Lois and... Lex? Should Clark&\S/ be the only to see Lex for who he is at first?

[\S/JcDc\S/]

With corporate Lex, even sharing his wealth with charities and such... Should we see Lois being enamored by him at first, even with the potential of a relationship?

I always thought it was clever on Lois and Clark, that with ALL the good things it seemed Lex was doing Clark would know it's a cover up. He knew it was all part of a bigger game.

Then when you saw Lex away from the public, you'd see all the manipulating he was doing, pretty interesting imo.


Do you want to see anything like this in a reboot?

I want to at least see a split, some people view Lex as good, and some are unsure of him.

 

[Webhead2006]

i would like it to be approached like that.

 

[BH/HHH]

I think they should go at it as hes attracted to her but she's not interested. This is also another reason he hates Superman.

 

[Man of Tomorrow]

Yes.


Lois should be charmed by Lex. It's very post-crisis.


It would also be a nice reversal for once to have Lois be more apprehensive and suspicious of Superman, he is the first alien humanity encounters afterall.

 

[protocida]

I prefer Clark, Lois, Jimmy and Perry being the only ones in the entire city to see beyond Lex's act as a humanitarian.

And Lois has never been atracted to Lex post-crisis. He was atracted to her, but she threw him off and loved Superman, which was one of the many motives why Lex hated him.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

I think they should go at it as hes attracted to her but she's not interested. This is also another reason he hates Superman.

I see what you mean, but would she still be fooled by him otherwise? For example, she may tell him "Lex you are great but I'm not interested in being with anyone."

then doot doot doot

Superman comes along and suddenly she is interested in someone.

 

[BH/HHH]

I see what you mean, but would she still be fooled by him otherwise? For example, she may tell him "Lex you are great but I'm not interested in being with anyone."

then doot doot doot

Superman comes along and suddenly she is interested in someone.

Yes thats exactly what I'd want. She constantly spurns Lex's advances and all of a sudden this Superman comes along and without even trying he gets Lois' attention. This in turn gives Lex his first reason to hate Superman.

 

[Kurosawa]

Bad, cliched and hackneyed idea at any time. Absolutely not.

 

[Man of Tomorrow]

I'm not a fan of a woman being the reason that Superman and Lex are enemies.


Besides I don't think Lex would have an attachment to any specific woman. Lexcorp Lex is a corrupt womanizer.


But I'd love to see him charm Lois just to get under Superman's skin, especially if Lois reciprocates.


Luthor is the master of manipulation.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

Yes thats exactly what I'd want. She constantly spurns Lex's advances and all of a sudden this Superman comes along and without even trying he gets Lois' attention. This in turn gives Lex his first reason to hate Superman.

Hmm... Would the affect be greater if she was involved with Lex (not at a fiance level) and when this big story hits (Superman) to where she devotes most of her time, she decides to remain friends and cool things off?

 

[BH/HHH]

Hmm... Would the affect be greater if she was involved with Lex (not at a fiance level) and when this big story hits (Superman) to where she devotes most of her time, she decides to remain friends and cool things off?

I dont think she should be. I like that he cant get her and hates that this Superman can.

I'm not a fan of a woman being the reason that Superman and Lex are enemies.


Besides I don't think Lex would have an attachment to any specific woman. Lexcorp Lex is a corrupt womanizer.


But I'd love to see him charm Lois just to get under Superman's skin, especially if Lois reciprocates.


Luthor is the master of manipulation.

It doesnt have to be the main reason but maybe the first of many. His biggest reason to hate him would be that he cant control him. Superman's a problem he can't just throw his cheque-book at.

 

[\S/JcDc\S/]

I'm not a fan of a woman being the reason that Superman and Lex are enemies.


Besides I don't think Lex would have an attachment to any specific woman. Lexcorp Lex is a corrupt womanizer.


But I'd love to see him charm Lois just to get under Superman's skin, especially if Lois reciprocates.


Luthor is the master of manipulation.

That is basically how I see it. I understand BH's idea though, if done well could be interesting.

 

[Kurosawa]

I dont think she should be. I like that he cant get her and hates that this Superman can.



It doesnt have to be the main reason but maybe the first of many. His biggest reason to hate him would be that he cant control him. Superman's a problem he can't just throw his cheque-book at.

To me the main drive of Lex's hatred of Superman is that Supes is as superior to him as he feels he is superior to the rest of humanity. It's like Lex's mind is a supersonic jet and the rest of us are riding mopeds. Superman challenges Lex's own feelings of superiority and he cannot stand that. With Corporate Lex, before Superman came along, he owned Metropolis. Once Supes arrives he is #2 and he cannot take that.

Pre-Crisis Lex was a little bit more complex than that since he was more of the honorable villain type a la Doom or Magneto but it was a similar motivation for him too.

 

[BH/HHH]

To me the main drive of Lex's hatred of Superman is that Supes is as superior to him as he feels he is superior to the rest of humanity. It's like Lex's mind is a supersonic jet and the rest of us are riding mopeds. Superman challenges Lex's own feelings of superiority and he cannot stand that. With Corporate Lex, before Superman came along, he owned Metropolis. Once Supes arrives he is #2 and he cannot take that.

Pre-Crisis Lex was a little bit more complex than that since he was more of the honorable villain type a la Doom or Magneto but it was a similar motivation for him too.

That is another of the many reasons. Lex's hatred should build and build towards Superman.

 

[dark_b]

i think Lex should hate superman for being superman and not because Lois finds him attractive.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea i agree it shouldnt be about lois for superman and lex's hatred. Lex should hate superman for what he is and does and ruins his plans. Though i wouldnt mind if they did have lois and lex dated or were close. But i definately want to see it clark knows lex is the evil behind things. But cant prove it just yet to take him down. Then also most of the city believes lex who who he really is presented in the public.

 

[BH/HHH]

i think Lex should hate superman for being superman and not because Lois finds him attractive.

No ones saying that, some of us just think it could be one of several reasons why he hates Superman. In Byrnes MOS this is what happens, so with the Goyer rumours of the new film following the Byrne story then I believe this may be incorporated.

 

[DavidTyler]

I like the concept that Lois sees thru Lex and has always seen thru him. This is the thing that makes Lex want her more. It's like he can have any woman in Metropolis but this one and it's the one challenge that he can't overcome (until Superman comes along and upsets his apple cat even further). I like the idea that Lois is pretty sharp and not too much get's past her. Although she doesn't at first, I think she even starts to suspect that Superman has another identity and it's Clark. I mean, No-one thinks Superman has another identity so they don't go looking but Lois starts to connect the dots - not at first but eventually.

Perry and Jimmy see thru him as well.... Perry because he's an old Newspaper man with those instinct and Jimmy because the people around him have made him aware of such things. In fact, they're kind of his role models.

As for complexity.... Kurosawa, I respect you but I just think corporate shark Lex is much more complex. ... and I grew up with the pre-crisis version, too.

 

[Kurosawa]

I like the concept that Lois sees thru Lex and has always seen thru him. This is the thing that makes Lex want her more. It's like he can have any woman in Metropolis but this one and it's the one challenge that he can't overcome (until Superman comes along and upsets his apple cat even further). I like the idea that Lois is pretty sharp and not too much get's past her. Although she doesn't at first, I think she even starts to suspect that Superman has another identity and it's Clark. I mean, No-one thinks Superman has another identity so they don't go looking but Lois starts to connect the dots - not at first but eventually.

Perry and Jimmy see thru him as well.... Perry because he's an old Newspaper man with those instinct and Jimmy because the people around him have made him aware of such things. In fact, they're kind of his role models.

As for complexity.... Kurosawa, I respect you but I just think corporate shark Lex is much more complex. ... and I grew up with the pre-crisis version, too.

Corporate Lex is okay but there is no noble side to him at all. Bronze Age Lex wasn't even exactly evil, he just hated Superman. Bronze Age Lex compares best to noble villains like Magento and Doom, both of whom are FAR superior characters to corporate Lex. Silver Age Lex had little depth, he was just flat-out evil. Corporate Lex compares best to 50's Luthor, who was more along the lines of a criminal/gangster and less based in science. Not that Byrne knew anything about that character. His Luthor is a combination of Kingpin and Justin Hammer much like his Superman is a combination of Spider-Man and Colossus.

I can give or take Corporate Lex. Luthor did not have a consistent character and direction like Superman did (as a character, not with the details) from 1938-1986 and is therefore more open to change, as he went through several different directions all through the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages. Original red-headed Luthor was a scientist and a would-be conqueror, possibly European in origin. Later GA Luthor with the bald head was a purely evil scientist, sometimes even drawn with fangs. The next Luthor was the early 50's Luthor who was fatter (like Byrne's version) and more of a criminal/con man although a scientist as well. Finally with the Silver Age the actual Lex Luthor character was brought in with the childhood friendship with Superboy and Clark. Then in the Bronze Age, that character was fleshed out and made a 3 dimensional character when Maggin got ahold of him. The only consistent thing with Luthor was science, so Byrne naturally downplayed that. Neil Gaiman (who is 1,000,000,000X the writer Byrne is) was right when he said: "It's a pity Lex Luthor has become a multinationalist; I liked him better as a bald scientist. He was in prison, but they couldn't put his mind in prison. Now he's just a skinny Kingpin." Still I tolerate Corporate Lex as long as he has some connection to science. Putting up with **** is something you get used to as a purist fan.

 

[Webhead2006]

that could work out david.

 

[BH/HHH]

I like the concept that Lois sees thru Lex and has always seen thru him. This is the thing that makes Lex want her more. It's like he can have any woman in Metropolis but this one and it's the one challenge that he can't overcome (until Superman comes along and upsets his apple cat even further). I like the idea that Lois is pretty sharp and not too much get's past her. Although she doesn't at first, I think she even starts to suspect that Superman has another identity and it's Clark. I mean, No-one thinks Superman has another identity so they don't go looking but Lois starts to connect the dots - not at first but eventually.

Perry and Jimmy see thru him as well.... Perry because he's an old Newspaper man with those instinct and Jimmy because the people around him have made him aware of such things. In fact, they're kind of his role models.

As for complexity.... Kurosawa, I respect you but I just think corporate shark Lex is much more complex. ... and I grew up with the pre-crisis version, too.

Definitely spot on there mate with the Lex/Lois stuff, thats the ay it should be for me. In the Man of Steel graphic Novel I love what Lois says when Clark says he's heard her and Lex are a hot item "He's a collector, Kent and he wants to own at least one of everything in the world. He's fascinated by me because I am not interested in becoming a part of his collection and I've told him so". This for me sums it up perfectly.

 

[DavidTyler]

Corporate Lex is okay but there is no noble side to him at all. Bronze Age Lex wasn't even exactly evil, he just hated Superman. Bronze Age Lex compares best to noble villains like Magento and Doom, both of whom are FAR superior characters to corporate Lex. Silver Age Lex had little depth, he was just flat-out evil. Corporate Lex compares best to 50's Luthor, who was more along the lines of a criminal/gangster and less based in science. Not that Byrne knew anything about that character. His Luthor is a combination of Kingpin and Justin Hammer much like his Superman is a combination of Spider-Man and Colossus.

I can give or take Corporate Lex. Luthor did not have a consistent character and direction like Superman did (as a character, not with the details) from 1938-1986 and is therefore more open to change, as he went through several different directions all through the Golden, Silver and Bronze Ages. Original red-headed Luthor was a scientist and a would-be conqueror, possibly European in origin. Later GA Luthor with the bald head was a purely evil scientist, sometimes even drawn with fangs. The next Luthor was the early 50's Luthor who was fatter (like Byrne's version) and more of a criminal/con man although a scientist as well. Finally with the Silver Age the actual Lex Luthor character was brought in with the childhood friendship with Superboy and Clark. Then in the Bronze Age, that character was fleshed out and made a 3 dimensional character when Maggin got ahold of him. The only consistent thing with Luthor was science, so Byrne naturally downplayed that. Neil Gaiman (who is 1,000,000,000X the writer Byrne is) was right when he said: "It's a pity Lex Luthor has become a multinationalist; I liked him better as a bald scientist. He was in prison, but they couldn't put his mind in prison. Now he's just a skinny Kingpin." Still I tolerate Corporate Lex as long as he has some connection to science. Putting up with **** is something you get used to as a purist fan.

Thank you for responding. You do need to readjust one thing in your response, though: Corporate Lex was NOT the reinvention of John Byrne.... it was the work of MARV WOLFMAN. They both worked on MOS and Marv even stated that it was all contingent on whether John was on board with HIS reinvention of that character.

As ot Neil being a much better writer.... how can anyone dispute that? It's always been my position that John Byrne is NOT a great writer but an outstanding IDEA MAN. His concepts (and, yes, sometimes they're 'borrowed') tend to be rock solid and good foundations to build on. People like Waid are very good with dialogue, character interaction, and plotting but are not so hot at putting together believeable foundations for characters. John looked at the concepts behind Superman and asked the same questions I asked... how could a baby survive being sent into space wrapped in blankets and strapped into the cockpit of a rocket. It was from there that he decided sending a pregnant Lara was the answer. That idea was shot down by the powers that were in charge of DC at the time. As a result, John changed it to an artificial womb and, from there, he asked questions which resulted in his version of Krypton. Why would a society keep babies in artificial wombs? The answer wa that Kryptonian society had gotten to the point where they no longer gestated babies in their bodies which lead to the emotionally removed version of the Kryptonians. It all makes sense and is sets up a solid basis to build off of.

As to Luthor's brilliance as a scientist... it was never overlooked. It was how Lex built his fortune and how he knows what to do with the scientists that work for him now. Luthor brought science to bear against Superman all thru the Byrne run but we also had the added delight of watching Lex manipulate people. He gained a lot charsima during the Byrne years. I would say that the mulit-layered portrayal of the character during that time made him a very complex character. And he was cold and remorseless ... somehow seeming more so than had gone before. Silver age Luthor seemed very two dimensional ... even in Elliot Maggin's book where he seemed to be more an angry comedian than a villain.

That whole dissertation is what I mean about rock solid concepts.

 

[NotFadeAway]

PERSONALLY......

I've always thought the one person who see's through the Lex Luthor's act should be Lois Lane. I obviously want Lex Luthor to be the coporate, LexCorp owning Lex Luthor, but I do want politician Lex Luthor to be there as well as I feel the President Lex Luthor storyline should be adapted over the course of a franchise. Lex should be the hero of Metropolis, right up there with Superman in the eyes of many with the only person who can see him for what he really is being Lois Lane. It would be Lois who convinces Clark/Superman that Lex is a bad, bad person.

Meanwhile, Lex would hate Superman, obviously. I really think the Goyer and Nolan should read Lex Luthor: Man of Steel.

 

[Kurosawa]

Thank you for responding. You do need to readjust one thing in your response, though: Corporate Lex was NOT the reinvention of John Byrne.... it was the work of MARV WOLFMAN. They both worked on MOS and Marv even stated that it was all contingent on whether John was on board with HIS reinvention of that character.

As ot Neil being a much better writer.... how can anyone dispute that? It's always been my position that John Byrne is NOT a great writer but an outstanding IDEA MAN. His concepts (and, yes, sometimes they're 'borrowed') tend to be rock solid and good foundations to build on. People like Waid are very good with dialogue, character interaction, and plotting but are not so hot at putting together believeable foundations for characters. John looked at the concepts behind Superman and asked the same questions I asked... how could a baby survive being sent into space wrapped in blankets and strapped into the cockpit of a rocket. It was from there that he decided sending a pregnant Lara was the answer. That idea was shot down by the powers that were in charge of DC at the time. As a result, John changed it to an artificial womb and, from there, he asked questions which resulted in his version of Krypton. Why would a society keep babies in artificial wombs? The answer wa that Kryptonian society had gotten to the point where they no longer gestated babies in their bodies which lead to the emotionally removed version of the Kryptonians. It all makes sense and is sets up a solid basis to build off of.

As to Luthor's brilliance as a scientist... it was never overlooked. It was how Lex built his fortune and how he knows what to do with the scientists that work for him now. Luthor brought science to bear against Superman all thru the Byrne run but we also had the added delight of watching Lex manipulate people. He gained a lot charsima during the Byrne years. I would say that the mulit-layered portrayal of the character during that time made him a very complex character. And he was cold and remorseless ... somehow seeming more so than had gone before. Silver age Luthor seemed very two dimensional ... even in Elliot Maggin's book where he seemed to be more an angry comedian than a villain.

That whole dissertation is what I mean about rock solid concepts.

I don't care for Wolfman's writing either, although at least he writes on a readable level unlike Byrne. Most of the Byrne ideas you mention are generally seen as failures as they have all been rejected and replaced, like his cold Krypton and test tube baby Superman. I was very very glad to see that those ideas failed and were abandoned.

And your failed interpretation of Maggin's Luthor is just obscene. You need to reread his writing. I will say Corporate Lex is a better villain, but not a more developed or 3 dimensional character. He has little depth beyond being a ruthless manipulator and he is basically a soap opera type continuing villain. Not to mention Superman's inability to stop him for years made Supes look ineffective. He's just a skinnier Kingpin/Justin Hammer clone. But as I said, I accept him, because if you're a purist Superman fan you expect to put up with ****.

 

[SuperMike335!!]

Most of the Byrne ideas you mention are generally seen as failures as they have all been rejected and replaced, like his cold Krypton and test tube baby Superman. I was very very glad to see that those ideas failed and were abandoned.

I don' know if it can be quantified as most or some.

I don't think DavidTyler was talking about the test tube baby or cold Krypton.

These ideas were not my cup of tea either.

No idea how/why one would even bother making Superman a tubie.

Some of the Byrne idea I do like. Corporate Lex is a good one IMHO.