Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

Whoa, we got a badass with caps coming at us. I'll humour you whilst I wait for a download to finish. I'll do it. I'm up for it. Let's go.

Silos typically are storage units for grains. Not people, so it's fine. But you're asking viewers to assume that there's no one in a gas station situated on Smallville's main street. Yep, that's logic. Good call.

You're also asking viewers to once again assume that there's no one in the train station or parking area for trains even though it's likely the only station or parking area in a relatively small town. Bravo.

I'm not going to discuss Batman because we're discussing Superman. We can hear your caps ridden response on those films later. One at a time.

So Snyder doesn't show anyone potentially dying or having died in this film. Really? Did you miss the entire Battle of Metropolis where civilians were left to their fate by not just Superman (who was admittedly busy, so he's excused) but also the nation's own National Guard & Military? Really?

Please watch the film again. But you'll make the excuse that you don't want to nitpick over the film's flaws and won't watch it for that reason. Fine, don't. But in that case, please stop defending the film's plotholes and errors if you're not truly in the mood. You're putting up a poor defense.



I wholeheartedly agree. That's where the conflict between hero and villain rises from. It boils down to protecting the ones the hero loves from the villain.



So the filmmakers emphasized a hero's capacity to save lives on the grand level but on an intimate level it was him going 'well if they're still around, serves them right?' Am I understanding you?

Or are you implying that the filmmakers have portrayed a Metropolis inhabited by an inherently stupid populace? Surely with their desire to portray realism they'd show a more contemporary population staying at home or fleeing major cities?

Based on your assumption the filmmakers casually ignored these kinds of responses that the real world would make to such an event or just don't understand what it means to be human. Neither is a glowing endorsement for their ability to make films steeped in realism.



Again, it's the same point you make. I agree with you and the responsibility lies at the doorstep of the filmmakers. You can't blame a fictional population for not being appropriately vigilant.

Though the concept of saving lives in battle being clichéd should go hand in hand with world invasions by enemies being very clichéd on screen too, no?

I'll be honest, I'm thoroughly bored to death of seeing Independence Day being recycled in three different franchise films. Five if you count all three Transformers films. I'm sure there's more, but these are the big ones that grossed the big dollars.



Third time same point. Third time I'm agreeing with you. Could've done that all with one paragraph you know. :) I could've too, but this way is more fun. ;)

My use of caps in a way to illustrate my points, if you don't like them fine. You cracking jokes about them is just as petty as you are perceiving me to be. Just so you know.

Not going to discuss Batman because this is a Superman thread? Give me a break. Talk about dodging the point. It's a valid argument, and one people ignore in order to make their own arguments better. And, saying that the gas station is on Smallvilles main street is over-thinking in the extreme. The fact is many superhero films have this type stuff. Nolans Batman films, Whedons Avengers and Man of Steel. I see no reason why Man of Steel should be held to different standards than these other films.
 
By that logic Zod for all intents and purposes should be a better fighter than Clark regardless of the latter's potentially souped up strength levels due to increased exposure to Earth's yellow sun.

So then why the hell does the fight seem so one sided? Sure, there's probably more riding in Clark's favour if we go with the concept of belief over raw rage, but still, Zod should've known...he should've known to exploit that Achilles' heal. And he didn't?

What in the hell are you talking about? Zod was kicking Superman's ass for the most part, until the very last part of the battle. The only time Superman truly had the upper hand was right before the end of their fight.

And Zod was throwing Superman through as many buildings as possible, putting countless lives in danger. I don't think that's an accident.
 
I can never tell whether that clap is sarcastic or not.


Not at all. I wholeheartedly agree. You say you're a writer? It's not very surprising then, that you recognize poor choices in the writing when you see it. It's easy to get distracted by the big, flashy spectacle of two action figures punching each other and lose sight of character arcs, consistency in storytelling, narrative themes, etc...

The biggest problems with a lot of these big superhero movies lately has been the writing. Just awful. It usually boils down to not having a clear vision or just plain misunderstanding of the character(s)...
 
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Are we now suggesting that somehow putting character development briefly on hold while rising action is occurring is "poor writing"?
 
^ Yes, I think if the sequels have better editing, they can finally get a positive critical response. Editing is the difference between Superman killing a depowered Zod, and just letting them roam the earth. I agree about some of the flaws in editing, but I don't let it ruin the movie.

As for the writing, it's contingent on the sequels to develop the characters. If the sequels aren't more fleshed out, then MOS will be a missed opportunity of epic proportions.
 
The fight I saw had zod fling supes through 4 or 5 highrise buildings at once in one scene. In Another, Zod hit him so hard at one point he knocked supes up the side of a 40 or 50 story building, zod also knocked supes down with a steel girder.
Supes never had the upper hand till the very end.
 
Ok, having watched the movie again, here's my take on the claimed disregard Superman has for his surroundings:

Smallville:
It starts out with an enraged Superman reacting to a threat towards his mother. A very human reaction, where it appears that Superman is not overly concerned about what they may crash into. I'll give the critics that one. However, as I said, a very human reaction.

As Zod is rescued, the next threat is Faora and the big dude (forget his name). They are walking towards each other, and Superman is telling people to "Get inside. It's not safe!"
The coming fight isn't started by Superman though. It's started by the military, opening fire on the three (who are still on the street, so they're basically opening fire on a small town).
Actually the first thing we see Supes do in this fight, is rescue a pilot, as Faora is targetting the second plane (after the big dude rams the first one). Superman rams Faora just as she is about to hit the plane, thereby saving the pilot.

They crash into iHop and Superman stands up and immediately looks around at the people there, only to be knocked down by Faora.
When they both go at Supes, he's actually trying to get away, but is being pulled back. He then grabs Faora and tries to take her up in the air, but again is pulled down by the big dude. After using his heat vision to get out from underneath them, the military fires again.
The big dude throws a van at a chopper and the pilot falls out. Superman catches him with a "Are you OK?" only to ambushed immediately by the big dude and knocked to the ground.

Now while our hero is busy with the big dude, Faora takes out some soldiers and is moving in on Hardy. Supes lifts the big dude up in the air and knocks him in to the trains. Thereby getting him away from the buildings and into an area where there seem to be no people around. That looks very deliberate to me.
He then rescues Hardy just as Faora is about to "reward" him. Faora states that "For every human you save, we will kill a million more", which in my mind actually underlines the importance on focussing on the big picture and not individuals.
A train comes flying in, and knocks Superman into a building, and a missile is launched at Faora. This is three (3) times the military has fired at this little town. The fight is over.

The town is a mess, but 95 % of the destruction was done by the military and the Kryptonians. Superman hit the gas station and you could argue that he's responsible for the iHop too. The rest is not by his hand. He performed three direct saves in that fight, but it seems that they don't count to some people, dunno why...? Plus he saves Lois just before this whole thing.
He then rushes back to check on his mother (who I guess he also saved).

Metropolis / Earth:
The World Engine is released and must be stopped before it destroys us all. Therefore the focus now HAS to be on stopping the threat. This is common sense. There can be no time wasted saving individuals, as even more people will die while he does that.

After having used all his energy doing "his part" on the other side of the planet (illustrated by the shot of him reaching for the sun, which I loved), he rushes back to Metropolis and saves the plane carrying his ship, just as Zod is about to destroy it.
Zod's ship has to go down, and everyone knows it. If the plane goes down, the plan fails. Superman does his duty and saves the crew on the plane so that they still have a fighting chance.

Lois is saved yet again (as it should be i guess) and all that remains now, is Zod!
Now Zod really starts out by saying "I have nothing left to live for. My purpose in life is gone. And I'm gonna make you pay!". He initiates the fight and all hell breaks loose. He tells Superman that he will take the humans he loves so much from him, one by one.
Zod rams them into the (empty) office building and Zod cuts it in half with his heat vision. After Zod sheds his armor, Superman takes the fight to the sky, where the flying punches occur. It's Zod who brings the fight back down to the buildings, and it's Zod who throws Superman through countless buildings in a phase where our hero is in serious trouble.

They end up in space, where Zod throws a sattelite at Supes and then rams him again, heading back towards earth. As I see it, Superman doesn't get the upper hand before they are just about to hit the building. After the impact Supes has Zod in a headlock and can finally contain him. The rest is history.

The point I'm trying to make is: Superman did make saves when the opportunity was there. But when the threat got too big, there was not time for individuals, the threat had to be stopped.
Superman did pay attention to his surroundings, but everytime he turned his attention away from his opponent, they were all over him.
Superman did not cause the destruction of Smallville and Metropolis. The military and the Kryptonians did.

Now I can understand that many people would have liked to have seen a couple of epic saves in Metropolis, I would too.
But I kinda like the fact that this movie presented Superman with tough choices, where the perfect solution just wasn't there. Where no matter what he does, it comes with a cost.
He still ended up doing the right things, where he saved the most people (IMO).

Whew, that went on to be a much longer post than I intended. I fully understand those of you who didn't make it all the way through :cwink:

:applaud

You sir, are my Superman.
 
i'm having this scene in mind... that superman heard the scream of help and he sprinted down and caught the falling debris just in time to save a family. when he was about to say "you are safe", general zod dove into him and blew him away... the debris fell and crushed on the family... superman was in shock, with his x-ray to see all the family member were dead including kids...

is it ok to show kids and family die right before superman eyes???
can the audience take it???
 
The fight I saw had zod fling supes through 4 or 5 highrise buildings at once in one scene. In Another, Zod hit him so hard at one point he knocked supes up the side of a 40 or 50 story building, zod also knocked supes down with a steel girder.
Supes never had the upper hand till the very end.

Im pretty sure that Supes knocked Zod through multiple buildings because he threatened his mother. No?
 
Im pretty sure that Supes knocked Zod through multiple buildings because he threatened his mother. No?

A wheat/corn silo and a gas station (presumably empty). I highly doubt anyone was swimming in the grain of the wheat silo.
 
and the gas station? remember its not just the building itself, but the surrounding area as well. there was absolutely no indication that Supes made sure it was unpopulated before he tossed Zod. Quite the opposite: it was a totally spontaneous, rage-filled reaction. Metropolis was even worse, even if he didnt instigate the fight.
 
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and the gas station?

Like I said, presumably empty. The film doesn't show us people in the building, thus the worrying that he blew up a bunch of people is a none issue as we are to assume nobody was hurt. Just as we are to assume Batman didn't blow people up in their vehicles in TDK or the Avengers didn't kill people blowing massive alien serpents from the skies and into building.
 
Batman is VERY different from Superman. And Supes was purely offensive in his actions. He was the direct and only cause of the destruction of the gas station, which he did out of anger. The Avengers were just doing their best in a bizarre situation and Whedon made a point of showing them (especially Cap) helping people in the buildings. Nice try though.

Continuing to engage Zod in the middle of the city was much worse though, even if it was more defensive in nature. The writers had multiple (infinite actually) options to give Supes an opportunity to change the venue to an unpopulated area.
 
Im a New Yorker. And Im still here in NYC. But that was just his experience. Plenty of New Yorkers came out of the theater feeling just fine and enjoyed the movie.

That dude doesnt speak for me.

I was in the city that day too, and the destruction definitely reminded me of that, but not so much that I was offended or felt the need to walk out.

But I could understand why others might have a hard time with it. It bothered my mom a little, although she enjoyed the movie as well.
 
Batman is VERY different from Superman. And Supes was purely offensive in his actions. He was the direct and only cause of the destruction of the gas station, which he did out of anger. The Avengers were just doing their best in a bizarre situation and Whedon made a point of showing them (especially Cap) helping people in the buildings. Nice try though.

Continuing to engage Zod in the middle of the city was much worse though, even if it was more defensive in nature. The writers had multiple (infinite actually) options to give Supes an opportunity to change the venue to an unpopulated area.

All of the fighting in the city took place in areas SHOWN to be free of people. Not to mention most of it took place in the already deserted and decimated area of the city.

And how is Batman different? It's the same situation just on a smaller scale. If anything Batman is worse because the film SHOWS people in the destruction. One guy in his car as Batman zooms by and two children watching all the explosions as they happen. What if Batman blew up their car? What if one of the cars he blew up landed on theirs? Its simply stuff that you assume just isn't going to happen and accept it because its a film. And yes, Cap and others are shown rescuing people. That doesn't stop Iron Man from blasting massive beasts from the sky which land on buildings. Same with Thor and Hulk. How did they know all of the aliens they shot out of the sky didn't crush people? Cause more damage? I honestly don't see how people are willing to ignore/forgive these films but not Man of Steel is is the film that shows the least amount of people directly in harms way of the hero fighting the bad guy.
 
What in the hell are you talking about? Zod was kicking Superman's ass for the most part, until the very last part of the battle. The only time Superman truly had the upper hand was right before the end of their fight.

And Zod was throwing Superman through as many buildings as possible, putting countless lives in danger. I don't think that's an accident.

Sorry, but I really didn't see Superman not having the upper hand in the fight. If anything it was fairly equal and it shouldn't have been considering the difference in their fighting skills.

I would've wanted to see Superman on his knees, really taking a beating. Then I'll believe Zod had the upper hand. Otherwise he just seemed like a bull in a china shop not able to control his powers. The imbalance was lazily shown considering one was a farmboy and the other a warrior.

I'm sorry, but no. You've made some good points so far but claiming that Zod intentionally threw Superman through as many buildings as possible is just ridiculous. It's like saying Anakin purposely damaged the mining facility's controls on Mustafar. It was convenient writing to showcase the action and add a sense of danger. It didn't feel dangerous in Man of Steel.
My use of caps in a way to illustrate my points, if you don't like them fine. You cracking jokes about them is just as petty as you are perceiving me to be. Just so you know.

Not going to discuss Batman because this is a Superman thread? Give me a break. Talk about dodging the point. It's a valid argument, and one people ignore in order to make their own arguments better. And, saying that the gas station is on Smallvilles main street is over-thinking in the extreme. The fact is many superhero films have this type stuff. Nolans Batman films, Whedons Avengers and Man of Steel. I see no reason why Man of Steel should be held to different standards than these other films.

Me cracking jokes is to lighten the mood since you're in full on militant mode regarding any criticisms of the movie.

You know why I won't discuss the Batman film? Because it's not the same. Batman doesn't have the ability to save multiple lives at once. He's not Superman so the point of 'why don't you hate the destruction in Batman?' is moot, especially considering it was nowhere near the same scale.

So hold on, you at one moment try to accuse me of dodging the point and then you pull the biggest dodge by saying 'LEAVE MOS ALONE, IT HAPPENS IN EVERY MOVIE, OMG!'. No. That's not going to work.

There's a few reasons which I've gone over, but you really seem the sort who doesn't read unless it's sunshiny.

Firstly, it's in Superman's character and history to save lives wherever he can. Claiming this is unlike a Superman you've ever seen before is ********. It's just not on. It's him. He saves people and protects people.

Secondly, the fact is that claiming destruction is seen in every film so far doesn't really lend to the desire to see more originality in such films. Going the way of just tacking on something that's already been done before really doesn't bode well for a reboot claiming to reinvent how Superman's been seen so far. It's counterproductive and unoriginal.

Thirdly, the destruction being shown for destruction's sake is probably the biggest problem regarding this issue. It's shown, it's exploited and its milked for all its worth without actually emotionally resonating with audiences bar a few folk sensitive to such scenes.

You know why? It's the first time we saw Metropolis in its full view? Who gives about a city that's not been built up or its characters and citizens haven't been emotionally invested in? You compare it to the Avengers, fine. I've made my point. That film made efforts to show the National Guard, the Avengers themselves, Police Officers and normal citizens helping each other through the crisis and then reflecting on it later too.

What happened here? The issue got put under the rug and was substituted by the ridiculous drone sequence and the courtside tickets tomorrow night scene without even acknowledging what had gone on. Three days or three weeks, the city almost got leveled. I wanna know what happened considering it was such a big deal. Or was it? Oh wait, it was a CGI fest to suck in the dollars and leave emotional investment the toilet. Good job.

Those are some of the issues atop countless others discussed. Read. Don't just assume that people don't get it or think they're stupid. If you genuinely want to know what people's problems are with the scene, read. Else, just ignore what people are saying and continue liking the film for what it is. No one minds. Don't get fanatic and then fail to make a point.

Just a by the by, you keep telling people to assume that a main street in a small town was unpopulated and the main areas of a big city were unpopulated. So they vacated this just to allow the fight to run its course even though they didn't see it coming and you even saw people running for cover? Are you high?
 
Ok, having watched the movie again, here's my take on the claimed disregard Superman has for his surroundings:

Smallville:
It starts out with an enraged Superman reacting to a threat towards his mother. A very human reaction, where it appears that Superman is not overly concerned about what they may crash into. I'll give the critics that one. However, as I said, a very human reaction.

I don't mind this one either. I get it. It's callous, but it's meant to be and they address it sufficiently.

As Zod is rescued, the next threat is Faora and the big dude (forget his name). They are walking towards each other, and Superman is telling people to "Get inside. It's not safe!"

The rescue was so damn contrived. 'I can't fight you so I'll get the hell out of here but so that we seem some coolzors action, there's Faora and Nam-Ek!' But yes, there's not much more he could've done here.

The coming fight isn't started by Superman though. It's started by the military, opening fire on the three (who are still on the street, so they're basically opening fire on a small town).
Actually the first thing we see Supes do in this fight, is rescue a pilot, as Faora is targetting the second plane (after the big dude rams the first one). Superman rams Faora just as she is about to hit the plane, thereby saving the pilot.

This is where **** starts to go South. First of all the military decides to level the main street with deadly force whilst there's innocents in those stores and buildings? Really?

Also, Nam-Ek attacking the plane was ripped straight out of the Avengers. It was uncanny and detaching because it's like 'Hey, that's the Hulk!'

They crash into iHop and Superman stands up and immediately looks around at the people there, only to be knocked down by Faora. When they both go at Supes, he's actually trying to get away, but is being pulled back. He then grabs Faora and tries to take her up in the air, but again is pulled down by the big dude. After using his heat vision to get out from underneath them, the military fires again.
The big dude throws a van at a chopper and the pilot falls out. Superman catches him with a "Are you OK?" only to ambushed immediately by the big dude and knocked to the ground.

The start of the scene was fine though I think it's at this point that the whole 'evolution always wins' crap was doled out? Yeah, that was bad dialogue. It was terribly cheesy. Firstly, Superman's getting double teamed so it's not really clear what would've happened one on one. Secondly, what evolution?

From what I understand Krypton was a deteriorating and stagnant society by the team it went kaboom. How was there any evolution if people were being artificially engineered only for specific purposes? I don't get it. Cheap dialogue and zero effect.

The heat vision scene was cool. It was fine but the chopper scene was ******ed. For a guy who flies so ****ing fast, how is it not possible for him to grab the trooper and then swerve to catch the chopper?

It would've made the fight continue far more smoothly since he'd either have made a cool super save or the Kryptonians would've stopped him mid air and gained further advantage. It would cement the conflict of saving versus brawling and stopping them. But it didn't.

Now while our hero is busy with the big dude, Faora takes out some soldiers and is moving in on Hardy. Supes lifts the big dude up in the air and knocks him in to the trains. Thereby getting him away from the buildings and into an area where there seem to be no people around. That looks very deliberate to me.
He then rescues Hardy just as Faora is about to "reward" him. Faora states that "For every human you save, we will kill a million more", which in my mind actually underlines the importance on focussing on the big picture and not individuals.
A train comes flying in, and knocks Superman into a building, and a missile is launched at Faora. This is three (3) times the military has fired at this little town. The fight is over.

Yeah see this is the thing. Our hero ain't really busy with the big dude for a bit because one punch knocks him out of the screen and he only gets back after around fifteen seconds or so. It's not the first time this happened, but it's got really grating and contrived in a manner of 'we need to buy some time to show these guys blowing **** up'.

Clark throws Nam-Ek into an area of the rails where empty carriages are stored. Really? You throw him where he's got basically got on-demand ballistics to hurl back at you? Good job. Oh wait, it's more lazy storytelling to facilitate the next big boom. I'm losing interest at this point.

Okay, the good death sequence. Wow. It was funny. I had a kid sitting next to me, around thirteen years go to me 'doesn't she have all of Superman's powers?' and I confirm this. He replies with 'how is a human getting killed by someone like that a good reward? It'd be like you killing me'. Yep, that's really not a good death. It's playground bullying.

You know, that's fine. I get the concept of seeing the big picture over the little stuff, but that's really not Superman. But I've addressed this with others and we'll put it down to a learning curve for him to balance this.

Yeah, that train. Where did that come from? Oh wait, Clark through a Kryptonian into an area with those trains. Silly him. The military fired down all their **** on a town that had people hiding in those structures in close proximity. Good ****ing move, Military! Way to be portrayed as not stupid and poor judges of delicate situations. Unless this is an Iraq allegory going on, it's lazy and badly written. Not the first time.

The town is a mess, but 95 % of the destruction was done by the military and the Kryptonians. Superman hit the gas station and you could argue that he's responsible for the iHop too. The rest is not by his hand. He performed three direct saves in that fight, but it seems that they don't count to some people, dunno why...? Plus he saves Lois just before this whole thing.
He then rushes back to check on his mother (who I guess he also saved).

Okay first of all, the Kryptonians were flinging stuff at him most of the time. He was just not thinking 'should I have this fight here?' or 'should I throw that guy into a train lot?'. Like I said about the chopper scene, he saved one guy and let a chopper crash even though he could've saved it. But I guess that Nam-Ek punch wouldn't have been possible to write.

You missed one awesomely contrived scene in Smallville. Hardy robotically and totally unconvincingly (in terms of acting, probably because he wanted to laugh) goes 'this man is not our enemy'. Erm...no ****. You didn't need to level half a small town to figure that one out you bozo.

Oh and Lois...Lois. Is it a smart move taking a couple of police officers over to Clark's house whilst he's dressed as Superman? Really? Do you want everyone know to his secret? Well probably, yes. She does.

Metropolis / Earth:
The World Engine is released and must be stopped before it destroys us all. Therefore the focus now HAS to be on stopping the threat. This is common sense. There can be no time wasted saving individuals, as even more people will die while he does that.
I'm fine with him destroying the world engine before going to Metropolis but the scene itself is really badly constructed. The tentacles were unnecessary and just felt too Matrix to me and the sense of danger really really wasn't there. Sure, on my third viewing I got a slight tingle when the rave party sounding gravity beam was closing in on Perry & Co. but it really wasn't dangerous in terms of the overall scene.

His face went all floppy and he was doing his screaming whilst trying to fly schtick but it just felt so damn inevitable. He WILL save the day. Without a doubt. Personally? I would've NOT had the Faora scene and instead had those two folk show up at the World Engine with one of their fighter ships. Granted, the gravity would've messed with them too, but hey, isn't this war? Isn't this where people put their lives on the line. Nope.

After having used all his energy doing "his part" on the other side of the planet (illustrated by the shot of him reaching for the sun, which I loved), he rushes back to Metropolis and saves the plane carrying his ship, just as Zod is about to destroy it.
Zod's ship has to go down, and everyone knows it. If the plane goes down, the plan fails. Superman does his duty and saves the crew on the plane so that they still have a fighting chance.

The reaching on the Sun scene was cool but it was damn ****ing short. More so some emotional music would've really anchored the scene well and even a quick flashback to an image of both his parents would've driven the point home. Kinda like the 'Bruce, why do we fall?' scene in the Dark Knight Rises.

Okay, now maybe it's just me but the convenient flying in on time to intercept a ship thing is getting really really annoying. Not for the fact that he's doing it, which I love, but there's really more ways to shoot a scene. That's not the only way. Off the top of my head they could've gone with Zod going 'target that ship'.

The ship engages and before it, the entire ship shudders and starts reversing downwards. You see Clark at the nose of the ship, pushing it back and downwards towards the Ocean off Metropolis. He's doing his thing! He's taking the ship away from the point of vulnerability and isolating it. I would've loved that with some pumped up music.

Imagine this. He pushes the ship backwards initially and then literally whirls it in turnaround towards the ocean and breaches the hull. He then has the scene as normal but knocks Zod out as the ship heads for the ocean and flies out, leaving it to crash in the water and not in the city where it destroyed even more buildings. That would be a nice lead into for the final battle as well, which could've been done over water or on the shore instead of in a concrete jungle. More potential and variety.

Okay, you're missing some bits here, but to be honest, there was no issues with those scenes. The good death cheese is still there and it's still bollocks though I guess that's Goyer's point. The first time around it wasn't a good death, but this time it is. However, he's really not doing a good job portraying Kryptonians as intelligent folk. They're very silly.

The save you mention below is fine, so I'm just covering it here.

Lois is saved yet again (as it should be i guess) and all that remains now, is Zod! Now Zod really starts out by saying "I have nothing left to live for. My purpose in life is gone. And I'm gonna make you pay!". He initiates the fight and all hell breaks loose. He tells Superman that he will take the humans he loves so much from him, one by one.

Okay, this scene. Whoa, this scene. First of all, why is that everyone in the Daily Planet has this knack of traversing cities in order to make it in time for the next big scene? The convenience is really annoying and it's just so forced that it weighs the film down. You don't necessarily need them all there just to witness something. We're the audience. Not them.

Secondly, the dialogue. Jesus. I would've loved if Snyder just said to Shannon 'look, buddy, some of the dialogue here is dog****, so just improvise and see where it goes' because his abilities are criminally underused for such important scenes. Ditto for Cavill. He just stands there and looks at Zod whilst he talks. I'm not expecting Shakespeare on Ground Zero, but come on...something slightly less reminiscent of Revenge of the Sith would've been really really appreciated.

And then the fight begins. Crash bang.

Zod rams them into the (empty) office building and Zod cuts it in half with his heat vision. After Zod sheds his armor, Superman takes the fight to the sky, where the flying punches occur. It's Zod who brings the fight back down to the buildings, and it's Zod who throws Superman through countless buildings in a phase where our hero is in serious trouble.

They end up in space, where Zod throws a sattelite at Supes and then rams him again, heading back towards earth. As I see it, Superman doesn't get the upper hand before they are just about to hit the building. After the impact Supes has Zod in a headlock and can finally contain him. The rest is history.

Okay, like I said before, this scene was too repetitive. I would've preferred a different location with Zod then trying to force the fight into Metropolis to drive home his point and Clark tries to stop him leading to a battle of the titans. What happens instead is very rehearsed and emotionally disengaging since the only question is 'what happens at the end?' instead of 'how do they get there?'.

How do they get there? They plough down more buildings than Godzilla and it all looks like everything else in every other movie and this on too. Sure, the fight choreography is jawdropping but it's so wasted with the scenery and context that it loses its charm.

Clark takes the fight to the sky, but never considers moving it out of the City. Not one. The fact is that Zod would've fought back. He had to have fought back. But not showing Clark even try this in a hard way really lowers the emotional stakes and makes things repetitive.

The fight wraps up and so on, with like I said before, Clark could've made an attempt whilst coming into the atmosphere to divert the fight. But he didn't, fair play. It was hard. But doesn't it seem all a bit too convenient that they landed in a train station crowded with innocents where the final scene plays itself out as required by the filmmakers? Yes it does.

And there you have it. That's the root of the problem. The writers and filmmakers wanted specific action beats, it's fine. But the truth is that the story of the film was emotionally and visually compromised leading to the action scenes being deemed repetitive.

You know what the issue is? There aren't too many action scenes as such, it's just that the ones present as poorly used. Poorly used to display Clark and the Kryptonians' characters.

The former needed to be put in more difficult situations on an intimate level as well to show the pain of losing people and the latter needed to be intelligent enough to think 'hey, sure, millions dying is an issue, but surely seeing someone die in front of him would hurt more, no?'

Yes, it would. But Zod only seemed to resort to that at the very end! Even that he only did in order to fulfill Snyder's request to see Clark kill Zod. It's contrived.

The saving element like I said isn't the be all and all. It's a part of the problem. He did it, but it didn't feel like the saves we're used to since the film was so preoccupied with getting to the next big punch. Obviously that was compounded by the next big punch being so conveniently placed that the entire context of the action scene is abandoned for super brawling.

Please, let's see something better next time instead of Black vs Blue amidst crashing buildings and shaky cam nausea.
 
what makes individual heroic saves more important than saving an entire planet

like somehow superman is less heroic for not pulling people out of debris when he stopped the human race from being extinct and turned to skulls and ashes

please explain this to me

superman was fighting zod and the kryptopnians aswell as trying to stop the earth from being terraformed into krypton
 
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Go read what I wrote in the other thread. And maybe read what I just wrote too.

Contrived Danger + Statistical Deaths != Emotional Investment.

Contrived Danger + Statistical Deaths = Me Not Giving A Hoot.

Consider it the anti-entertainment equation as far as I'm concerned.
 
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Batman is VERY different from Superman. And Supes was purely offensive in his actions. He was the direct and only cause of the destruction of the gas station, which he did out of anger. The Avengers were just doing their best in a bizarre situation and Whedon made a point of showing them (especially Cap) helping people in the buildings. Nice try though.

Continuing to engage Zod in the middle of the city was much worse though, even if it was more defensive in nature. The writers had multiple (infinite actually) options to give Supes an opportunity to change the venue to an unpopulated area.

You do know the Avengers where fighting a bunch of weak enemies that they could handle. They where in control at all times. There only problem was shutting off the Teseract. They where taking out the Chitari like cockroaches. The Kryptoian where near equal to Superman. It's like saying why didn't' Thor save that fighter pilot from getting destroyed by the Hulk.

lol Superman did try to run on multiple occasions but got ******** every time he tried. He attempted to speed blizz passed Foara in the Ihop after he got knocked down for attacking her and got punished for it. He also try to fly away from the big Kryptonian and he grabed sups leg and punished him also.
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So I guess Faora's just got old fashioned tunnel vision. She's able to see Superman fly at her, but if he's coming from her periphery, she's done for. Fair dos.
 
I wish Superman would have told people to run and show more concern but hey I'm not complain it just a minor thing for me.
Well he did tell the townspeople Of Smallville to find a place of safety when his battle with Faora went outside ,
And he caught the falling pilot .
He saved Hardy from Faora .
They showed Supermans concern where they could .
 
It was pretty minimal in my opinion and was compounded by the matter that he was more than ready to just keep brawling most of the time.

Not holding back is fine, but he never learned to mind his surroundings!
 
hey BlueLantern when you say Nam-Ek you are referring to Tor-An right?
 
The fight I saw had zod fling supes through 4 or 5 highrise buildings at once in one scene. In Another, Zod hit him so hard at one point he knocked supes up the side of a 40 or 50 story building, zod also knocked supes down with a steel girder.
Supes never had the upper hand till the very end.

No, Superman had the upper hand the entire time and he's the one that thrrew Zod though all those buildings(followed by scenes of people running away from falling buildings, that wasn't the gravity beam btw) at his leisure, then when he got bored and or tired he killed zod, in front of a family and children no less.

:o
It's a strawman but it's a pretty darn good one gotta admit.
 

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