MCU Doctor Doom

I really don't want Johnny to be an adult or Sue to be a scientist... But since the FFH post cred I have been feelingvthey will go the SHIELD/SWORD route.
 
i would change up the dynamic with Reed and Victor in the movies. i would have them working for SHIELD in the past (in the comics Reed was in the army). Reed and his team (Consisting of Ben Grimm and Franklin Storm) go on a mission to Latveria there they meet Victor and bring him back with them. After some time its found out that Victor was just working with them so that he could get the tech to free his people. Reed turns him in and in his escape Victor is caught in an explosion that scares his face.
For years Victor lives in heading bidding his time until the Snap gives him the opportunity to take control of Latveria. While at the same time Reed, Ben and Franklin have moved on to working with Nick Fury at SWORD here Reed meets Johnny (a pilot) and Sue (another scientist) the four of them get their powers while investigating an anomaly in space.

I'd stick with the original story. I think Doom should be brought into it in some form whether or not he's a main player. Establish him early, but build him up. A quick look back at what happened at the University when Reed and Doom met maybe....
 
I really don't want Johnny to be an adult or Sue to be a scientist... But since the FFH post cred I have been feeling they will go the SHIELD/SWORD route.
there is no way they are going to make Johnny a teenager or Sue a socialite in the movie. Johnny hasn't been a teenager is years in the comics so it works to just use an adult in the movie as long as they get his character right. Also they changed Jane Foster from a nurse to a scientist and did the same with Betty Ross it makes sense using the history of the MCU to think that Sue will be the same.
 
I'd stick with the original story. I think Doom should be brought into it in some form whether or not he's a main player. Establish him early, but build him up. A quick look back at what happened at the University when Reed and Doom met maybe....
not one villain in the MCU hasn't had changes to their history. and like it or not all roads in the MCU lead to SHIELD in some way or another.
 
there is no way they are going to make Johnny a teenager or Sue a socialite in the movie. Johnny hasn't been a teenager is years in the comics so it works to just use an adult in the movie as long as they get his character right. Also they changed Jane Foster from a nurse to a scientist and did the same with Betty Ross it makes sense using the history of the MCU to think that Sue will be the same.


Peter Parker was an over 21 adult that married and graduated college for the majority of the characters' existence... And yet here we are.


I won't rehash the back and forth over Johnny being an adult as opposed to an honest to goodness teenager or pre-college graduate in it's entirety but:

1. If these things get praised by fans for fealty to the source material, well... Johnny weren't no astronaut or pilot or engineer or scientist... All things which clash with his traditional personality. This was a problem with the Story films. Make Johnny under 21 and his personality and the issues that come with it fall into place and make more sense.

2. Why must the choice be between two absolute extremes for Sue? It's socialite or scientist/medical doctor... Why not something else that can make her a more grounded individual? She can only be heroic if she's got a degree? Ditto Johhny.


3. Being scientists didn't do much for Betty or Jane let's remember. Both have been MIA from the MCU for years and Jane is being brought back for an upcoming sequel and I am betting her scientific career won't factor much in the story.


Reed's the most brilliant scientific mind in the world.

Ben is a tough but compassionate ex-military man.

Sue is the grounded but fierce organizer.

Johnny is the flippant and impulsive youngest member with a rebellious streak that ultimately listens to his respected elders.


Out of those four I see literally only one character that has to be a scientist.


Because here is the same problem Story boxed himself into... If we want them to behave and act as "classic" as possible, well telling me they all are highly accomplished scientists/astronauts is gonna clash with that.


Finally... Why repeat what has gone before (and wasn't spectacular when it was done to begin with.)?
 
Peter Parker was an over 21 adult that married and graduated college for the majority of the characters' existence... And yet here we are.


I won't rehash the back and forth over Johnny being an adult as opposed to an honest to goodness teenager or pre-college graduate in it's entirety but:

1. If these things get praised by fans for fealty to the source material, well... Johnny weren't no astronaut or pilot or engineer or scientist... All things which clash with his traditional personality. This was a problem with the Story films. Make Johnny under 21 and his personality and the issues that come with it fall into place and make more sense.

2. Why must the choice be between two absolute extremes for Sue? It's socialite or scientist/medical doctor... Why not something else that can make her a more grounded individual? She can only be heroic if she's got a degree? Ditto Johhny.


3. Being scientists didn't do much for Betty or Jane let's remember. Both have been MIA from the MCU for years and Jane is being brought back for an upcoming sequel and I am betting her scientific career won't factor much in the story.


Reed's the most brilliant scientific mind in the world.

Ben is a tough but compassionate ex-military man.

Sue is the grounded but fierce organizer.

Johnny is the flippant and impulsive youngest member with a rebellious streak that ultimately listens to his respected elders.


Out of those four I see literally only one character that has to be a scientist.


Because here is the same problem Story boxed himself into... If we want them to behave and act as "classic" as possible, well telling me they all are highly accomplished scientists/astronauts is gonna clash with that.


Finally... Why repeat what has gone before (and wasn't spectacular when it was done to begin with.)?

Im just going with what i think the FF would look like in the MCU not transplanting the Comics FF in to the MCU. so the changes in my MCU FF are based off what they have done with the other comics they have adapted into movies.

1) they aren't going to have Reed build a rocket and fly it into space with his girlfriend, her kid brother, and his best friend just so they can beat the Russians.

2) if you aren't going to use the 60's origin where sue is just tagging along with her boyfriend then you have to give her a reason to be there and they don't let non essential personal on space flights.

3) For the Incredible Hulk only one person from the cast came back, and for Thor and Jane; Portman didn't want to come back. so any change to them has little to do with them not coming back
 
not one villain in the MCU hasn't had changes to their history. and like it or not all roads in the MCU lead to SHIELD in some way or another.

You might be right, but, personally, I wouldn't make that bet. GotG, Strange, (maybe) Eternals, etc. don't seem to have that connection. FF may or may not. We'll see.

EDIT: That wasn't phrased very well. They all have the potential to stay clear of SHIELD and be quite successful.
 
Im just going with what i think the FF would look like in the MCU not transplanting the Comics FF in to the MCU. so the changes in my MCU FF are based off what they have done with the other comics they have adapted into movies.

1) they aren't going to have Reed build a rocket and fly it into space with his girlfriend, her kid brother, and his best friend just so they can beat the Russians.

2) if you aren't going to use the 60's origin where sue is just tagging along with her boyfriend then you have to give her a reason to be there and they don't let non essential personal on space flights.

3) For the Incredible Hulk only one person from the cast came back, and for Thor and Jane; Portman didn't want to come back. so any change to them has little to do with them not coming back

I guess we will will go over this again... :cwink:

1. Myself, and I think no one else is arguing for the FF Lee/Kirby origin to be one for one adapted. It's obviously 2020 and not the 1960's.

Tapping into the modern day you can come up with reasons that don't have to make Sue or Johnny scientists, SHIELD agents or NASA astronauts.

The Space X prize and the real world push by the Richard Branson's (Somebody check the spelling on that. ;nd) and Elon Musks to develop suborbital/near Earth space transportation can be used as a basis to position Reed as a scientific mind looking to push boundaries both for pure scientific exploration as well as practical applications.

Have say a race or competition that is highly visible in the culture take place. Reed designs his own vehicle that he is confident will blow all the others out of the water. He is so confident he's not only going on the maiden flight with his hand picked test pilot, his good friend Ben Grimm, but he's taking along his fiancee' Susan Storm (Let's say Sue is a Manhattan based PR phenom, adept at brand management, organizing fund raisers and networking with the elite in the world or finance, corporate imaging, entertainment etc.) and her younger brother Johnny (Soon to be High School graduate who is still feeling out this guy his sister is involved with, but likes despite himself.) to prove the safety of his design and to show his commitment to bringing the cutting edge of science to the masses of everyday people.


There... Not one mention of Russkies or socialites. :word:

2. See above.


3. I think you missed my point about how Jane and Betty being scientists didn't do anything for the characters in the MCU.

Their supposed scientific backgrounds don't truly factor into the stories of the films they appeared in. Maybe THOR1 it is important for the set up, ditto TDW, but really cut that out and finagle it so it all plays out the same sans her being an astronomer and it doesn't impact her as a character much.

And neither character set the fandom on fire either despite giving them basically perfunctory roles as scientists. They disappeared for years without much impact from their absence. If something had actually been done with that aspect of their MCU character I'd feel different. But that's not what happened.

And again, if you want these characters to have the dynamics from the source as it has developed over the decades well...
Johnny can't be a NASA astronaut/pilot as in the Story films because you would question how this flippant and unserious fellow became one in the first place. And having an astronaut needing Reed or anyone to explain science and engineering to them makes no sense. Is Johnny an idiot? No. But there's no need to overcompensate either and make him a guy that would have to have multiple degrees, which again, clashes with a traditional presentation of his character and his place in the dynamic of the group. Him being the youngest poses it's own issues to if you want him to be some kind of specialist in a field associated with space travel. So... We cast Johnny not as a teen but as a guy in his 20's... Well then this guy is a GENIUS that blew through college and his post-grad era. He would be a Reed level savant, no? So when inevitably Reed talks up some theoretical physics that is the solution or is explaining an invention, Johhny should just nod, and go "Hmm... Yes.... Indeed. Makes perfect sense according to all those papers I've read..." Aaaaaand... That's not Johnny Storm to me.


Johnny and Sue aren't disqualified from heroics just because they don't have a background in science nor is making them people without high level degrees or training automatically make them useless fools or some such (The other extreme when writing characters where "average Joe" too easily comes across as "brain dead nincompoop").
 
You might be right, but, personally, I wouldn't make that bet. GotG, Strange, (maybe) Eternals, etc. don't seem to have that connection. FF may or may not. We'll see.

EDIT: That wasn't phrased very well. They all have the potential to stay clear of SHIELD and be quite successful.


I agree but as I stated I think the FFH post cred will come into play later on as a backdoor to the FF.

It does make sense for Fury to be way more interested in space these days, post Thanos. And it would make sense that Reed would also be on his radar.

Like you though I am not hoping for a direct SHIELD involvement and if so, I hope it is limited to say, Reed and Ben being employed by Fury on some project rather than all four being scientists.



Bringing it back to the thread topic...


Should Doom figure into the FF origin?

Yes it has been done poorly before, no argument. But I can see the reasoning. Streamlining etc.

I think I would go for something like Doom seeking revenge on Reed explains their cosmic ray exposure. Doom sabotages Reed's vehicle (This explains why the smartest man on Earth waan't prepared for radiation in space, an issue NASA has been aware of for decades and decades...) and thus he creates the force that will oppose him. Irony and all that.
 
I agree but as I stated I think the FFH post cred will come into play later on as a backdoor to the FF.

It does make sense for Fury to be way more interested in space these days, post Thanos. And it would make sense that Reed would also be on his radar.

Like you though I am not hoping for a direct SHIELD involvement and if so, I hope it is limited to say, Reed and Ben being employed by Fury on some project rather than all four being scientists.



Bringing it back to the thread topic...


Should Doom figure into the FF origin?

Yes it has been done poorly before, no argument. But I can see the reasoning. Streamlining etc.

I think I would go for something like Doom seeking revenge on Reed explains their cosmic ray exposure. Doom sabotages Reed's vehicle (This explains why the smartest man on Earth waan't prepared for radiation in space, an issue NASA has been aware of for decades and decades...) and thus he creates the force that will oppose him. Irony and all that.

i always felt Doom would work best as a villain like Khan in star trek 2. hes this guy from Reeds past that has come back to get revenge.
 
I guess we will will go over this again... :cwink:

1. Myself, and I think no one else is arguing for the FF Lee/Kirby origin to be one for one adapted. It's obviously 2020 and not the 1960's.

Tapping into the modern day you can come up with reasons that don't have to make Sue or Johnny scientists, SHIELD agents or NASA astronauts.

The Space X prize and the real world push by the Richard Branson's (Somebody check the spelling on that. ;nd) and Elon Musks to develop suborbital/near Earth space transportation can be used as a basis to position Reed as a scientific mind looking to push boundaries both for pure scientific exploration as well as practical applications.

Have say a race or competition that is highly visible in the culture take place. Reed designs his own vehicle that he is confident will blow all the others out of the water. He is so confident he's not only going on the maiden flight with his hand picked test pilot, his good friend Ben Grimm, but he's taking along his fiancee' Susan Storm (Let's say Sue is a Manhattan based PR phenom, adept at brand management, organizing fund raisers and networking with the elite in the world or finance, corporate imaging, entertainment etc.) and her younger brother Johnny (Soon to be High School graduate who is still feeling out this guy his sister is involved with, but likes despite himself.) to prove the safety of his design and to show his commitment to bringing the cutting edge of science to the masses of everyday people.


There... Not one mention of Russkies or socialites. :word:

2. See above.


3. I think you missed my point about how Jane and Betty being scientists didn't do anything for the characters in the MCU.

Their supposed scientific backgrounds don't truly factor into the stories of the films they appeared in. Maybe THOR1 it is important for the set up, ditto TDW, but really cut that out and finagle it so it all plays out the same sans her being an astronomer and it doesn't impact her as a character much.

And neither character set the fandom on fire either despite giving them basically perfunctory roles as scientists. They disappeared for years without much impact from their absence. If something had actually been done with that aspect of their MCU character I'd feel different. But that's not what happened.

And again, if you want these characters to have the dynamics from the source as it has developed over the decades well...
Johnny can't be a NASA astronaut/pilot as in the Story films because you would question how this flippant and unserious fellow became one in the first place. And having an astronaut needing Reed or anyone to explain science and engineering to them makes no sense. Is Johnny an idiot? No. But there's no need to overcompensate either and make him a guy that would have to have multiple degrees, which again, clashes with a traditional presentation of his character and his place in the dynamic of the group. Him being the youngest poses it's own issues to if you want him to be some kind of specialist in a field associated with space travel. So... We cast Johnny not as a teen but as a guy in his 20's... Well then this guy is a GENIUS that blew through college and his post-grad era. He would be a Reed level savant, no? So when inevitably Reed talks up some theoretical physics that is the solution or is explaining an invention, Johhny should just nod, and go "Hmm... Yes.... Indeed. Makes perfect sense according to all those papers I've read..." Aaaaaand... That's not Johnny Storm to me.


Johnny and Sue aren't disqualified from heroics just because they don't have a background in science nor is making them people without high level degrees or training automatically make them useless fools or some such (The other extreme when writing characters where "average Joe" too easily comes across as "brain dead nincompoop").

I'm not saying that they cant do a version of the 60s origin updated just that i dont see the MCU going that route for the movies. Changing the Love interests of the hulk and thor into scientists didn't change much one way or the other but they weren't the focus of the movie. and them not coming back had less to do with the change and more to do with the behind the scenes movie biz stuff.
 
Should Doom figure into the FF origin?

Yes it has been done poorly before, no argument. But I can see the reasoning. Streamlining etc.

I think I would go for something like Doom seeking revenge on Reed explains their cosmic ray exposure. Doom sabotages Reed's vehicle (This explains why the smartest man on Earth waan't prepared for radiation in space, an issue NASA has been aware of for decades and decades...) and thus he creates the force that will oppose him. Irony and all that.
Having Doom do the sabotage doesn’t just give Reed an out for his mistake, but you could use it to play with Doom’s psychology - he blames Reed for somehow “sabotaging” him, leading to him retreating to the mask, strikes back to get his revenge... only to instead see fate seemingly smile on Richards and bless him when the sabotage fails.

I know some other people have suggested the idea of some kind of timeline shenanigans to separate the F4 from the “Enhanced” renaissance seen by SHIELD and allow them to emerge after the Thanos snap. I’d use that: let Doom think he long ago defeated and avenged himself on Richards, and spent his time afterwards seizing control of Latveria and learning the magic skills he has while experiencing the rise of the Avengers and the Snap, and ostensibly become almost the Doctor Doom we know in an attempt to be a “real” hero that would prevent the Snap in the first place... then Richards returns with powers and increased knowledge, and Doom’s more spiteful and truly petty nature would be highlighted by his anger at that and need to best Richards in a public manner.

I still personally would love to see Doom make his premier in secret as a “new” Iron Man in the Dark Avengers, who at first seems to just be someone loyal to the DA’s leadership, before revealing his true colors and seizing their assets for his own ends by revealing his magic powers and escaping the DA’s fall by revealing himself as Latveria’s leader and assuming its throne publicly... and then finds out Reed escaped his sabotage and starts acting in the petty but glorious way we know and love.
 
I am still strongly in the camp of doom being introduced first or better yet in his own movie. There’s so much to cover, too much to cover and introduce four main characters at the same time
 
2) if you aren't going to use the 60's origin where sue is just tagging along with her boyfriend then you have to give her a reason to be there and they don't let non essential personal on space flights.

In the real world, widespread space tourism will be here in a few years (we've already seen it in limited form). In the slightly more futuristic MCU, Sue being on the flight simply because she wants to be on the flight is completely plausible.

Space tourism - Wikipedia
 
I am still strongly in the camp of doom being introduced first or better yet in his own movie. There’s so much to cover, too much to cover and introduce four main characters at the same time
Or how about Doom being introduced in BP as ruler of Latveria, introduced in Strange 2 as a sorcery and introduced in F4 as a genius..............unless of course he gets his own movie. He's to deep of a character to be introduced when it's the F4 first film.
 
If John Krasinski is Reed, how about Steve Carell as Doom? He is a serious actor, he has proven in Foxcatcher and Beautiful Boy
 
A series on Disney+ about his Latverian origin would be awesome.
Maybe he‘s introduced as a competitor to Reed in the first F4 movie and becomes Doom in the a following movie.
The tv series could show his childhood and youth in Latveria.
This will give his character a lot of debth until he will be Dr. Doom in a F4 sequel and other future movies
 
Yeah like a super intense Paul greengrass action type Disney plus series would be mind blowing
 
However the characters are portrayed, I'd have the mission during which they receive their powers mirroring the competitive nature of space flight projects to facilitate Red Ghost and the Super-Apes and the U-Foes being brought into the MCU to bulk up the villain count, even if it's just a news story saying there are other projects happening or a side remark from someone in SHIELD.
 
Red ghost and the super apes would be so much fun
 
there is no way they are going to make Johnny a teenager or Sue a socialite in the movie. Johnny hasn't been a teenager is years in the comics so it works to just use an adult in the movie as long as they get his character right. Also they changed Jane Foster from a nurse to a scientist and did the same with Betty Ross it makes sense using the history of the MCU to think that Sue will be the same.

Not just that, but check out The Ultimate Fantastic Four.

In that universe Sue is a gifted biochemist and bioengineer and a much stronger character.
I think that'll be the kind of Sue Richards we see in the MCU.

As well as the the obvious SLJ Nick Fury, Cap and Hawkeye in particular are very influenced by the Ultimates versions if you look at Cap's power set and how hardcore a soldier Clint is.
A little bit of that more grown up Ultimate universe influence lends itself to fleshing out characters for the the big screen, whilst still referencing the original source material in a more respectful way than Fox ever did.

I do however think they might make Johnny the same age as Peter Parker, and i don't think having a distinct age gap between him and Sue if necessary would do any harm.
 

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