The Force Awakens Max von Sydow as Darth Plagueis?

[Solidus]

I didn't realise you had seen the film. It's possible, the Sith never died. But as of every single piece of canonical media and the creator of Star Wars has shown, yeah they did.

"Bring balance and destroy the Sith".

He did both things as far as the films and TV series' suggest. Oh, and Lucas said he did.



Yeah, I know. I'm just saying from a literal standpoint the metaphor doesn't work. It's just an interesting tidbit.

No Lucas does not own SW anymore all decisions are made by Kathy and JJ. Hence why JJ and Kasdan gutted the first draft of VII. I'm going off of good sources you are just saying things...because Lucas once said them. And again...Lucas has many times contradicted himself and admitted so. So let's just cut that crap out right now.

Also again...Lucas wrote the original 9 page treatment of this trilogy, and again.....if sources are true he himself has not destroyed the Sith. But it does not matter anymore because what is canon is now deemed by the LFL story group and Disney.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

No Lucas does not own SW anymore all decisions are made by Kathy and JJ.

Selling something doesn't mean you didn't create it. You can email Kathy if you want. But I'm pretty sure she won't take credit for inventing Star Wars.

Hence why JJ and Kasdan gutted the first draft of VII. I'm going off of good sources you are just saying things...because Lucas once said them. And again...Lucas has many times contradicted himself and admitted so. So let's just cut that crap out right now.

So.......

The man who wrote every Star Wars film (only story for Empire). Directed 4 of 6. Created Darth Vader, the Sith, the Jedi, the Chosen One, the Prophecy.

Said his prophecy was correct and the Sith were destroyed is wrong because of a someone leaking what could just end up being nothing?


Fantastic!

The films so far has shown us the Sith died in Jedi. Unless you can find something yet that has said the Sith never died, the prophecy was right.

Also again...Lucas wrote the original 9 page treatment of this trilogy, and again.....if sources are true he himself has not destroyed the Sith. But it does not matter anymore because what is canon is now deemed by the LFL story group and Disney.

Funny. I don't need semi-reliable sources.

I have the word of the author on my side, at least for now.

 

[Solidus]

Selling something doesn't mean you didn't create it.



So.......

The man who wrote every Star Wars film (only story for Empire). Directed 4 of 6. Created Darth Vader, the Sith, the Jedi, the Chosen One, the Prophecy.

Said his prophecy was correct and the Sith were destroyed is wrong because of a someone leaking what could just end up being nothing?


Fantastic!

The films so far has shown us the Sith died in Jedi. Unless you can find something yet that has said the Sith never died, the prophecy was right.



Funny. I don't need semi-reliable sources.

I have the word of the author on my side, at least for now.

Yes...for now. Which it won't be for long. Also I never said he did not create it, but he no longer controls where the story goes and what is said to be true or not in what he already created.

We already have Rebels that has shown that there is more going on then originally believed. Ya you don't have to believe sources. . But again Lucas has contradicted himself many times in his own story making.

The whole point in this discussion is if there is Sith in Episode VII it shows the prophecy is wrong. Enough said.

But for now. Is a fleeting thing. Many things of SW and what we thought we knew is going to change, just as it did with the PT.

Also just a little hint Lucas himself said he would never create any more SW and the story was just about Vader. Guess what!!!! That wasn't true! He changed his mind! As he does for a LOT of things. Just like when he said Jar Jar would be the main character in a sense to Episode I-III. The man changes his mind often so saying that he once said something quite a few years ago counts anymore...not really. Unless it is said in Episode VII and there are no more Sith. But that does not look like the case. What ever is said in VII becomes the truth because again the creator will have no say, even though it seems he was the one that created this idea.

And it's all going to change, every presumption of what you thought was, many will be changed after the ST.

 

[BatLobster]

Guys...like I said, it's entirely possible that the prophecy was fulfilled, Anakin brought balance to the Force...AND that eventually evil returns in some form. The prophecy never stated that it would vanquish the Sith forever and it never promised that it would bring everlasting peace in the galaxy. To me, bringing balance to the force is kind of like reseting the system and giving it a fighting chance to grow into a better one. But the Force can't do all the work, it still takes sentient beings making good choices for the galaxy to improve and there's still a bitter military conflict that the galaxy is locked in. And war inevitably feeds the dark side. By the same token, it creates heroes on both sides (as is pointed out in the Episode III opening crawl). It definitely seems very deliberate storytelling decision to have a deserter stormtrooper as one of the main protagonists for this trilogy. I think having both good and evil arise from unexpected places could make for a great way to advance the story in an interesting way and show how the galaxy has changed.

I am sure that a lot of thought-work has gone into figuring all of this prophecy stuff out and what it means for the new trilogy, both on Lucas' part and Kathy and the LFL story group.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

Yes...for now. Which it won't be for long. Also I never said he did not create it, but he no longer controls where the story goes and what is said to be true or not in what he already created.

Lies.

Also he's not the creator anymore

The whole point in this discussion is if there is Sith in Episode VII it shows the prophecy is wrong. Enough said.

Let's have a history lesson, shall we?

In World War II, during the Blitz, in the Palace of Westminster the House of Commons was destroyed. Post-War, the House of Commons was rebuilt and still stands.

Does that mean it was never destroyed? Did Germany never actually bomb the UK because they rebuilt?

Also just a little hint Lucas himself said he would never create any more SW and the story was just about Vader. Guess what!!!! That wasn't true! He changed his mind! As he does for a LOT of things. Just like when he said Jar Jar would be the main character in a sense to Episode I-III. The man changes his mind often so saying that he once said something quite a few years ago counts anymore...not really. Unless it is said in Episode VII and there are no more Sith. But that does not look like the case. What ever is said in VII becomes the truth because again the creator will have no say, even though it seems he was the one that created this idea.

And it's all going to change, every presumption of what you thought was, many will be changed after the ST.

Literally none of this retroactively changes films from 10 years+ ago.

Guys...like I said, it's entirely possible that the prophecy was fulfilled, Anakin brought balance to the Force...AND that eventually evil returns in some form. The prophecy never stated that it would vanquish the Sith forever and it never promised that it would bring everlasting peace in the galaxy. To me, bringing balance to the force is kind of like reseting the system and giving it a fighting chance to grow into a better one. But the Force can't do all the work, it still takes sentient beings making good choices for the galaxy to improve and there's still a bitter military conflict that the galaxy is locked in. And war inevitably feeds the dark side. By the same token, it creates heroes on both sides (as is pointed out in the Episode III opening crawl). It definitely seems very deliberate storytelling decision to have a deserter stormtrooper as one of the main protagonists for this trilogy. I think having both good and evil arise from unexpected places could make for a great way to advance the story in an interesting way and show how the galaxy has changed.

I am sure that a lot of thought-work has gone into figuring all of this prophecy stuff out and what it means for the new trilogy, both on Lucas' part and Kathy and the LFL story group.

This is exactly what I think will happen. But apparently thinking this is bad, bad, bad.

 

[Solidus]

Guys...like I said, it's entirely possible that the prophecy was fulfilled, Anakin brought balance to the Force...AND that eventually evil returns in some form. The prophecy never stated that it would vanquish the Sith forever and it never promised that it would bring everlasting peace in the galaxy. To me, bringing balance to the force is kind of like reseting the system and giving it a fighting chance to grow into a better one. But the Force can't do all the work, it still takes sentient beings making good choices for the galaxy to improve and there's still a bitter military conflict that the galaxy is locked in. And war inevitably feeds the dark side. By the same token, it creates heroes on both sides (as is pointed out in the Episode III opening crawl). It definitely seems very deliberate storytelling decision to have a deserter stormtrooper as one of the main protagonists for this trilogy. I think having both good and evil arise from unexpected places could make for a great way to advance the story in an interesting way and show how the galaxy has changed.

I am sure that a lot of thought-work has gone into figuring all of this prophecy stuff out and what it means for the new trilogy, both on Lucas' part and Kathy and the LFL story group.

And I agree. The prophecy was fulfilled for a time. And very likely the Sith will rise again. I have not negated that. I agree.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

The whole point in this discussion is if there is Sith in Episode VII it shows the prophecy is wrong. Enough said.

And I agree. The prophecy was fulfilled for a time. And very likely the Sith will rise again. I have not negated that. I agree.

If you're going to keep lying, what is the point of continuing any discussion?

 

[Solidus]

Lies.






Let's have a history lesson, shall we?

In World War II, during the Blitz, in the Palace of Westminster the House of Commons was destroyed. Post-War, the House of Commons was rebuilt and still stands.

Does that mean it was never destroyed? Did Germany never actually bomb the UK because they rebuilt?



Literally none of this retroactively changes films from 10 years+ ago.



This is exactly what I think will happen. But apparently thinking this is bad, bad, bad.

First...he is not the creator of SW any more. He was of the old stuff I clearly mean the NEW stuff that comes out. As from now he is not a creator of SW it is now in the hand of the others. If you could not get that out of what I was saying...then sorry but it's not what I mean.

Your WWII allegory is again not a good one. The thing is there has been so much that has changed our views on things. Including the PT. Before the PT we never thought of the Clone War being what it was, or Vader's fall being the way it was (sadly) or many other things like the prophecy. For years there was no hint that Luke was part of some great chosen one thing that Vader was a part of. Rebels SW7 are going to change the way we look at things or put them more into further context or lore that expands what is meant or said.

This will change how we view the other films. I mean hell Lucas went back and completely flat out changed things from the OT with the Special Editions. So don't act like things have not just been flat out ripped out and changed before.

The ST is going to change the way we look at SW one way or another, and even the "old stuff" just like the PT made us view certain characters differently etc.

At the very bottom you pretty much agree with what I've been saying. You were saying that the Sith were destroyed and there can be no more Sith. Now you are saying that the can rise back up? If that is what you are saying that is what many of us have been saying in here all along. So I don't get what you are against with the Sith coming back?

 

[Solidus]

If you're going to keep lying, what is the point of continuing any discussion?

I dont' think you are reading my posts at all. My whole point is the Sith are coming back in VII it seems. That is his point as well. You were saying that they can't come back because they were destroyed for ever.

Oh and stop calling me a liar. I have not lied about a thing, you keep taking half the things I say out of context and run with them in your own little direction.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I directly quoted full sentences, or entire paragraphs omitting no words. How much more context do you need? Because it's hard to get more contextual than DIRECT QUOTES.


Destroying does not mean gone forever, it just means gone. The fact you literally just said a buliding wasn't destroyed goes to show you're desperately trying to scurry back to some sort of reasonable position.

 

[Solidus]

I directly quoted full sentences, or entire paragraphs omitting no words. How much more context do you need? Because it's hard to get more contextual than DIRECT QUOTES.


Destroying does not mean gone forever, it just means gone. The fact you literally just said a buliding wasn't destroyed goes to show you're desperately trying to scurry back to some sort of reasonable position.

Making personal attacks shows more than anything.

I think there has been confusion on both sides so let's just go with this:

So let me just ask you this. It seems there are crossed wires on what we are trying to get across. So I will just simplify it.

Do you think Sith can be in Episode VII?

Do you think the prophecy means destroy Sith forever?

If the answers to that are Yes and No respectively, then I think we are more on the same page then you think.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I never attacked you, we're having a discussion, and I spotted what appeared to be contradictions and backtracking, but I do agree to both of those.

But surely you should at least concede that saying "The whole point in this discussion is if there is Sith in Episode VII it shows the prophecy is wrong. Enough said."

Does not support your stance. At least, ot appears this is where any differing stance stems from.

 

[Solidus]

I never attacked you, we're having a discussion, and I spotted what appeared to be contradictions and backtracking, but I do agree to both of those.

But surely you should at least concede that saying "The whole point in this discussion is if there is Sith in Episode VII it shows the prophecy is wrong. Enough said."

Does not support your stance. At least, ot appears this is where any differing stance stems from.

Ya I don't care to be called a liar. But I just think there was confusion on what we were getting at with one another.

The reason I will not concede (yet as you put it) to the prophecy being directly that is because I don't remember that in anything that is considered canon in the new universe. TCW/Episode I-VI. Yes GL may have said it, but that is not under canonical properties anymore. That's kind of my point.

Really I thought you were saying there can never be Sith again. So I am weary still of what the prophecy means because it still is not cut and dry in the films or what is canon of what it actually is where it comes from etc. However since that was my confusion and you are fine with Sith coming back then to me the prophecy won't matter as much one way or another. I thought you were adhering to the fact that VII can't have Sith because of the prophecy in where I pointed out the lack of canon of the prophecy that I can remember.

However now it is a moot point because we seem to be on the same page of Sith returning. What the prophecy is, I just hope down the road they do go into it more maybe with Rebels or another book. If they put the full details into the canonical story I'm fine with it. I just felt it was never concrete to as what the prophecy was. I liked some of the ideas behind it but I never felt that it was fleshed out enough.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

I guess we could debate missed opportunities in the Prequels all day. But I do think it would be a nice way to tie all three trilogies together if they could address the prophecy in the Sequels. Perhaps when Luke learns of the Sith (if they are one) he can be angry thinking Vader's death was in vain (would it be too far to have a return of either Yoda or Anakin to explain and expand upon the prophecy?).

 

[Solidus]

There is rumor of reaching into the past. Including Luke talking to Yoda. So no I don't think it would be odd to further explain it.

 

[BatLobster]

"... And in the time of greatestdespair there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:THE SON OF THE SUNS."
Journal of the Whills, 3:127
​

Lucas has definitely flip flopped on tons of stuff over the years, but I do think it's pretty neat that the seed of the idea for the prophecy was present in his earliest sketches for what would become Star Wars. I'd actually love The Ancient Order of the Whills to have some sort of role in the new movies. It's one of the most mysterious (and oldest) parts of the mythology. It was always sort of a half-baked idea but they have an opportunity to develop it further.

 

[xuncledan]

Not really. The legacy was about bringing balance not destroying the Sith. That would be the same as saying get rid of Jedi. Dark Jedi are nothing more than other names for Sith, Sith is pretty much a dark side user. Bringing in the same thing with a different name would not change anything. Evil force users are evil force users.

i was always under the impression sith and dark jedi were two totally different things, sith was a region. then again they both use the force so i understand what you are explaining

 

[xuncledan]

No it didn't and I wish people would stop saying that.

It meant destroy the Sith because the Sith and only the Sith put the force out of balance.

thats what i always believed. i thought i read the sith used some rituals to make the dark side stronger by sucking some energy from the light side, making the force un balanced.

destroy the sith, brings back equal balance to the force. thats the impression i was always under

 

[HarryOsborn]

Liam I'm sorry but you're contradicting yourself in almost every post. It's not explicitly explained in the movies or tv series. You continue to quote "bring balance to the force and destroy the sith."- wasn't in the movie so not canon.

Yoda and Obi-Wan however change the order, and Luke saves the day by embracing emotion, Anakin's purge was on both sides, notice how in Jedi when the prophecy is fulfilled none of the prequel heroes or villains are left alive.

You may dislike it, but continuing the Sith story works just fine.

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

"... And in the time of greatestdespair there shall come a savior,
and he shall be known as:THE SON OF THE SUNS."
Journal of the Whills, 3:127
​

Lucas has definitely flip flopped on tons of stuff over the years, but I do think it's pretty neat that the seed of the idea for the prophecy was present in his earliest sketches for what would become Star Wars. I'd actually love The Ancient Order of the Whills to have some sort of role in the new movies. It's one of the most mysterious (and oldest) parts of the mythology. It was always sort of a half-baked idea but they have an opportunity to develop it further.

The Journal of the Whills is something I'd actually love to see in the Sequel Trilogy, and I think it would be great to even incorporate it as it was intended like the Red Book of Westmarch was in the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings.

Instead, perhaps make it some sort of Holocron being pieced together in the New Jedi Temple, with Luke (or the next generation Skywalkers) assembling the Skywalker story.

There is rumor of reaching into the past. Including Luke talking to Yoda. So no I don't think it would be odd to further explain it.

Then I really think this would be a wasted opportunity to not explore it. But then again, this isn't Luke's story anymore.

Liam I'm sorry but you're contradicting yourself in almost every post. It's not explicitly explained in the movies or tv series. You continue to quote "bring balance to the force and destroy the sith."- wasn't in the movie so not canon.

Yoda and Obi-Wan however change the order, and Luke saves the day by embracing emotion, Anakin's purge was on both sides, notice how in Jedi when the prophecy is fulfilled none of the prequel heroes or villains are left alive.

You may dislike it, but continuing the Sith story works just fine.

I'm going to assume this is addressed to me, and "Liam" is an autocorrect mishap of the word "Llama".

As for fulfilling the prophecy = destroying the Sith, I'd like to point you to Star Wars- Episode III: The Revenge of the Sith:

Obi-Wan
With all due respect master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

Windu
So the Prophecy says.

Yoda
A prophecy... that misread, could have been

Here we have three Jedi masters and Jedi Council members discussing the prophecy, confirming the prophecy is that the Chosen One will destroy the Sith, bringing balance to the force. They discuss the possibility of the prophecy being wrong, but nonetheless, the prophecy is the Chosen One will destroy the Sith.

Then add in the confirmation from George Lucas that the Prophecy was correct and we know that Anakin Skywalker did destroy the Sith (however temporarily) in Return of the Jedi.
​

 

[Arrowshieldfan]

is Darth Plaugeis dead? killed by Darth Sidious? or is that in the books. I remmeber Sidious mention him in episode 3?

 

[Llama_Shepherd]

It's implied Sidious was his apprentice and killed him.

Before the Disney takeover that was also the actual circumstance.

 

[HarryOsborn]

I'm going to assume this is addressed to me, and "Liam" is an autocorrect mishap of the word "Llama".

As for fulfilling the prophecy = destroying the Sith, I'd like to point you to Star Wars- Episode III: The Revenge of the Sith:

Obi-Wan
With all due respect master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?

Windu
So the Prophecy says.

Yoda
A prophecy... that misread, could have been

Here we have three Jedi masters and Jedi Council members discussing the prophecy, confirming the prophecy is that the Chosen One will destroy the Sith, bringing balance to the force. They discuss the possibility of the prophecy being wrong, but nonetheless, the prophecy is the Chosen One will destroy the Sith.

Then add in the confirmation from George Lucas that the Prophecy was correct and we know that Anakin Skywalker did destroy the Sith (however temporarily) in Return of the Jedi.
​

That conversation is not confirmation that it is to bring balance to the force and destroy this Sith. Given that the entire trilogy it is simply "bring balance to the force" and Yoda's "misread" line, it's just as likely the Jedi simply interpreted bringing balance to the force as destroying the Sith- which Vader did, as well as the corrupted Jedi order.

Anakin's journey was largely meant to call back to biblical tales of Jesus Christ. He was a boy born through immaculate conception, said to be the savior of his people, and later in life he marches on a temple cleansing it of it's sacrilegious nature. Lucas didn't do this by accident, regardless of if he explicitly states this in interviews or not.

 

[HarryOsborn]

is Darth Plaugeis dead? killed by Darth Sidious? or is that in the books. I remmeber Sidious mention him in episode 3?

What Liama said. Though it's pretty clear Palpatine was the killer (or at least believes himself to have been), the face he makes while telling Anakin the story is a dead giveaway- also this was the best exchange in the prequel trilogy as a whole in my opinion.

 

[Asteroid-Man]

The return of Plagueis also takes away from the dramatic irony of how only the Jedi learn to become one with the force (thus becoming immortal). Anakin turns to the Dark Side to find immortality and in doing so, pushes his wife to death, and the Jedi learn how to become immortal.

The novelisation (yes I know it isn't canon) of Episode III mentions how becoming one with the Force takes a tremendous amount of love. Obi-Wan and Yoda would have had to harness the connection in their friendship with Qui-Gon (and eventually Luke) to do it. It was easier for Anakin (eventually) because he did it for his own son.

As per the prophecy, if the Sith ARE in this trilogy and the last Sith is killed by one of Anakin's grandchildren, you could technically say Anakin brought balance to the Force by going against the order and producing offspring so that three generations of his bloodline could vanquish the Sith.