Man speaks English, so landlord makes him take a hike

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

yeah.
why the focus on it?
anyone ever been to Chinatown in San Fran?

The focus on it from me comes from the fact that is what I am around.

But the concept applies to everyone, not just Spanish speakers.

 

[hammy]

yeah.
why the focus on it?
anyone ever been to Chinatown in San Fran?

Not in San Fran, but elsewhere. Same thing. The ethnicity or language is irrelevant. It's the learning of their new language that counts.

 

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

I disagree that they never need to.

As for why it bothers me, because it's stupid. Common sense dictates that if you make your home in a new country, you learn the language of that country. I've answered your question, now let me ask you one. Do you actually believe that is unreasonable? That if one sets up housekeeping (I'm not talking about a tourist who spends a few weeks here, I'm talking about someone who comes here with the intention of making this their home) do you actually think it's an outrageous expectation, that they make an effort to learn the language?

As to how it effects me personally, it's more of a question of how it effects society. It's not healthy for people to be so stupid or so lazy or so disrespectful of their new country that they don't want to bother to learn the language. It's also a matter of safety. As I have said before, I don't want to be driving the roads with people who can't read the signs. I don't want to be hit by a driver who can't understand when I ask him or her for their insurance information. I don't want to have to pay higher taxes so that children who grow up in non-English speaking households can have their own teachers. There are LOTS of other languages spoken here, not just Spanish. And that's fine, as long as those speaking them also learn English. That same concept applies to things like government workers, 911 operators and emergency personnel, medical facilities, etc. who are all overburdened when people needing their services can't even communicate with them. It's ridiculous. If you can't see that, then you just don't see the common sense in it. But I'd appreciate an answer to my question.

Exactly man.

 

[Addendum]

Not in San Fran, but elsewhere. Same thing. The ethnicity or language is irrelevant. It's the learning of their new language that counts.

Simple english can be picked up over time through interaction with others, more often that not at work. Hell, some people can pick up english by watching television. And while that person may know just enough english to get by and pay their bills, they might not understand Shakespeare's plays in the King James english, or Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in the old english. But unless that person is working in the literature field, they don't have to understand Shakespeare or Chaucer.

And if I had to move to another country that doesn't speak english, while I do have the time to sit down and take a course to learn that language, I wouldn't worry about not knowing it since I could pick up the basics over time.

Yeah

 

[Darthphere]

I like how 8 different people are using the same 3 arguments.

Please, stop using the road sign example, it's only making you look dumb.

 

[jaguarr]

I disagree that they never need to.

As for why it bothers me, because it's stupid. Common sense dictates that if you make your home in a new country, you learn the language of that country. I've answered your question, now let me ask you one. Do you actually believe that is unreasonable? That if one sets up housekeeping (I'm not talking about a tourist who spends a few weeks here, I'm talking about someone who comes here with the intention of making this their home) do you actually think it's an outrageous expectation, that they make an effort to learn the language?

If they live in an insulated community where everyone speaks their native language, or they are able to function fine without learning the language, then no...they shouldn't have to learn English and it's ridiculous and arrogant for anyone to think otherwise.

As to how it effects me personally, it's more of a question of how it effects society. It's not healthy for people to be so stupid or so lazy or so disrespectful of their new country that they don't want to bother to learn the language. It's also a matter of safety. As I have said before, I don't want to be driving the roads with people who can't read the signs. I don't want to be hit by a driver who can't understand when I ask him or her for their insurance information. I don't want to have to pay higher taxes so that children who grow up in non-English speaking households can have their own teachers. There are LOTS of other languages spoken here, not just Spanish. And that's fine, as long as those speaking them also learn English. That same concept applies to things like government workers, 911 operators and emergency personnel, medical facilities, etc. who are all overburdened when people needing their services can't even communicate with them. It's ridiculous. If you can't see that, then you just don't see the common sense in it. But I'd appreciate an answer to my question.

You missed the whole conversation about having to pass a written exam to get a driver's license didn't you? Or how all road signs are based on symbols, colors and shapes that don't require people to understand English to understand the signs. Seriously, all your argument amounts to is "I just don't like it that they don't speak English". Would it be easier for everyone if they would learn English? Sure. But it's not a dire, burning necessity as so many people living in this country have proven a million times over already by living here happily and successfully without ever learning English.

jag

 

[Darthphere]

She'd like an answer to her question Jag, but I'm still looking for it.

I also love, LOVE the insurance information scenario. Nell already pointed out that we all drive without licenses and probably wouldn't have insurance. We'd probably just kill you.

 

[jaguarr]

I like how 8 different people are using the same 3 arguments.

Please, stop using the road sign example, it's only making you look dumb.

Yeah, it's pretty much variations on these three arguments:

"It's inconvenient to me that they don't speak English."

"They drive around without speaking English, so they don't understand the roadsigns that are clearly marked with easy to understand colors, shapes and symbols that any four year old can comprehend."

"I don't like that they won't learn English."




jag

 

[Darthphere]

Yeah, it's pretty much variations on these three arguments:

"It's inconvenient to me that they don't speak English."

"They drive around without speaking English, so they don't understand the roadsigns that are clearly marked with easy to understand colors, shapes and symbols that any four year old can comprehend."

"I don't like that they won't learn English."




jag

Funny thing is, as a hispanic man living in the United States, I think it is beneficial that they learn English, just the same way I think it's beneficial to learn Spanish or some other second language. But I stop at the the thought that we should somehow be FORCED into learning a language. Last time I checked we didn't learn native american languages, we just slaughtered them and took their lands. Yes, the Native American argument is cheesy, but valid. And considering that we pretty much did the same thing for the lands inhabited by as Nell calls them "scum", karma has a funny way of working.

 

[jaguarr]

Funny thing is, as a hispanic man living in the United States, I think it is beneficial that they learn English, just the same way I think it's beneficial to learn Spanish or some other second language. But I stop at the the thought that we should somehow be FORCED into learning a language. Last time I checked we didn't learn native american languages, we just slaughtered them and took their lands. Yes, the Native American argument is cheesy, but valid. And considering that we pretty much did the same thing for the lands inhabited by as Nell calls them "scum", karma has a funny way of working.

Well, the concept of "it's a free country" and "choice" seem to be eluding some folks. They have this crazy idea that everyone should learn English or be deported. Most of them are, ironically, barely coherent in their own use of the language, which creates an interesting ethical dilemma in which one must ask whether these people should also be forced to leave the country along with the rest of the people who do not speak English. Never mind the insane amount of tax dollars that would go into funding forced education, enforcement of non-English speaking people attending these classes, the overcrowding of prisons or the strain on the already overworked INS by having to imprison or deport these people if they don't, won't or can't comply, and the always required competency exams to ensure that they'd learned the acceptable amount of minimally required "official language" in order to remain in this country. Of course there's administrative overhead involved in actually determining what that acceptable minimal amount is, how the tests are constructed and administered, etc. In reality, it's a nice little pipe dream they have there but it's absolutely and completely unrealistic as far as implementation goes. Of course, that's overlooking the fact that it completely overlooks everything this country was built on and is supposed to stand for in the way of freedom and the right to live your life the way you want to.

jag

 

[Darthphere]

Well, the concept of "it's a free country" and "choice" seem to be eluding some folks. They have this crazy idea that everyone should learn English or be deported. Most of them are, ironically, barely coherent in their own use of the language, which creates an interesting ethical dilemma in which one must ask whether these people should also be forced to leave the country along with the rest of the people who do not speak English. Never mind the insane amount of tax dollars that would go into funding forced education, enforcement of non-English speaking people attending these classes, the overcrowding of prisons or the strain on the already overworked INS by having to imprison or deport these people if they don't, won't or can't comply, and the always required competency exams to ensure that they'd learned the acceptable amount of minimally required "official language" in order to remain in this country. Of course there's administrative overhead involved in actually determining what that acceptable minimal amount is, how the tests are constructed and administered, etc. In reality, it's a nice little pipe dream they have there but it's absolutely and completely unrealistic as far as implementation goes. Of course, that's overlooking the fact that it completely overlooks everything this country was built on and is supposed to stand for in the way of freedom and the right to live your life the way you want to.

jag

Beautiful post.

 

[Memphis Slim]

Originally Posted by casey
I disagree that they never need to.

As for why it bothers me, because it's stupid. Common sense dictates that if you make your home in a new country, you learn the language of that country. I've answered your question, now let me ask you one. Do you actually believe that is unreasonable? That if one sets up housekeeping (I'm not talking about a tourist who spends a few weeks here, I'm talking about someone who comes here with the intention of making this their home) do you actually think it's an outrageous expectation, that they make an effort to learn the language?

As to how it effects me personally, it's more of a question of how it effects society. It's not healthy for people to be so stupid or so lazy or so disrespectful of their new country that they don't want to bother to learn the language. It's also a matter of safety. As I have said before, I don't want to be driving the roads with people who can't read the signs. I don't want to be hit by a driver who can't understand when I ask him or her for their insurance information. I don't want to have to pay higher taxes so that children who grow up in non-English speaking households can have their own teachers. There are LOTS of other languages spoken here, not just Spanish. And that's fine, as long as those speaking them also learn English. That same concept applies to things like government workers, 911 operators and emergency personnel, medical facilities, etc. who are all overburdened when people needing their services can't even communicate with them. It's ridiculous. If you can't see that, then you just don't see the common sense in it. But I'd appreciate an answer to my question.

Logical clear thinking is is against the law on these boards. Tread carefully.

 

[Memphis Slim]

But at some point, you gotta move on. Don't keep beating your head against the wall.

Waste of time and energy.

 

[PemLam]

If they live in an insulated community where everyone speaks their native language, or they are able to function fine without learning the language, then no...they shouldn't have to learn English and it's ridiculous and arrogant for anyone to think otherwise.



You missed the whole conversation about having to pass a written exam to get a driver's license didn't you? Or how all road signs are based on symbols, colors and shapes that don't require people to understand English to understand the signs. Seriously, all your argument amounts to is "I just don't like it that they don't speak English". Would it be easier for everyone if they would learn English? Sure. But it's not a dire, burning necessity as so many people living in this country have proven a million times over already by living here happily and successfully without ever learning English.

jag

I agree with much of what you're saying Jag, but I do have a question. Using the example of a secular community like you've mentioned, with little or no interaction outside of their community, do you advocate that police officers and other emergency response personnel that may have to go to those areas be required to learn the language? Unless these neighborhoods are hiring their own *insert foreign language here* only speaking officers, they will have a need to interact outside their own secluded areas.

This debate on "learn our language or get out" has merit, but it doesn't/can't detract from the fact there is a blatant equal opportunity concern. This shop owner is being removed primarily because he doesn't speak spanish; yes, I know the property owner said he's also been late on his rent but anyone that reads it should be able to understand that's just the excuse...hell, he admits he's got an agenda. Do you think minority groups would sit idly by if this were a white anglo-saxon saying the hispanic tenants need to get out because I want only other white anglo-saxon's?

 

[Tanin]

I just hate the Spanish speakers in my area that get mad at me for not knowing Spanish. I live in a very English speaking county with like 4 or 5 Spanish speaking families.

Don't want to learn English here? Fine!
But don't give me **** for not knowing Spanish, or any other language for that matter!

 

[Memphis Slim]

I agree with much of what you're saying Jag, but I do have a question. Using the example of a secular community like you've mentioned, with little or no interaction outside of their community, do you advocate that police officers and other emergency response personnel that may have to go to those areas be required to learn the language? Unless these neighborhoods are hiring their own *insert foreign language here* only speaking officers, they will have a need to interact outside their own secluded areas.

This debate on "learn our language or get out" has merit, but it doesn't/can't detract from the fact there is a blatant equal opportunity concern. This shop owner is being removed primarily because he doesn't speak spanish; yes, I know the property owner said he's also been late on his rent but anyone that reads it should be able to understand that's just the excuse...hell, he admits he's got an agenda. Do you think minority groups would sit idly by if this were a white anglo-saxon saying the hispanic tenants need to get out because I want only other white anglo-saxon's?

DANGER! DANGER!!
"common sense alert!!!"


WATCH OUT FOR FLYING BIGOT CARD TO BE HURLED YOUR WAY!!!!

Seriously though, your points make so much sense. Especially concerning emergency workers. It's as if they want the benefits of this society (heck, that's why they left their original home) but don't want to do the minimum things that are required of even it's natives. Want cake and eat it too.

And better believe some non-english speaking family would file a law suit against the city if the emrgency worker misunderstood something and diagnosed the problem wrong because of the language barrier. Our firefighters have enuff pressure on them already.

 

[LexCorp]

That sounds pretty damn racist.

COOL

 

[PemLam]

DANGER! DANGER!!
"common sense alert!!!"


WATCH OUT FOR FLYING BIGOT CARD TO BE HURLED YOUR WAY!!!!

Seriously though, your points make so much sense. Especially concerning emergency workers. It's as if they want the benefits of this society (heck, that's why they left their original home) but don't want to do the minimum things that are required of even it's natives. Want cake and eat it too.

And better believe some non-english speaking family would file a law suit against the city if the emrgency worker misunderstood something and diagnosed the problem wrong because of the language barrier. Our firefighters have enuff pressure on them already.

I like the robot...that's from my era of television. t:

Memphis, there is no REQUIREMENT for anyone to learn english, so everyone has to accept the risks/limitations associated with their choice not to learn the predominately spoken language of the country they are in. Unless/until there is an official national language identified, we're all just going to have to press on with the status quo.

 

[LexCorp]

Bottom line even if we all spoke the same lanuage we would find something else to pick on.

 

[jaguarr]

I agree with much of what you're saying Jag, but I do have a question. Using the example of a secular community like you've mentioned, with little or no interaction outside of their community, do you advocate that police officers and other emergency response personnel that may have to go to those areas be required to learn the language? Unless these neighborhoods are hiring their own *insert foreign language here* only speaking officers, they will have a need to interact outside their own secluded areas.

So, my brother is a cop. And, I have several friends who are cops. All of them speak Spanish fluently because there is a high percentage of Spanish speaking people in this area. My wife and I also have friends who are cops in the Little Odessa section of NYC and they speak Russian fluently, one because he grew up there and the other because he knew he needed to be able to do so to make his job easier. Is it inconvenient for them to have to learn another language? Possibly. But it's a hell of a lot more practical than dreaming up some impossible to implement and enforce idea of forcing everyone in this country to learn English with the threat of some sort of repercussion like imprisonment or deportation as a result. Is it an ideal situation? Absolutely not and I've never said as much. Would it be better if everyone spoke English (and we've got quite a few natural born U.S. citizens who speak their own regional version of English that makes communication with them difficult as well)? Absolutely. However, this IS supposed to be a free country, founded on the idea that people can be whoever and whatever they want to be here and live life the way they want to, by their own free will. I get a little bit worried when I see people starting to advocate trampling all over that basic tenet of our society; particularly for something that affects them so very little.

This debate on "learn our language or get out" has merit, but it doesn't/can't detract from the fact there is a blatant equal opportunity concern. This shop owner is being removed primarily because he doesn't speak spanish; yes, I know the property owner said he's also been late on his rent but anyone that reads it should be able to understand that's just the excuse...hell, he admits he's got an agenda. Do you think minority groups would sit idly by if this were a white anglo-saxon saying the hispanic tenants need to get out because I want only other white anglo-saxon's?

The situation with the shop owner is sort of the same situation in reverse, though, isn't it? He's being told "learn Spanish or get out", essentially, which isn't right, either. To me, the debate on "learn English or get out" has no merit because it goes directly against the grain of what this country is supposed to represent and completely impossible to enact and enforce anyway. It's a giant straw dog as far as issues go.

DANGER! DANGER!!
"common sense alert!!!"


WATCH OUT FOR FLYING BIGOT CARD TO BE HURLED YOUR WAY!!!!

Newsflash, Sparky: Saying that you hate a group of people because they don't speak your language and that they should be imprisoned or deported if they won't *IS* bigoted. :duh: Lost In Space was a good show, though.

Seriously though, your points make so much sense. Especially concerning emergency workers. It's as if they want the benefits of this society (heck, that's why they left their original home) but don't want to do the minimum things that are required of even it's natives. Want cake and eat it too.

Land of the free, home of the brave....but only if you speak English. Nice.

And better believe some non-english speaking family would file a law suit against the city if the emrgency worker misunderstood something and diagnosed the problem wrong because of the language barrier. Our firefighters have enuff pressure on them already.

Maybe, maybe not. But, please....give me an example of this happening. You're running around like Chicken Little over this "issue", here (mostly just saying inflammatory things in response to other people's comments to keep the arguments going rather than really providing anything new), like it's some sort of new phenomenon that we all have to suddenly contend with. There have been people living in this country who didn't speak English since the country STARTED. It doesn't seem to have caused such a major issue for these emergency services folks to date. There's no sudden crisis because of it. So, please, give me some examples of how this is now such a big issue because it's caused widespread problems that have resulted in tragedy and lawsuits.

I like the robot...that's from my era of television. t:

Memphis, there is no REQUIREMENT for anyone to learn english, so everyone has to accept the risks/limitations associated with their choice not to learn the predominately spoken language of the country they are in. Unless/until there is an official national language identified, we're all just going to have to press on with the status quo.

So, what if Congress does decide to make English our "official" language. What then? What does that change? Will it force people to learn it? No. Will we force people to learn it or suffer the consequences? Entirely unfeasible from a cost and manpower standpoint. So what will that do? Make people like Celldog and casey feel all warm and fuzzy that English is the "official" language? It sure as hell won't change anything else.

Here's the problem, though; we're talking about imposing the will of a subgroup of people on another subgroup of people, FORCING them to be like the subgroup of people who wants to impose that will. Nobody else sees a problem with that? Why don't we just force them to be Christian while we're at it? And Republican, too? And let's force them to do certain jobs as well. Oh, and we should only allow them to have one child per family, preferably a boy. And let's not stop with just the people who don't speak English, let's do that with every American citizen while we're at it. Don't like it, you get shot in front of your family. That'll demotivate the dissenters. Starts sounding a whole lot like Communist China, to me.

jag

 

[terry78]

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

 

[LexCorp]

THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!

Awesome

 

[jaguarr]

Haha! I've been waiting for someone to post that in here, terry.

jag

 

[Memphis Slim]

I like the robot...that's from my era of television. t:

Memphis, there is no REQUIREMENT for anyone to learn english, so everyone has to accept the risks/limitations associated with their choice not to learn the predominately spoken language of the country they are in. Unless/until there is an official national language identified, we're all just going to have to press on with the status quo.

Really??

US Citizenship Application

Definition of Citizenship: Citizenship is the status given to a legal member of the country. It involves rights, duties and privileges.

United States Citizenship: U.S. citizenship is usually acquired by birth when the child is born in the territory of the United States under the 14th Amendment of the United States Constitution.

Naturalization: The process by which a citizen of a foreign country becomes a United States citizen. Download the US Citizenship Application Guide for more information.

About the US Citizenship Application Guide: The United States Citizenship Information and Application Guide was developed to help foreign nationals apply for U.S. Citizenship. It contains application instructions, procedures and all the required application forms.

Eligibility Requirements: All naturalization applicants must demonstrate good moral character. Other naturalization requirements may be modified or waived for certain applicants, such as spouses of U.S. Citizens or individuals currently serving in the United States military. Additional requirements include:

• A period of continuous residence and physical presence in the United States
• The ability to read, write and speak English
• Good moral character
• Knowledge of the principles of the U.S. Constitution
• Favorable disposition towards the United States
• Pass the United States Citizenship Test

The U.S. Citizenship Information and Application Guide contains:

• U.S. Citizenship overview
• Benefits of US citizenship
• Responsibilities of a US citizen
• Understanding the US Naturalization process
• US Naturalization eligibility information
• Application requirement
• List of required documents
• Waivers, exceptions and special cases
• Information regarding the interview
• Sample US citizenship test questions and answers (for additional information refer to the US Citizenship Test Study Guide)
• Oath of Allegiance
• List of all USCIS (formerly INS) offices nationwide
• List of United States embassies and consulates
• FREE US Citizenship Application forms
  * Immigration forms are provided free of charge with the purchase of this application guide.

http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org...tml?NS_cid=7&gclid=COOPgI3k940CFSTHIgodi3wVLg

 

[PemLam]

So, my brother is a cop. And, I have several friends who are cops. All of them speak Spanish fluently because there is a high percentage of Spanish speaking people in this area. My wife and I also have friends who are cops in the Little Odessa section of NYC and they speak Russian fluently, one because he grew up there and the other because he knew he needed to be able to do so to make his job easier. Is it inconvenient for them to have to learn another language? Possibly. But it's a hell of a lot more practical than dreaming up some impossible to implement and enforce idea of forcing everyone in this country to learn English with the threat of some sort of repercussion like imprisonment or deportation as a result. Is it an ideal situation? Absolutely not and I've never said as much. Would it be better if everyone spoke English (and we've got quite a few natural born U.S. citizens who speak their own regional version of English that makes communication with them difficult as well)? Absolutely. However, this IS supposed to be a free country, founded on the idea that people can be whoever and whatever they want to be here and live life the way they want to, by their own free will. I get a little bit worried when I see people starting to advocate trampling all over that basic tenet of our society; particularly for something that affects them so very little.



The situation with the shop owner is sort of the same situation in reverse, though, isn't it? He's being told "learn Spanish or get out", essentially, which isn't right, either. To me, the debate on "learn English or get out" has no merit because it goes directly against the grain of what this country is supposed to represent and completely impossible to enact and enforce anyway. It's a giant straw dog as far as issues go.




Newsflash, Sparky: Saying that you hate a group of people because they don't speak your language and that they should be imprisoned or deported if they won't *IS* bigoted. :duh: Lost In Space was a good show, though.



Land of the free, home of the brave....but only if you speak English. Nice.



Maybe, maybe not. But, please....give me an example of this happening. You're running around like Chicken Little over this "issue", here (mostly just saying inflammatory things in response to other people's comments to keep the arguments going rather than really providing anything new), like it's some sort of new phenomenon that we all have to suddenly contend with. There have been people living in this country who didn't speak English since the country STARTED. It doesn't seem to have caused such a major issue for these emergency services folks to date. There's no sudden crisis because of it. So, please, give me some examples of how this is now such a big issue because it's caused widespread problems that have resulted in tragedy and lawsuits.



So, what if Congress does decide to make English our "official" language. What then? What does that change? Will it force people to learn it? No. Will we force people to learn it or suffer the consequences? Entirely unfeasible from a cost and manpower standpoint. So what will that do? Make people like Celldog and casey feel all warm and fuzzy that English is the "official" language? It sure as hell won't change anything else.

Here's the problem, though; we're talking about imposing the will of a subgroup of people on another subgroup of people, FORCING them to be like the subgroup of people who wants to impose that will. Nobody else sees a problem with that? Why don't we just force them to be Christian while we're at it? And Republican, too? And let's force them to do certain jobs as well. Oh, and we should only allow them to have one child per family, preferably a boy. And let's not stop with just the people who don't speak English, let's do that with every American citizen while we're at it. Don't like it, you get shot in front of your family. That'll demotivate the dissenters. Starts sounding a whole lot like Communist China, to me.

jag

You're acting as though this doesn't occur on a daily basis. Fully 70% of this country doesn't agree with current policies being enacted/enforced, yet we have to do them and we adjust to it. This ranges from the War on Terror to the actions of your local Homeowners Association. I'm not saying we should pass a *speak this or get out* law...what I'm saying is people that willingly choose to not expand their communications abilities, MUST accept the inherent limitations that comes with that decision; that goes for both sides...english speaking and non-english speaking.

If I, as a police officer and EMT, come upon you at an accident and I'm unable to understand what you're trying to tell me, the consequences are yours, not mine.