Marvel Films MCU Thunderbolts - Team suggestions?

[Zarex]

That would make Contessa equally idiotic and incompetent.

Why not hire Quentin Beck or his cronies?

Quentin Beck is part of the Sony Spider-Man series and is probably not available.

Val hiring Hammer doesn't make her idiotic nor does it make her incompetent. Not everyone in the MCU can be Stark or Shuri. Hammer very well might be the best tech guy available after those two. The list of folks who can design and build weaponized flying armored suits probably isn't a long one.

But the real reason why Hammer is going to end up on the Thunderbolts is because Sam Rockwell is a terrific actor and we want to see more of him in the MCU. The End.

 

[Dr. Evil]

They should introduce him.

Based on his bio, maybe Armor Wars?

 

[Bayne]

They should introduce him.

Dude, you went off dozens of times insisting that Marvel needs to use Laura Kinney instead of Logan. Adaptations are allowed to change things, including the team roster.

 

[Bayne]

Also, regarding Yelena - I have my doubts whether she'll actually be a part of it, but it wouldn't exactly be out of line for that to be the case. She was officially part of the Thunderbolts in the Dark Reign era already. Granted, that turned out to be a fake Yelena (it was actually Natasha) playing double agent, but it pretty clearly shows that Yelena is viewed by Marvel as a character who naturally fits the Thunderbolts concept.

And if you really want to insist she'll definitely be totally heroic then, um, so was Jolt. And this version could literally just straight up adapt the Dark Reign era with the real Yelena as a double agent secretly working against the Thunderbolts instead of Natasha pretending to be Yelena doing the same thing.

 

[Fincher]

Yelena as a double agent works if the audience knows she's a double agent and she's the viewpoint character. Establishing her as a goodguy in Black Widow (to the general public, at an rate) and then presenting her as a badguy in Thunderbolts only to reveal that she secretly was a goodguy all along wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Bayne]

Yelena as a double agent works if the audience knows she's a double agent and she's the viewpoint character. Establishing her as a goodguy in Black Widow (to the general public, at an rate) and then presenting her as a badguy in Thunderbolts only to reveal that she secretly was a goodguy all along wouldn't make a whole lot of sense.

And they very easily could do that.

And that's without even getting into the fact that we don't actually know she'll be presented as clearly a good guy in BW yet.

Personally, I'm way more concerned about whether this version of the T-Bolts will really do justice to the core concept of the team. Especially now that I just found out there's a brand new Thunderbolts team in the comics and having just read the first issue, this new team really is one hundred percent just Marvel's Suicide Squad. They even stole a scene straight out of the Suicide Squad movie. I still enjoyed it because I love SS, too, but given Marvel's tendency to change the comics in advance to better match upcoming films, I really hope this isn't an omen of what the MCU intends to do with the team because they deserve to be more than just MCU Suicide Squad.

 

[Zarex]

My guess is MCU Thunderbolts will be a mash up of Dark Avengers and T-Bolts. The lineup looks like it will more closely resemble DAs, with characters that mimic the powers of the OG Avengers. But I think this group will eventually end up embracing heroism instead of being actual baddies like Norman's team.

 

[metaphysician]

Yes? I mean unless one of his crew went and blabbed about the whole thing being fake then no one would know. The public thinks Spider-Man ordered those drones to strike, the images being fake was never discovered and even if they were no one would still know about Mysterios group.

You mean aside from everyone in London who saw the "giant elemental" dissolve into a partial image, and then ultimately just a swarm of obvious robotic drones? *cough*

The plausibility of Beck's posthumous lie should have fallen apart within minutes. Doubly so since "Nick Fury", who was actively working with various governments at the time on that specific case, knows the truth.

 

[metaphysician]

My guess is MCU Thunderbolts will be a mash up of Dark Avengers and T-Bolts. The lineup looks like it will more closely resemble DAs, with characters that mimic the powers of the OG Avengers. But I think this group will eventually end up embracing heroism instead of being actual baddies like Norman's team.

Most likely, though I could also see a split, where part of the team embraces heroism, however reluctantly or redemptively. . . while the *other* half is strictly in it for the paycheck and license to kill. It almost certainly will draw from both the "Original Flavor" and "Marvel's Suicide Squad" versions, sure, rather than being *only* one or *only* the other.

Also, I'd say we absolutely *won't* be able to tell which way it leans based on roster. Marvel Studios can absolutely choose the theming from one with the roster of either.

 

[TheVileOne]

Dude, you went off dozens of times insisting that Marvel needs to use Laura Kinney instead of Logan. Adaptations are allowed to change things, including the team roster.

Laura Kinney actually became Wolverine in the comics. She's his successor.

 

[Bayne]

Laura Kinney actually became Wolverine in the comics. She's his successor.

And not the original or only Wolverine, as you repeatedly insisted she should be in the MCU.

It's no different from putting other former villains on the Thunderbolts roster.

 

[TheVileOne]

And not the original or only Wolverine, as you repeatedly insisted she should be in the MCU.

It's no different from putting other former villains on the Thunderbolts roster.

OK, and? Justin Hammer is not anything with Thunderbolts. I'd say it's pretty different. Laura Kinney was X23 and became the New Wolverine.

Also, his film version is nothing like the character from the comics either.

 

[Dr. Evil]

Aren't some of the OG Thunderbolts Spider-Man villains? There may be a rights issue there.

 

[Bayne]

OK, and? Justin Hammer is not anything with Thunderbolts. I'd say it's pretty different. Laura Kinney was X23 and became the New Wolverine.

Also, his film version is nothing like the character from the comics either.

Yes, he's also an adaptation. The entire MCU is. The Thunderbolts will be too. The only question is to what extent. Thor also isn't a Guardian of the Galaxy. Tony Stark also didn't create Ultron. Valkyrie also was originally a white woman named Brunhilda. Heimdall also wasn't black. Rescue also wasn't an Avenger. Etc, etc. Marvel can make changes, like having Laura Kinney as the only Wolverine or putting Justin Hammer on the Thunderbolts, if they want to. Some of those changes probably won't happen, some of them might or might not. But your 'they should introduce him!!' shtick as an attempt to shut down any conversation about what changes might happen is pure nonsense. Changes happen in the MCU all the time and almost certainly will happen with the Thunderbolts, too, regardless of how much you hate them.

 

[TheVileOne]

Yes, he's also an adaptation. The entire MCU is. The Thunderbolts will be too. The only question is to what extent. Thor also isn't a Guardian of the Galaxy. Tony Stark also didn't create Ultron. Valkyrie also was originally a white woman named Brunhilda. Heimdall also wasn't black. Rescue also wasn't an Avenger. Etc, etc. Marvel can make changes, like having Laura Kinney as the only Wolverine or putting Justin Hammer on the Thunderbolts, if they want to. Some of those changes probably won't happen, some of them might or might not. But your 'they should introduce him!!' shtick as an attempt to shut down any conversation about what changes might happen is pure nonsense. Changes happen in the MCU all the time and almost certainly will happen with the Thunderbolts, too, regardless of how much you hate them.

Right, and making this Justin Hammer a member of the Thunderbolts in the MCU is ridiculous and makes no sense. Iron Man 2 established that Hammer is nowhere near the engineer or technical genius that Tony Stark is, nor are his weapons or technology reliable. It would make no sense to recruit him.

So you're making bad-faith apples and oranges comparisons here. Based on what was already done with Justin Hammer in the MCU recruiting him as a technical genius, when he clearly isn't, makes no sense.

 

[TheVileOne]

Aren't some of the OG Thunderbolts Spider-Man villains? There may be a rights issue there.

The OG Thunderbolts are Citizen V (Zemo), Meteorite (Moonstone), Techno (The Fixer), Songbird (Screaming Mimi), Atlas (Goliath), and Mach-1 (The Beetle). Only Beetle originated as a Spider-Man villain as far as I know. And we don't know what his rights issues are with Sony.

 

[Zarex]

Right, and making this Justin Hammer a member of the Thunderbolts in the MCU is ridiculous and makes no sense. Iron Man 2 established that Hammer is nowhere near the engineer or technical genius that Tony Stark is, nor are his weapons or technology reliable. It would make no sense to recruit him.

So you're making bad-faith apples and oranges comparisons here. Based on what was already done with Justin Hammer in the MCU recruiting him as a technical genius, when he clearly isn't, makes no sense.

This is silly. Marvel should not bring a popular Academy Award winning actor back for an encore because, why? His character couldn't manufacture an arc reactor in a cave with a bunch of scraps?

Hammer is probably a technical genius in comparison to everyone not named Stark or Shuri. That's perfectly acceptable for membership in a morally questionable super hero outfit. And If the creative team thinks like you and believes IM2 Hammer aint smart enough, they can always say he honed his tech abilities during his time spent in the pokey.

The OG Thunderbolts are Citizen V (Zemo), Meteorite (Moonstone), Techno (The Fixer), Songbird (Screaming Mimi), Atlas (Goliath), and Mach-1 (The Beetle). Only Beetle originated as a Spider-Man villain as far as I know. And we don't know what his rights issues are with Sony.

I mean, Marvel COULD put forward a team of shaky heroes made up of comic accurate characters we have never seen before. That would certainly make the seventy or so folks who read the Thunderbolts comics happy.

OR they could fill out the roster with previously introduced fan favorite characters seen by millions of people on TV and film. That's probably the superior option.

 

[Dr. Evil]

This is silly. Marvel should not bring a popular Academy Award winning actor back for an encore because, why? His character couldn't manufacture an arc reactor in a cave with a bunch of scraps?

Hammer is probably a technical genius in comparison to everyone not named Stark or Shuri. That's perfectly acceptable for membership in a morally questionable super hero outfit. And If the creative team thinks like you and believes IM2 Hammer aint smart enough, they can always say he honed his tech abilities during his time spent in the pokey.



I mean, Marvel COULD put forward a team of shaky heroes made up of comic accurate characters we have never seen before. That would certainly make the seventy or so folks who read the Thunderbolts comics happy.

OR they could fill out the roster with previously introduced fan favorite characters seen by millions of people on TV and film. That's probably the superior option.

Which means: Walker, Yelena (maybe), Abomination, Taskmaster, Ross (maybe as Red Hulk), Agatha (if they need a wizard, which I don't think they do) and Ghost.

 

[Bayne]

I mean, Marvel COULD put forward a team of shaky heroes made up of comic accurate characters we have never seen before. That would certainly make the seventy or so folks who read the Thunderbolts comics happy.

OR they could fill out the roster with previously introduced fan favorite characters seen by millions of people on TV and film. That's probably the superior option.

As one of the seventy or so folks, I don't even think it's a question of just which characters will be more popular. Hell, Marvel made 700m+ with the b team of the Guardians of the frikkin Galaxy.

But the concept of the Thunderbolts is itself inherently built on the fact that the characters are already familiar to the audience. If you just introduce a bunch of brand new characters who seem like heroes and then go - Hey, wait, they were secretly villains all along, but maybe they don't want to be villains anymore? - then that would be a just plain *bad* Thunderbolts adaptation. It would not achieve anything even remotely similar to the effect that the comics achieved. You can introduce some new characters in the story itself, but the majority of the team absolutely needs to be already clearly familiar with the audience, preferably with a least a few of them having a good, long history of familiarity.

Now, if Marvel wanted to take the next six years to introduce every single original member before doing the Thunderbolts and give at least a few of them a long history with the audience, I'd be happy. But that just does not seem even remotely likely at this point, so it's now pretty much down to either changing some (or most) of the roster or completely giving up on getting an even half decent adaptation of what the series is supposed to be about.

 

[metaphysician]

As one of the seventy or so folks, I don't even think it's a question of just which characters will be more popular. Hell, Marvel made 700m+ with the b team of the Guardians of the frikkin Galaxy.

But the concept of the Thunderbolts is itself inherently built on the fact that the characters are already familiar to the audience. If you just introduce a bunch of brand new characters who seem like heroes and then go - Hey, wait, they were secretly villains all along, but maybe they don't want to be villains anymore? - then that would be a just plain *bad* Thunderbolts adaptation. It would not achieve anything even remotely similar to the effect that the comics achieved. You can introduce some new characters in the story itself, but the majority of the team absolutely needs to be already clearly familiar with the audience, preferably with a least a few of them having a good, long history of familiarity.

Now, if Marvel wanted to take the next six years to introduce every single original member before doing the Thunderbolts and give at least a few of them a long history with the audience, I'd be happy. But that just does not seem even remotely likely at this point, so it's now pretty much down to either changing some (or most) of the roster or completely giving up on getting an even half decent adaptation of what the series is supposed to be about.

While that was certainly the premise of the original Thunderbolts story arc, that is hardly the only usage to which the team has been put in the succeeding decades. Long after the Thunderbolts big reveal, the team has been used to explore a bunch of other ideas related to villains finding redemption, or villainy masquerading as heroism. The MCU doesn't need to do a straightforward fake out, *that wouldn't ever work because the twist spoiler is decades old*, in order to explore that idea space.

 

[Bayne]

While that was certainly the premise of the original Thunderbolts story arc, that is hardly the only usage to which the team has been put in the succeeding decades. Long after the Thunderbolts big reveal, the team has been used to explore a bunch of other ideas related to villains finding redemption, or villainy masquerading as heroism. The MCU doesn't need to do a straightforward fake out, *that wouldn't ever work because the twist spoiler is decades old*, in order to explore that idea space.

I can see how you get that from the way I wrote this, but I actually wasn't only talking about the fake out. Obviously all this goes double for the fake out, but even without it this is still important. The entire way the Thunderbolts series approaches rehabilitation and redemption (or the lack thereof) is based on playing with the readers' expectations of these characters that they've already known from other stories. Doing it with brand new characters the audience knows nothing about other than what you tell them just isn't the same.

People need to already have a mental image of who the characters are (some of them at least) that the story can then challenge and play around with a bit. Otherwise it's way too easy for people to go, 'yeah, they say he used to do bad stuff but look he's trying so hard', etc. Even if you use flashbacks to show exactly how bad they used to be, you're still softening the blow of the characters' first impression way too much. Thunderbolts are supposed to have to convince the audience they're the good guys just as much as they have to convince the Avengers or the general public around them.

 

[The Lazarus Pit]

I’m all for a team made up of villains and characters from past films, rather than a team that resembles the comics. It’s a no brainer, only super fans would be upset. The general audience would love it!

 

[TheVileOne]

Ghost isn't even a villain. She was an innocent bystander and was just fighting to stay alive. By this logic, Batroc would make more sense, since he's an established recurring Marvel rogue and merc.

The basic scenario you need a team of career villains or rogues and they will eventually have to turn on their master or Zemo after they get into the tilt status of playing heroes.

This story doesn't work if we use a bunch of one-offs we've barely even seen on screen at all who aren't even really rogues or villains.

 

[Zarex]

I would say Ghost fits, as Walker and Blonsky don't fit neatly in the baddie category either. From what we know they were highly successful soldiers with exemplary track records who took a super steroid and went on to have a REALLY bad day. Ghost did something villainous out of desperation and now has no place to go. Enter the Contessa.

 

[metaphysician]

If Ghost did join up, she'd certainly be on the brighter end of the spectrum.