impression is that Lex becomes possesed by Zod, learns Clark's secret, Clark defeats him, and then Lex looses his memory for the entire time he was Zod. I hope the plot is more intereseting with other arcs being spawned for Season 6.

 

[Serene]

^Nice post, Batgort. I like and agree with your Lionel/Lex points.

 

[tonytr1687]

From a plot development perspective, they can't have Lionel being super-evil because they need Lex to evolve into that role. Lex cannot easily become the lead evil character if Lionel is always viewed as the original, more clever, more evil, more manipulating character.

Additionally, we need some more catalysts to get Clark closer to recognizing being a hero. His father always held him back -- how many times have we heard, "Now son, we don't know anything about (these people, this person)". When Jonathan Kent died, he started to say embrace your destiny, but Clark - as we all know - needs to be kicked in the pants sometimes to recognize things. Lionel, in my opinion, is going to help that now. After all, Jor-El can't force him to be a hero, since Clark still shows too much distrust of Jor-El. Lionel-Jor-El however has the wisdom of Jor-El combined with the practicality of a human perspective that is recognizing there is more evil in the world and in the universe.

Note on the whole Lex going Super-Zod... I hope they come up with some good plot mechanisms to describe this. My gut impression is that Lex becomes possesed by Zod, learns Clark's secret, Clark defeats him, and then Lex looses his memory for the entire time he was Zod. I hope the plot is more intereseting with other arcs being spawned for Season 6.

Yeah I'm fine with Lionel being good now, I just disagree with some ppl's theory on HOW he became good. I dont buy that Lionel's change of heart was all his own choice. It has to be b/c of Jor-El in some way.

 

[Superfreak]

But you see Lionel wouldnt be afraid of aliens. He would just try to use them and Clark to further his own goals. Oh and since when do evil and capitalist go together?

if you ask me, he looked pretty afraid of Clark before Brainiac/JKent showed up. 1 for me, 0 for you. And Evil and Capitalist have always been used together (for example McDonalds takes your hard earned money, and sells you substandard cattle feed in return) Capitalism is evil, Economics is evil, politics is evil. Any conceptual idea where you take something from someone else, to further your own gain. And Lionel takes lots from people, for his own gain. But does he want to take over the world? I don't think so. His motivation for a long segment of the series was a cure. Then his focus shifted to finding out how he actually did get cured. Now he's afraid of his own son.

 

[Abaddon]

Commie!

 

[tonytr1687]

if you ask me, he looked pretty afraid of Clark before Brainiac/JKent showed up. 1 for me, 0 for you. And Evil and Capitalist have always been used together (for example McDonalds takes your hard earned money, and sells you substandard cattle feed in return) Capitalism is evil, Economics is evil, politics is evil. Any conceptual idea where you take something from someone else, to further your own gain. And Lionel takes lots from people, for his own gain. But does he want to take over the world? I don't think so. His motivation for a long segment of the series was a cure. Then his focus shifted to finding out how he actually did get cured. Now he's afraid of his own son.

When I said Lionel wasnt afraid of aliens and the like, I was talking about the Lionel from Season 3 who wasnt afraid of anything. And true, most of his motivation was trying to find a cure for himself, but he was still an evil and manipulative bastard who abused Lex and tried to kill him. In Commencement that changed, but then in Onyx he went right back to the evil manipulative bastard. About the capitalism thing...riiiiigggghht. Do us a favor and move to China or North Korea. You'll have fun there.