Man of Steel Positive Reflections and Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Man of Steel' started by BH/HHH, Nov 14, 2015.

  1. Batmannerism

    Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    .

    yeah, the old "the writers never should have put him in that position" excuse doesn't make any sense to me. it's like saying that certain situations are off the table for certain characters - I think that nearly everything can work, with every character provided they are written in a credible way (particularly one as versatile and popular as Superman - and yes, I totally mean versatile because people who find him one-dimensional either don't understand the character, or have him confused with Captain America).

    The death of Zod was perfectly written - Zod forshadows his own demise by stating his death-wish, it's him that puts Superman in the position of killing him - which is many times better than John Byrne's execution story back in the 1980's, of course I still love that story, because in that situation the execution of Zod and his villainous cohorts makes sense too -but MOS does an even better job.

    I liked this.....
    [​IMG]

    but this makes more sense
    [​IMG]

    I still struggle with Waid's comments from this article

    http://thrillbent.com/blog/man-of-steel-since-you-asked/

    This is because Brandon Routh wasn't fighting a homicidal Kryptonian soldier bent on either killing Clark and wiping out humanity, or being killed himself.
    He didn't have time to protect bystanders because he was too busy fighting for his life. Ugh !


    Like I said, I went into the film, expecting to hate it because Superman doesn't kill. But MOS sold me, while Waid was opting out, I was buying in. This is a different vision of Superman and one that works in today's world. In terms of other choices, I won't even go there, people have done that one to death - because that's what it was, death, either Clark and humanity or Zod.

    As for not struggling to save people, clearly Waid missed the bits where Superman saved the chopper pilot (that wasn't casual at all, as Supes gets nailed afterwards) save Lois in the pod plummetting to Earth, destroy the World Engine (which saved all life on earth), smash the scoutship off course (saving everyone on the plane so they could carry out their mission).

    My overall feeling is that people formed IMPRESSIONS of the film while watching it, that don't necessarily match up with what actually went down.
    That *%&$&* Nick Mundy is particularly bad for this.

    I mean, comments about the "endless destruction" of Zod v Superman ? the fight takes about 5 minutes in total. As for the destruction in Metropolis, in the comics and animated films property damage is the norm !

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpoV5pj1Agw
     
  2. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Spot on post :up:

    Did you listen to what Joe Quesada said on the Fatman on Batman podcast? He just made **** up he said that Superman should have given Zod the codex because that's all he wanted and he would have left. It's like no Joe he wanted to kill everything on the planet and reform it into Krypton. That for me is an example of people having a problem with the film that's not there. They down right stretch the truth and in this case flat out lie to make a point why they don't like the movie.
     
  3. rogbngp

    rogbngp DCEU supporter

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    And Russell Crowe wants to do that! I'd love seeing a prequel movie with him, Ayelet Zurer, and Michael Shannon about Jor-el's life and times on Krypton.
     
  4. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    That would be awesome, shame that Krypton series isn't doing something like this.
     
  5. Dr.

    Dr. Unknown Toronto member

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    Actually, Waid liked MOS’s Jonathan Kent - including his “controversial” self-sacrifice.

    *

    To get “meta” for a moment: I think Superman - as far as general, public perception is concerned - has been in a conceptual rut for a few decades. Many think of him as a hyper-ethical ideal. He doesn’t lie, he rescues kittens and he, himself, will utter the famous “truth, justice and the American way” line without an iota of cynicism. Now, this is all well and good for a symbol on coffee mugs and bumper stickers; and it’s rich subject matter for a scholarly dissertation on Superman as a pop-cultural icon. But it’s an impediment to building a character with any sort of nuance or depth. I.e., there’s a whole host of dramatically interesting scenarios (normal stuff for most protagonists) that many fans deem off-limits - because these challenge Superman’s unimpeachable idealism.

    So I think MOS served as a necessary corrective. Still well within the limits prescribed by the standard hero paradigm, MOS went some way towards de-mystifying and de-sanctifying Superman. One of my favorite lines in the movie:

    Superman (to General Swanwick): You're scared of me because you can't control me. You don't, and you never will. But that doesn't mean I'm your enemy.

    Now, this is a statement of confidence - bordering on bravado and arrogance. But it’s also factually correct. And IMO, it (importantly) creates distance from the prior, boy scout-y/holier-than-thou persona.
     
  6. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Ah I wasn't sure tbh I just remembered there was a point he didn't like the movie from.

    Man of Steel definitely brought Superman into the modern world which he needed to be.
     
  7. Black Narcissus

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    Crowe really brought it. man. It had been awhile since I saw him give a damn. I truly love the image of Superman sinking into the pile skulls. Haunting imagery right there. The first Superman movie that made me give a damn about the character.
     
  8. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Yeah Crowe was definitely into this role, from the sounds of it he had a lot of fun aswell.
     
  9. Batmannerism

    Batmannerism Super-unknown

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    Yeah, that was great. Superman showing some cojones in the face of authority.

    I've always thought of Superman as quite a serious character, given that sometimes he literally has the weight of the world on his shoulders- I loved Reeve in the role (my favourite Superman) but always found him a little "light."

    I hope that he gets the treatment he deserves in B v S.

    Hey, for today's positive thought, this:

    [​IMG]

    All seems lost, metropolis is being flattened (and Perry, Steve and Jenny are about to be) but somehow Superman digs deep and saves the day. Nice !
     
  10. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    But that can't be true because people are constantly saying Superman didn't save anybody in Man of Steel :oldrazz:

    In all seriousness I love that scene so much, all seems lost and somehow he finds the strength to defeat the world engine. The part after that where everything is peaceful and Superman's hand reaches towards the rising Sun is a beautiful shot.
     
  11. Thoix

    Thoix Registered

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    Just got done watching Man of Steel and I still absolutely love it. I really have no personal issues with it, but I always like reading constructive criticism about why this film is so divisive. I think Henry Cavill is perfect as Clark Kent and Superman. His portrayal alone of the character makes my head scratch whenever I read Man of Steel was too dark. I also slam my head into my desk every time someone calls Superman a murderer and doesn't try to save anybody in this film. Cavill is the perfect embodient for this modern Superman and I wouldn't have it either other way. I can't get enough of the rest of the splendid cast such as Amy Adam as Lois Lane, Michael Shannon as General Zod, Russel Crowe as Jor-El, Kevin Costner and Diane Lane as Jonathan and Martha Kent, and others. Absolutely everyone brings to "A"-game to the table and the characterizations are rich with depth.

    The only real issue with the film I still have has to do with the actual script by David S. Goyer. Although he doesn't do a bad job, there are easily areas that could have used improvements. I think Zack Snyder directed Man of Steel just fine and Hans Zimmer turned in one of his best scores for the film. As far as I'm concerned, the action is all top notch and I love how the film doesn't pull any punches.

    I'm definitely going to be watching this again in about three months, along with all Superman/Batman films, before the release of Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice.
     
  12. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    Nice one :up:

    Pretty much agree with it all and even though I love the film myself I agree that Goyer's script at times needed a little work. Although I think he also deserves praise for the great things he did with the film aswell.
     
  13. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Darksider

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    Well I agree with you both! Sure the movie has flaws, but the good far outweighs the bad and overall it's a movie I absolutely love.
     
  14. Thoix

    Thoix Registered

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    Oh yeah, Goyer definitely still deserves praise overall for his work on Man of Steel. I have no issue with any of his story elements; I just think the script could have been just touched up a bit to make it truly incredible.
     
  15. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    I agree
     
  16. the5timechamp

    the5timechamp Registered

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    I still love the movie
    I love how "big" the events of the movie feel.. In prior superman films you can feel the writers struggling to find a way to create a threat for such a powerful character, as a result the films felt small and never met their full potential..

    Superman is Sci-Fi and MOS did a great job in conveying that, the films overall tone and cinematography are wonderful.

    I get the arguments about Superman representing light and hope and that the color palette of the film should reflect that... But I also in MOS see the man who raised Superman and his cynical view of society, it is reflected throughout the film and in the behavior of many of the characters including Superman... Lois is forced a little too much, but Im not going to complain about getting more Amy Adams (or Diane Lane).

    Zod is great as well.. Not my favorite CBM, but it trumps much of the MCU and previous Superman movies...
     
  17. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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  18. DarkKnight

    DarkKnight Registered

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    I am one of the true lovers of this film and watched it more than once in the theater. I instantly fell in love with this film. After a few years of watching it over and over again I still absolutely love it! The movie no matter how many times I watch it continues to give me goose bumps and makes me "choke" up in certain scenes.

    The imagery in this movie was amazing, Krypton I thought was a beautiful new adaption/rendition from previous Kryptons we have seen in the past. It felt more alive, I loved how it showed more than just humanoid life on the planet. We got to see animals from both land and air, I loved the organic feel if the Kryptonian clothing and weaponry. The advanced technology, everything about it was amazing, I was smiling ear to ear watching this in the theater and still do today.

    I know one of the big complaints from other people that disliked the movie was that they felt it had no heart and no real drama. I could not disagree more. Everyone is indeed entitled to their opinions of course, but the "You are my son" and "the world is to big mom", Clark being bullied as a child and adult and always having to hold back sends chills up my spine every time. Maybe its because I can personally relate to some of this, but regardless it really touches me.

    The actions sequences, WOW! I mean just WOW! I personally (and several friends of mine) have always said we wanted to see Superman do more than just catch falling planes, helicopters and cars. Nothing against the previous Superman films that were guilty of this, I truly love them all (well, love the first 2 and really really liked SR, III and IV left a lot to be desired but I still enjoyed them), but what one or two physical threats Superman had up until MOS just didn't feel very threatening. Superman seemed to dispose of them somewhat easily. Granted in Superman II for its time, the Zod vs Superman battle I'm sure was impressive, but for me it was still lacking. But my friends and myself always said we wanted an live action Superman that actually fought a true physical equal threat, we wanted a battle on the lines of what we watched in Superman the animated series and Dragonball Z. WOW! did Man of Steel ever so truly deliver on that. again, I was and still do smile ear to ear when watching the Smallville and Metropolis battle in MOS.

    I know the battles in MOS brought up a lot of controversy, people complained they destroyed too much, too many deaths, Superman didn't try to save people. etc. etc. Again, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I cannot disagree more. During these battles in MOS Superman saved a few soldiers during the Smallville fight, one was falling from the helicopter, one was about to be smashed by the giant Kryptonian (I think his name was Namek). He even tried to save more but each time he tried Namek and Faora was there grabbing him and pummeling him into the ground. Then in the battle of Metropolis, people complained Superman didn't bother saving people and was being careless of his surroundings with his fight with Zod. The only thing I thought may could truly been careless was Superman jumping over the sliding and exploding tanker into that one building. The rest of the time I honestly believed that Superman was doing absolutely everything he could do to stop Zod and they had already mentioned to Superman earlier in the film that for every person Superman saves they will kill millions more. Not to mention that during the start of the battle of Metropolis, Superman flies halfway around the globe to destroy the World Engine. Had Superman not done that, all of Metropolis and MILLIONS more would have died. Superman saved humanity in this film and saved thousands in just Metropolis in doing so. So despite some peoples feeling on these fights, I thought they were glorious and honestly feel Superman was doing everything in his power to save the world and to stop Zod. I still absolutely love this film! its one of my top 3 favorite Superhero films to date and that says a lot!

    In closing, I'll finish with one other thing I loved about this film. Clark Kent. I like how they made him more relatable to todays "middle" class. He was just a good ole farm boy that wore blue jeans and sipped on a ice cold beer helping his mother clean the kitchen. I'm from the south, this is very relatable to me, I know the new Clark not being a bumbling "nerd" bothered some people but not me. This Clark reminded me more of the Animated Series Clark which I really liked.

    So, Man of Steel to me is still a very good and enjoyable film and one of my personal favorites in many aspects. When a film, such as MOS, can continue giving me goose bumps and get almost teary eyed after years of watching it, that movie has won me over!
     
  19. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    That's a great review are thoughts are very much aligned
     
  20. Greeneyes

    Greeneyes The World Isn't Ready

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    Seeing people on the site mentioning once again that they don't like Man of Steel reminded me of something. A rare fable was discovered recently, a high quality, amazingly well written tale of hardship that leads eventually to hope and salvation.

    It was found 'online' on the internet of computer systems and nobody knows who wrote it. All people know is that it makes men cry and it makes women cry too. No one knows what it makes children do as no one has ever asked them.

    If I remember correctly it goes something like this.......

    ........I see every comic book movie ever made as kids in a big classroom, and there in the middle is little Man of Steel, and all around him in the other seats are all the other movies, I see Iron Man 3 is sitting next to him and on his other side is Age of Ultron, behind him I see Green Lantern who looks a little ill.

    The classroom is pretty calm and quiet and there at the front is a teacher sitting in a la z boy smoking a big fat blunt, who looks suspiciously like that Silent Bob guy...

    Every few weeks, the classroom door opens and in walk a few guys carrying long sticks, they make their way through the room and chairs, passing little Ant Man and then Batman and Robin who also look a little off colour, much like the Lantern child.

    They stop a little way off from Man of Steel, actually two rows of chairs behind him, close to Deadpool, who looks really smug for some reason. They then start to poke Man of Steel with their sticks. *poke* *poke*

    Man of Steel says ouch, and asks them why they are poking him with their sticks. The stick guys say in unison..

    "We don't like you".

    And go back to poking little Man of Steel. The teacher eventually looks up from what looks like a Batman comic, and asks the stick guys to stop and please leave.

    So this happens regularly for quite a while, and so Man of Steel asks the stick guys

    "Why don't you poke at someone else?, what did I do to you to make you so upset and angry?".

    The stick guys all say in unison,

    "We don't like you and because we don't like you, we will keep on poking you".

    Man of Steel asks

    "But surely you must dislike some of the other films in the class too, I can't be the only one who you dislike?".

    Teacher Bob notices and asks the stick guys to leave.

    3 years later, the stick guys are still in the classroom and still they only poke their sticks into little Man of Steel. Man of Steel now at the end of his tether asks Teacher Bob for some help.

    Teacher Bob says

    "Hey stick guys! Just you stop that poking now!"

    The stick guys stop poking Man of Steel and look over at the stoned overweight Teacher

    "Listen stick guys, if Man of Steel was a real living child, he would be in therapy from all this non stop bullying that has gone on for three years, none of you bully and try to hurt any other film kids in here, it's wrong and you need to take a good hard look at yourself"

    The stick guys all look at each other and say in unison

    "Well we don't like Man of Steel and it's our opinion and right to keep poking at him for as long as we want"

    Teacher Bob thinks long and hard..

    "Stick guys, if Man of Steel was a real person, you guys would have been arrested for repeated bullying and mental cruelty, you should be ashamed that you spend so much time repeatedly poking at something that exists, has existed for ages, and will never change to something you will like, you never poke your sticks like that at any other film children in here, why is that?"

    The stick guys look at each other and say to Teacher Bob

    "But we don't like Man of Steel and we will keep on and on forever if we have to because Man of Steel has hurt us so badly and deeply in our lives that we have to keep on doing this repeatedly for 3 years and counting"

    Teacher Bob shakes his head, realising that the stick guys are too deeply hurt by MoS to ever be normal again.

    Bob turns to Man of Steel..

    "Hey Superman" says teacher Bob.

    Man of Steel looks confused as teacher Bob continues,

    "Yeah, I said Superman" ..

    "Why are you calling me that sir?" Man of Steel asks.

    "Because you are Superman! I see that clearly, so do most people and we love you"

    Man of Steel sheds one single tear slowly down his cheek as he says emotionally..

    "But I'm hated and not right, I'm not the right Superman!, I kill people and never show that I save or care for others!"

    "And I don't smile to the camera in orbit!"

    Man of Steel starts to cry. The stick guys snicker..

    "Dont you dare say that Superman!"

    Bob says with anger, his 'blunt' vibrating with his passion...the ash falling slowly from the glowing tip, almost glistening, like tears in the rain..

    "Your heart and passion and love is there for all to see, you are a hero, it's just unfortunate that some do not have the ability to see it, to just... let it in"

    *Bob winks to camera*

    "Okay!"

    Says Superman, with regained hope and almost regalness

    "I'll not let the vocal minority of stick guys get me down, I have people to save Teacher Bob, and cats and kittens and children in mittens! and thank you for helping me see the reality of things, you are the best teacher ever Bob"

    Bob salutes Superman with his half smoked J, and as the Man of Steel rises majestically into the red and orange twilight skies, he whispers..

    "Anytime Clark...anytime.."



    :super:



    the end
     
  21. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    That was an awesome read :funny:

    I think we've just come to a point with MOS where it's all been said. The haters really need to let it go and move on.
     
  22. Decepticonus

    Decepticonus Registered

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    I went in not knowing what to expect, but I was signed on because Nolan was producer, Goyer the writer and I loved TDK trilogy, including the last installment. Plus, I'm a big Snyder fan - I loved 300, Watchmen and even Sucker Punch, **** the haters.

    Originally, not a big Superman fan. Only potrayal before I cared for was Bruce Timm's. I like Chrisotpher Reeves, but I didn't like any of the original movies at all but not due to Reeves. Timm's I felt was quite human and not perfect. My all time favorite scene was the "He'll [Brainiac] blow it [Apokolips] up... GOOD!" to Darkseid. I was like holy **** Superman, no bad, you're not supposed to be like that. Or how he desperately wanted to kill Luthor at the end of JLU Season 1 but didn't. This was a conflicted Superman and I dug that.

    Now this movie I loved. It brought Superman into a contemporary world where people would fear him and we don't live in this apple pie, American fantasy of good feelings, of generic villains and dumb civilian women. The opening scene on Krypton blew me away, it was vastly different. It felt almost ancient like Romans or something but gone through some sci-fi/contemporary prism. Russel Crowe as Jor-El bought me right away. I loved the dedication of him and idealism, he knew this planet was doomed but knew there was hope and at the same time was looking to take action and not sit on his hands about it unlike the Kryptonian government (hmm, reminds me of something...)
    Then Zod, sorry but don't care for Stamp. He was entertaining, but threatening and interesting he was not. I enjoy villains who think what they are doing is right, who operate in a more gray area. To him it was if I have to pick between my people or another peoples' existence, I choose my own, I don't want to but what choice have I?

    This is the first time I liked Lois. She wasn't throwing herself into danger and all die hard about getting the story. When Clark told her to drop it and explained why, she did. She was more human I felt and none of that annoying spunky attitude. Sorry guys, I am just not a Lois fan.

    The action and effects were great, especially in conjuction with Hans Zimmer's score. The destruction never bothered me at all. This is Superman, he's not always subtle and I feel everything has already been mentioned on this. But personally I prefer stories where there are stakes, consequences, sacrifices. Superman save the day, YAY! But Metropolis is destroyed, who knows how many people died and you had to take a life. I hate happy endings but I do not want sad, hollow, empty endings like Requiem or Revolutionary Road, and Man of Steel does not fall into that.

    In the end, safe to say Henry Cavill is MY Superman.
     
  23. Decepticonus

    Decepticonus Registered

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    Thank you for mentioning this. My mind went straight to this image when people first started whining about Zod's death. I'm assumed EVERYONE, not just movie critics but even comic book fans don't actually read the comics. And anyone can do a simple search on google or go to wiki to find out and go "Oh, Superman has killed before."

    It was interesting that Michael Shannon defended it, saying if Superman hadn't killed his character then he would see him as a man with no convictions. And I'm reminded when Bruce Timm commented on his JL: Gods and Monsters cause his characters killed claiming that police officers and soldiers when faced with a certain situation will kill the criminal if necessary, but we cannot apply that to superheroes because.... reasons. But we don't damn our civil servants for it.
     
  24. Greeneyes

    Greeneyes The World Isn't Ready

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    Haha, cheers man :up:

    Very true. Some find it hard to let go or change, but that's the nature of the universe.

    I was going to post that 'rare fable' on the main BvS pages if there was any hating going on.

    Maybe I should post it on the skepticism thread next time it gets mental and see what kind of reaction it gets.

    What do you think man?
     
  25. BH/HHH

    BH/HHH You Are My World

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    My advice stay out of there lol

    Makes me laugh how some are using it to slag off MOS again yet it's about skeptiscm for BvS. I think some don't understand what been skeptical actually means and instead use it to slate things. I also get the feeling the Nolan lovers who dislike MOS and thinks he can do no wrong would love MOS if Nolam had directed it. Even if it had turned out the exact same.
     
    #50 BH/HHH, Feb 24, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2016

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