Love this IMBD post about the Damage/Death Toll in MOS

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by 4NutzinYoface, Jun 17, 2013.

  1. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what you mean here.

    I saw superman 2, in which zod and his contemporaries continually took coffee breaks while tormenting superman and citizens. It was pretty whack imo. Don't remember superman doing this in the Doomsday fight and doomsday is a fracking moron. In the superman elite fight he had a legion of robots...that's source material for you, for every point you want it prove for you, there is just as much that seems to do the opposite.

    As for your premise, I like it, to be honest, a seasoned superman could conceivably do this....sorta like he did in this movie. When he stops doing it however, I respect then respect the narrative and simply assume he can't any longer. Though I would have preferred if he did.

    Hopefully superman doesn't get caught in head lock when his back turned though...might not end well for the planet.

    The avengers all "landed" in that area? Seemed they just wanted to come and greet Banner. Even Stark says something to the point.
    You're right though I really don't see a problem with it, I'm just using it to illustrate the point. It's a different kind of fight. During the Superman Zod battle there was no point in which superman just decided to land somewhere and have a conversation(and make jokes). That makes this different. Plain and simple.

    Superman and Zod landed where the narration wanted them too. Not sure who is disputing this. And yes, it was so that conveniently impactful and significant ending could happen. Doesn't change my point though does it.

    Let me restate it to be sure:
    More (subjective)down time, more team work. More role partitioning.

    As for the immoveable issue you are having. Batman and bane fight, the battle goes up down and around that area with kicks, shoves, combo breakers and spine injuries.
    Batman and bane have a tug of war, not so much movement. Do you think it's at all plausible that Zod could hold his ground long enough for superman to be pressured by his immediate ultimatum?

    Speaking of avengers, Thor knocking hulk across the helicarrier = to thor /hulk headlock:huh:

    1. Not sure that's a blanket statment(could be wrong)

    2. When did I say everyone?
    Last time you accused me of this I had to correct you as well.

    Take the battle for new york put only one avenger in it and see how much time that one character dedicates to saving individual lives, that's my proposition in a nut shell(Not that that would even compare to fighting a superman like being).
     
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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  2. Supa

    Supa Well-Known Member

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    The destruction pretty much ruined the movie for me.

    For a "realistic" depiction of Superman to have such a scale of death and destruction and then to go to the next scene and pretend it never happened and that it's a happy ending?
    I'm sorry, but no. To just cut to a light-hearted scene at the Daily Planet obliterates all impact the fight had. He doesn't come across as a protector, his little tussle probably just killed thousands, and destroyed the worldwide economy through the sheer cost of repairs!
    And no one in Metropolis cares! It doesn't even seem to matter at all!
    Sure, Lois, go to the ballgame with that reporter, just don't hurt yourself on the ruins of the 20 populated skyscrapers littering the streets! Wouldn't wanna break a heel on those dead bodies that were inevitably thrown around by that World Engine!

    I don't know why we're talking about the Avengers, but when in Rome...
    At least we saw them trying to control the damage, and after the battle, we saw people mourning, alongside those celebrating their saviors. And no skyscrapers collapsed, or were totaled. But the fight still felt big and still felt like the destruction was bad.

    But with Superman, it fails to do that. The movie just happily pretends no one works or lives in skyscrapers, and that entire city blocks can just evacuate at a moments notice, gleefully skipping around falling glass, cars and parts of buildings.
    And afterwords, the city is just totally fine! What damage? Haha! Let's go to a ballgame!

    There should've been something! Something to acknowledge the death toll! A quite relfection by Superman, a vengeful line to Zod like "You've killed so many innocent people, no more!" or even Superman getting some family out of the rubble, and telling them it's over. SOMETHING instead of ignoring all the damage and destruction the very next scene.

    Yeah, fine, Zod was gonna kill the whole planet. But that doesn't mean the millions that just died before Superman arrived don't matter. The Chitauri were gonna kill everyone too, but they still acknowledged that people were killed. And Iron Man wasn't crashing through every building in his way.

    Hulk caused less damage than Superman in the fight.

    The freakin' HULK.

    Who was given orders to smash. And is considered an evil monster by most of the Marvel Universe.

    Superman has his fight in Metropolis and people love him! He doesn't have an established reputation as a superhero yet. As far as the people of Earth now, this is an incredibly powerful alien, who brought several more incredibly powerful aliens to Earth, and they all fought, and leveled a huge chunk of a city that's basically New York.
    If anything, he should come across as the lesser of two evils.

    They don't know who this guy is, or what he can do. The most people know is that this guy is involved in a major tragedy in Metropolis that killed a bunch of people. Especially considering the military's not gonna release all the information, and probably wouldn't want Lois to either.

    The movie said it themselves. Superman scares people.

    At least until he destroys in entire city in a fight, then he's A-OK!

    I really wanted to like this movie. I was excited for it. I got a Man of Steel wallpaper for my phone. The movie even managed to rekindle my childhood interest in Superman.
    But the sheer disaster porn of the final act just shattered it. Simply overkill, enough to make Michael Bay avert his eyes in the mind-numbing trailer fodder action of it all.

    I may give Man of Steel 2 a chance, if there is a sequel, but after this, I can't say I'm excited.
     
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  3. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Well-Known Member

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    You make the distinction that Cap gets to partition the workload to other members of the Avengers. I got the impression by you bringing that up that you believe their battle was easier because of it. Even when you dole out all the responsibilities you still only have 6 guys fighting against a full-scale invasion. The movie made a point of reflecting upon the overhwhelming nature of it after Cap gets blow out of a building and takes a second to look around.

    I'm still missing where in the narrative Superman was incapable because of his "inexperience" as you put it. We're talking about a guy who flew to India and back in mere seconds. And why can't Superman at the age of 33 be concerned with the safety of the public yet? They beat that drum verbally so many times throughout the film, but when the fight breaks out, it's like it went out the window. Supes didn't even make an "attempt" (regardless of the success or lackthereof).

    No they didn't "seem" to come to greet. The whole reason Cap/BW/Hawkeye were in the area originally is because their Quinjet had just crashed and Cap mentioned how they have to get atop Stark Tower to stop the portal. Cap then briefly left to go instruct the police how to protect the civilians. BW and Hawkeye then rescued people in a bus, then became surrounded by Chitauri. At which point Cap returns to help them. Iron Man appeared because Banner turned up and he wanted him to unleash the Hulk on the first Leviathon. Thor showed up to instruct the crew that the device running the cube was impenetrable. The only element I will admit was silly among that whole situation was how Banner turned up, but if I had to guess it was because he was trying to get to the Stark Tower and happened to find the rest of them.
    ..... You keep talking "narrative". Just because it's their "narrative" doesn't make it any less silly. Yet, you patronized the narrative of the Avengers scene.

    How could he hold his ground though? He was just kneeling. He wasn't holding anything. There wasn't a tug of war going on. Superman was draped over him.

    You lost me. You don't think an uppercut from the Mjolnir would send the Hulk flying? Thor put him in the headlock to attempt to subdue him. What is wrong with that? You preferred Hulk suddenly become an immovable object and Thor snap his neck? (Sorry you left me that one :oldrazz:)

    We're not comparing apples to apples when it comes to the heroes of Avengers and their powers compared to the depiction of Superman's in MoS ...... but see that's what I appreciated in the battle of Manhattan because they had a strategy and played up each heroes strength to fit that strategy. It wasn't just a brawl.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  4. GremlinZilla89

    GremlinZilla89 Well-Known Member

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    Why do people accuse Superman of causing all the destruction? Seriously? What the hell? You people are literally making stuff up. Did Superman turn on the World Engine that caused a huge chunk of the city to be destroyed? No. The most destructive thing Supes did the whole movie was smash Zod through a gas station. Everything else was directly caused by Zod and Co. and Supes was reacting to it/trying to stop it. And people are still missing that the finale fight took place in the already decimated portion of the city. No people were present what so ever during the final battle until the very end in the train station. I'm not even trying to be a smartass here. You people who seem to think Superman is at fault or caused all this destruction are either making it up, or payed no attention to the film what so ever.

    And really what do you people want? Do you want the film to not have a legitimate threat? Do you not want to feel like something huge is at stake? Do you want Zod to clear everybody out before he starts the World Engine? Do you want neat, clean, orderly destruction that has no real sense of danger, death or urgency? What? Tell me? Because I cannot understand where all of this is coming from. I'm not talking about wanting Supes to acknowledge the destruction. Thats a different argument (and one I can at least understand although it doesn't bother me) all together. I'm talking about the massive misconception that somehow Superman is the main cause of death and destruction in the film. The only time in the film that people are in the line of fire when Superman is fighting is when Faora threw him into an IHOP, where I might add it is clear he is trying to get away and Faora keeps stopping him. The military doesn't count because they are supposed to be engaging the threat. I'm just...I don't even know...
     
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    Last edited: Jun 18, 2013
  5. sf2

    sf2 Well-Known Member

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    i think it's a perfect setup for the sequel. BLAME THE ALIEN!!!
     
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  6. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    Sadly your keen observation will go unnoticed in light of many trying to justify why this film fails at superman by way of disaster porn.

    It's a sad thing to see so many people lose sense of what actually caused what. There are people out there that are accusing superman of bringing down all those buildings that the towns folk are running away from. I'm not sure if they are being disingenuous to make a point or if they actually believe it.
     
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  7. deanmachine

    deanmachine Member

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    Exactly. It creates a perfect introduction of Luthor (billionaire industrialist, helps rebuild Metropolis, usespublic sentiment of fear against Superman) Thing is, I know it's easy to compare, but the next MOS I think will be much like TDK where public backlash happens against a super hero (in this instance Superman).
     
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  8. Marvin

    Marvin Well-Known Member

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    It's possible to send Cap in to save people when you have ironman and thor busy doing other stuff. With superman he literally had his hands full with zod on a very consistent level.
    I never said anything about this or that being easier. I said that you can have one guy do one thing and have another guy do something else when you have a team.

    "Stark you take all the guys on the perimeter, thor you shoot the portal, hulk you smash things..."
    "I will go help civilians"

    are you disputing this?

    A seasoned superman could do alot better against Zod.
    That's nice that he flew around the world in some make belief time, that's nice that he's 33 and finally in costume. A seasoned superman isn't this guy and a seasoned superman is what you are expecting.

    I don't even care about this point, I was actually addressing how poorly and conveniently staged Superman 2 was since you brought it up... but if we must: Ask yourself, how many times has he been in a fight at the old age of 33? Seriously how many? How many times has he flown?
    In the comics he can approach near light speed levels, do you think he knows how fast he can fly, I mean jor el just told him about testing his limits...Do you think he knows about that infinite mass punch that he learned from the flash or about vibrating through an enemy. Do you see him use his super breath....the list goes on and on.
    A seasoned superman could do alot better against Zod.
    Period.

    And unless you were ignoring the film on purpose, superman saved several lives, mid fight. So yes, he made "an attempt". If that's all it took to make you happy, "an attempt" as you put it, I guess we can stop now..

    Again, the point was unlike superman the Avengers had time and space and disregard to meet up and strategize. Never said anything about it being silly. I said they had that much time to all find there way to a spot in the city, and talk. Superman didn't have that kinda time. Tell me he did so we can argue about it.

    I made a stopping for coffee joke in relation to how much time Cap had to stop and lick his wounds and run around the entire block compared to superman. You keep implying I am calling avengers silly. I'm not, I'll say it again it's a different kind of fight.

    Remember when that waitress comes running out of the building after cap saves her? Please tell me how busy cap looks.
    How much time did superman have to stop and lick his wounds?

    1. They can both fly, kneeling position or not it doesn't seem to matter.
    2. Superman's attention is now on keeping zods laser beams away from innocent people. It goes beyond fighting for position.

    If two people are fighting it about position. If to people are fighting and one is trying to point a gun at the other guys family, it's now about where the gun is pointing and that's where the effort goes. You would think this much is self evident though.

    I did lose you(my fault)
    I said that Thor could knock hulk across a city for all we know. Just like superman can knock Zod across a city. But notice how little moving around Thor can do of the hulk when he has him in a headlock? Not that much. Ergo my point about superman not being able to just move zod across a city just cause he has him in a head lock.

    It was a different type of battle, like I said. Ergo why people need to stop bringing it up when it comes to how many lives were saved. A team can assign roles, some roles can be about saving lives, others about fighting the enemy.

    Notice how Hulk smashed while Black widow was sent to turn off the device itself? Now if this was superman and he was fighting zod alone and there was a device to shut off. I imagine people would be short sighted enough to not see how it's harder for one man fighting doomsday lite all by himself to find time to shut off the device, save people and cause as little damage as possible.

    A team fight isn't the same as a one on one fight.
     
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  9. sf2

    sf2 Well-Known Member

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    i think all they want is to see superman doing multiple task at a same time. and it's sweeter and more emotional to see.
     
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  10. BlueLantern

    BlueLantern Hope Burns Bright

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    Den of Geek's take on Man of Steel

    Hits the notes in terms of what most fans think could have been done better.

    Please note, for those who favour hyperbole and melodrama over simple truths, 'what could have been done better'.

    I'm not saying I hate and neither are they, just improvements in the finished product.

    And for me, that's taking into account his developmental curve as a hero and all the other things mentioned.

    Obviously, none of that's going to remove the excessive reliance on action in the final act but heyho.
     
    #185
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  11. GremlinZilla89

    GremlinZilla89 Well-Known Member

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    I have a feeling if this film was released no more than 10 years ago, this non-issue of the action and destruction wouldn't exist.
     
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  12. Tony Stark

    Tony Stark Armored Avenger!

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    What I don't want is Transformers disaster porn, which is exactly what we got.

    The fact is Superman caused far more harm than he stopped. In Avengers it showed them trying to help people, but even some blamed them for the damage. In MoS Superman was literally putting thousands of people in danger, and in the end everyone is thanking him.
     
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  13. robot

    robot Well-Known Member

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    Can someone tell me, if they were superman, how could they have avoided any of the carnage?

    90% of the carnage was caused by the 'terraforming machines'... and if superman wanted to stop them, he had to go fight some of the Kryptonians (or zod) whom are all equally as powerful as he is.. now, tell me again, how would you do it?
     
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  14. GremlinZilla89

    GremlinZilla89 Well-Known Member

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    How? How did he put thousand of people in danger? Oh, when he stopped the World Engine from killing all human life on Earth? Or when he fought Zod in a clearly abandoned part of the city? Or when he kept the Smallville fight in the street as much as he could? Or when he stopped Zods ship? I guess you wanted Superman to have a cloning ability so that he could be 8 places at once. I guess an actual threatening threat is too much for people to handle? "Oh wait, Zod actually is a real threat in this film? Why? I don't want REAL danger! I want happy danger!"
     
    #189
  15. robot

    robot Well-Known Member

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    Exactly...

    I guess people want Disney to direct all CBMs...

    I ask again, how would anyone do it differently given the circumstances? And tell me how that would have saved more people???
     
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  16. Regthar

    Regthar Member

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    That's stretching it... a lot. :yay:
     
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  17. GremlinZilla89

    GremlinZilla89 Well-Known Member

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    It's not stretching it. It's downright false. The fact there are people so vehemently criticizing something that is not in the film at all is ridiculous. Or they are trolling.
     
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  18. Regthar

    Regthar Member

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    I agree. My initial response was: :doh:
    That just didn't seem like a good way to communicate :cwink:
     
    #193
  19. Tony Stark

    Tony Stark Armored Avenger!

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    how about all the perfectly good conditioned buildings he smashed Zod into? How about that gas station he blew up by flying Zod through one of the gas pumps?

    You're freaking straw dog arguments of "happy danger" don't hold water.
     
    #194
  20. Tony Stark

    Tony Stark Armored Avenger!

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    Are you accusing me of lying or trolling? People who disagree with you are not trolling.
     
    #195
  21. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Well-Known Member

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    Excellent point man. I totally forgot to bring that up about how Whedon chose to show that it wasn't "all is forgotten" after the battle of Manhattan. They showed the contrast of people who supported and people who blamed the Avengers for what happened.

    Where was that in MoS? Surely after destruction like that, some people are going to be irked because after all, it happened because of Supes .... both because his existence drew Zod to Earth and also because he chose to partake in a chaotic brawl. The movie then just forgets all the destruction happened and we get that little tease of Clark working at the Daily Planet. Of course I'll be told that they'll discuss it in the sequel, but that's bumpkiss. The destruction would be on the minds of everyone around there. They would definitely be talking about it.

    This.

    But I'm supposed to believe he wasn't experienced enough yet to be able to do it. I didn't get that from this film at all, considering how he multitasked by shipping off to India in mere seconds to destroy the Terra machine and then back he went to Metropolis.
     
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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2013
  22. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Well-Known Member

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    His response is your standard entry in the "Ohmugod how can you nots like dis amazeball movie?"
     
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  23. Tony Stark

    Tony Stark Armored Avenger!

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    That brings up an interesting question to. It's amazing how quickly the city of Metropolis got the Daily Planet rebuilt after it was brought down to rubble.

    I mean it's been almost 12 years since 9/11 and they're just now getting some new buildings put up. New York really needs to hire some of those Metropolis workers.
     
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  24. Regthar

    Regthar Member

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    I know I'm not the person you asked, but since you're asking:
    You are lying:

    That is not a fact. So either you didn't watch the movie (trolling) or you're lying.

    It's not a matter of different opinions, since the movie shows Superman stopping the World Engine, which would have killed billions if he didn't. He could have snapped a million necks on purpose and still have caused far less harm than that machine.

    You don't like the way this movie played out, that's fair. What's not fair, is making up your own "facts" to support your opinion.
    I can easily understand that this movie rubs some people the wrong way. It would have no matter how they did it. What I don't understand is that the people who dislike it, seem to take their points to the extreme.
     
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  25. Regthar

    Regthar Member

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    It only took Superman a couple of seconds to rebuild the chinese wall (by just looking at it) in The Quest For Peace :woot:
     
    #200

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