MCU X-Men

[Tony Stark]

No. They were powerless kids who got their powers through HYDRA experiments using the Mind Infinity Stone. If they were mutants, surely their powers would've manifested in the situation where they almost died and were waiting for a missile to blow up in the days they were buried under rubble.

That doesn't mean Mags can't be their father. In fact they were the only two that survived Strucker's experiments. Being the children of a mutant very well could be an explanation on why they survived, without changing the existing story line.

 

[squeekness]

I'd support racebending certain characters and raising the profiles of the X-men's diverse characters at the same time.

I guess it would depend on who they chose. I like my Gambit as is. I wouldn't want a radical change.

 

[TheVileOne]

That doesn't mean Mags can't be their father. In fact they were the only two that survived Strucker's experiments. Being the children of a mutant very well could be an explanation on why they survived, without changing the existing story line.

It's sort of a lame retcon IMHO after they went through the trouble of explaining their backstories.

 

[TheVileOne]

Hispanic Beast does not mean the inclusion of Angel or Iceman, so if that is your point, you'd agree with me 100%. I'm responding to your assertion about the diversity in X-Men's deep cuts, and pointing out how those deep cuts are not good choices for major characters in the films.

Here's a potential lineup for an X-Men movie:
Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Phoenix, Beast, Psylocke and Shadowcat as the kid sidekick.

Let's say that 7 heroes is all the story can handle, and let's say you also want to incorporate characters that experience modern racial and religious prejudice: African American males, Muslims, Hispanic immigrants, people who are considered enemies in real life by parts of the Western population. Which of these X-Men do you take out and who do you put in as new core X-Men to represent Muslims? African American males? Hispanic immigrants?

Or do you make these characters into minor characters, unimportant to the story and just there to tick a box so that you can then spend most of your time ignoring those characters? Can you do that and still tell a credible story about valuing people who are not like us?

Why Beast? What about Wolverine, Rogue, and Cyclops?

Who even says Wolverine has to be a white dude?

If we're going there, let's just put it all on table.

 

[kevork89]

It's sort of a lame retcon IMHO after they went through the trouble of explaining their backstories.

Spider-Fan and I discussed that they could also say the stone that created their power just unlocked their mutant gene instead.

 

[DrCosmic]

I guess it would depend on who they chose. I like my Gambit as is. I wouldn't want a radical change.

It very much depends on the character. Gambit is a very particular kind of country, as is Rogue. Warren is supposed to be old money in New England, which means White. Scott and Jean are supposed to be kinda plain, and so being White serves that. Characters like Bobby and Hank... they don't really need to be White, they just have to have backgrounds that don't make their names seem odd. Once we get down to characters like Dazzler the door is wide open, and, funny enough, once we get down to characters like Boom Boom, there is enough diversity at that level of the X-Men that you can use the existing diversity without creating really wonky X-Men rosters.

 

[Abudefduf]

To hell with waiting, just start the series with the most popular characters. Jean, Cyclops, Storm, Beast, Rogue and maybe Iceman are the ones I would pick. I want at least 2 or 3 movies with those guys.

Save Gambit, Nightcrawler and Shadowcat for the sequel, and Wolverine for Phase 5.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Do they retcon Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to be Mags' children now?

wasn't that a retcon in 616 anyway? a retcon that has since been retconned?

 

[DrCosmic]

Why Beast? What about Wolverine, Rogue, and Cyclops?

Who even says Wolverine has to be a white dude?

If we're going there, let's just put it all on table.

Let's. But "it all" includes the story. Wolverine is the story of a wealthy canadian kid from the 1880s. He's White. Rogue is a story about a country girl from a hippie commune in Mississippi. That's culturally a very White thing. Cyclops is supposed to be plain, and so while anyone can *be* Cyclops, being White serves his character as a shorthand. A license to racebend is not a license to tell stories that are not grounded in recognizable social experiences.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Let's. But "it all" includes the story. Wolverine is the story of a wealthy canadian kid from the 1880s. He's White. Rogue is a story about a country girl from a hippie commune in Mississippi. That's culturally a very White thing. Cyclops is supposed to be plain, and so while anyone can *be* Cyclops, being White serves his character as a shorthand. A license to racebend is not a license to tell stories that are not grounded in recognizable social experiences.

I'm pretty sure there were non-white Hippies

 

[TheVileOne]

Spider-Fan and I discussed that they could also say the stone that created their power just unlocked their mutant gene instead.

Well Pietro is still dead for now

 

[TheVileOne]

Let's. But "it all" includes the story. Wolverine is the story of a wealthy canadian kid from the 1880s. He's White. Rogue is a story about a country girl from a hippie commune in Mississippi. That's culturally a very White thing. Cyclops is supposed to be plain, and so while anyone can *be* Cyclops, being White serves his character as a shorthand. A license to racebend is not a license to tell stories that are not grounded in recognizable social experiences.

Except Marvel Studios changes the characters' stories and history frequently. Case in point, Zemo. No longer Baron Zemo and son of the Zemo family of Hydra and Nazi scientists. Zemo was a military man from Sokovia. He was a married man with a son, and his family died during the Ultron fight. He was part of a black ops and special forces group. Not HYDRA.

What's to keep them from totally changing those backgrounds to suit new racial or gender identities?

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm pretty sure there were non-white Hippies

Of course there are. The world is riddled with exceptional people, however exception begs questions. If that's not a question you want to draw your audience's attention to, then don't include that exceptionality. If your audience has been taught that Hippies are White, meet them where they are, that simple.

 

[DrCosmic]

Except Marvel Studios changes the characters' stories and history frequently. Case in point, Zemo. No longer Baron Zemo and son of the Zemo family of Hydra and Nazi scientists. Zemo was a military man from Sokovia. He was a married man with a son, and his family died during the Ultron fight. He was part of a black ops and special forces group. Not HYDRA.

Do you have a hero example? Marvel plays REALLY fast and loose with its villains, but the heroes' backgrounds are usually quite accurate, and that's part of the appeal of the megafranchise.

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Of course there are. The world is riddled with exceptional people, however exception begs questions. If that's not a question you want to draw your audience's attention to, then don't include that exceptionality. If your audience has been taught that Hippies are White, meet them where they are, that simple.

I'm pretty sure, there were A LOT of non-white Hippies

 

[Dasher10]

X-Men don't need to be racebent. They have Storm, Dust, Psylocke, M, Bishop, Warpath, Sunfire, Jubilee, Anarchist, Cecelia Reyes, Surge, Sunspot, Skin, Rictor, Forge, Armor, El Guapo, Thunderbird, Omega Sentinel, Synch, Rockslide, Venus Dee Milo and Prodigy all as major characters. Stevie Hunter as a supporting character.

That was just off the top of my head.

Edit: Wind Dancer, Maggot, Bedlam, Tag and Mondo. I forgot them.

When you add country or origin and religion, you have an even more diverse cast. Number of white, male, heterosexual Protestant or religiously unaffiliated American characters in contrast? Cyclops, Archangel, Cannonball, Beast and Havok. That's all of five characters. The X-Men's greatest strength is in how diverse the cast is.

 

[TheVileOne]

Do you have a hero example? Marvel plays REALLY fast and loose with its villains, but the heroes' backgrounds are usually quite accurate, and that's part of the appeal of the megafranchise.

Multiples.

Well, look at Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. They made them Sokovian war orphans who blamed Tony Stark for the loss of their home. Instead of Magneto's biological children and mutants who join the Brotherhood.

Bucky became a member of the Howling Commandoes and just a regular soldier. He was never Captain America's kid sidekick.

Hawkeye. Hawkeye started out as a super-villain and con artist who ran afoul of Iron Man. In the 1960s, Iron Man and Captain America vouched for Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to join the Avengers after they had gone straight. In the movies he was a career SHIELD agent.

Nick Fury became the Samuel L. Jackson version from Ultimates. They got rid of his backstory of fighting in World War II and leading the Howling Commandoes.

 

[Chance Jackson]

Hispanic Beast does not mean the inclusion of Angel or Iceman, so if that is your point, you'd agree with me 100%. I'm responding to your assertion about the diversity in X-Men's deep cuts, and pointing out how those deep cuts are not good choices for major characters in the films.

Here's a potential lineup for an X-Men movie:
Cyclops, Storm, Rogue, Phoenix, Beast, Psylocke and Shadowcat as the kid sidekick.

Let's say that 7 heroes is all the story can handle, and let's say you also want to incorporate characters that experience modern racial and religious prejudice: African American males, Muslims, Hispanic immigrants, people who are considered enemies in real life by parts of the Western population. Which of these X-Men do you take out and who do you put in as new core X-Men to represent Muslims? African American males? Hispanic immigrants?

Or do you make these characters into minor characters, unimportant to the story and just there to tick a box so that you can then spend most of your time ignoring those characters? Can you do that and still tell a credible story about valuing people who are not like us?

Pretty compelling perspective

 

[R_Hythlodeus]

Well, look at Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. They made them Sokovian war orphans who blamed Tony Stark for the loss of their home. Instead of Magneto's biological children

and mutants who join the Brotherhood.

They also didn't make them the children of Whizzer and Miss America. Why? because that's an origin story that's not longer valid.

However: It is still possible that her parents were named Django and Marya Maximoff, just like in the comics

 

[Iceman]

X-Men don't need to be racebent. They have Storm, Dust, Psylocke, M, Bishop, Warpath, Sunfire, Jubilee, Anarchist, Cecelia Reyes, Surge, Sunspot, Skin, Rictor, Forge, Armor, El Guapo, Thunderbird, Omega Sentinel, Synch, Rockslide, Venus Dee Milo and Prodigy all as major characters. Stevie Hunter as a supporting character.

That was just off the top of my head.

Edit: Wind Dancer, Maggot, Bedlam, Tag and Mondo. I forgot them.

When you add country or origin and religion, you have an even more diverse cast. Number of white, male, heterosexual Protestant or religiously unaffiliated American characters in contrast? Cyclops, Archangel, Cannonball, Beast and Havok. That's all of five characters. The X-Men's greatest strength is in how diverse the cast is.

True. If you have Storm, Psylocke and Jubilee around early on you're already almost there.

 

[DrCosmic]

I'm pretty sure, there were A LOT of non-white Hippies

As am I. How does that meet the audience where they are and address audience questions?

X-Men don't need to be racebent. They have Storm, Dust, Psylocke, M, Bishop, Warpath, Sunfire, Jubilee, Anarchist, Cecelia Reyes, Surge, Sunspot, Skin, Rictor, Forge, Armor, El Guapo, Thunderbird, Omega Sentinel, Synch, Rockslide, Venus Dee Milo and Prodigy all as major characters. Stevie Hunter as a supporting character.

That was just off the top of my head.

Edit: Wind Dancer, Maggot, Bedlam, Tag and Mondo. I forgot them.

When you add country or origin and religion, you have an even more diverse cast. Number of white, male, heterosexual Protestant or religiously unaffiliated American characters in contrast? Cyclops, Archangel, Cannonball, Beast and Havok. That's all of five characters. The X-Men's greatest strength is in how diverse the cast is.

I hear you, but if the MCU X-Men from start is Scott, Jean, Storm, Wind Dancer, Omega Sentinel and Mondo, people will have an issue that these minor characters are given focus on Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Beast and a host of others. Even fans of those characters may take issue with Wind Dancer being Scotts age and ending up teaching Wither and Prodigy instead of being involved with them as a peer. Most of the diversity in the X-Men is totally irrelevant to the first few films, as those characters are too obscure and there are too many key X-Men to do 'justice' to.

Multiples.

Well, look at Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch. They made them Sokovian war orphans who blamed Tony Stark for the loss of their home. Instead of Magneto's biological children and mutants who join the Brotherhood.

Bucky became a member of the Howling Commandoes and just a regular soldier. He was never Captain America's kid sidekick.

Hawkeye. Hawkeye started out as a super-villain and con artist who ran afoul of Iron Man. In the 1960s, Iron Man and Captain America vouched for Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver to join the Avengers after they had gone straight. In the movies he was a career SHIELD agent.

Nick Fury became the Samuel L. Jackson version from Ultimates. They got rid of his backstory of fighting in World War II and leading the Howling Commandoes.

Ah, so these are changes which serve the story by dropping unavailable characters or comic book continuity that is exclusive to 616. Cool, but not really applicable to changing Scott's role in the X-Men lore, or Gambit's basic background that works in any continuity. The MCU changes this for specific reasons that don't apply to the X-Men whose Whiteness complements their background.

 

[Dasher10]

True. If you have Storm, Psylocke and Jubilee around early on you're already almost there.

Not even just for diversity reasons but also because of the character's popularity, we shouldn't get the 05. Start in media res with the team already assembled. We don't need an origin story. I can't see X-Men done without Storm.

 

[Dasher10]

I hear you, but if the MCU X-Men from start is Scott, Jean, Storm, Wind Dancer, Omega Sentinel and Mondo, people will have an issue that these minor characters are given focus on Colossus, Nightcrawler, Wolverine, Beast and a host of others. Even fans of those characters may take issue with Wind Dancer being Scotts age and ending up teaching Wither and Prodigy instead of being involved with them as a peer. Most of the diversity in the X-Men is totally irrelevant to the first few films, as those characters are too obscure and there are too many key X-Men to do 'justice' to.

Wind Dancer should be saved for New Mutants.

But if the roster starts with Storm and Psylocke on the team (and in this continuity, Psylocke would be Captain Britain's half-sister and she was always Asian) and Bishop joining the team in the first film, that works for me.

IMO, the roster for the first MCU film needs to be

Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Psylocke, Jean Grey, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, Shadowcat and Colossus with Beast, Forge and Xavier back at the X-Mansion in supporting roles. Archangel would get injured early on and reappear in X-Force. That's a perfect roster right there.

 

[squeekness]

It very much depends on the character. Gambit is a very particular kind of country, as is Rogue. Warren is supposed to be old money in New England, which means White. Scott and Jean are supposed to be kinda plain, and so being White serves that. Characters like Bobby and Hank... they don't really need to be White, they just have to have backgrounds that don't make their names seem odd. Once we get down to characters like Dazzler the door is wide open, and, funny enough, once we get down to characters like Boom Boom, there is enough diversity at that level of the X-Men that you can use the existing diversity without creating really wonky X-Men rosters.

I could live with this.

 

[Iceman]

Wind Dancer should be saved for New Mutants.

But if the roster starts with Storm and Psylocke on the team (and in this continuity, Psylocke would be Captain Britain's half-sister and she was always Asian) and Bishop joining the team in the first film, that works for me.

IMO, the roster for the first MCU film needs to be

Cyclops, Storm, Wolverine, Psylocke, Jean Grey, Bishop, Rogue, Gambit, Shadowcat and Colossus with Beast, Forge and Xavier back at the X-Mansion in supporting roles. Archangel would get injured early on and reappear in X-Force. That's a perfect roster right there.

Sounds like too many characters for a first film. Also I don't think you can introduce Bishop and time travel too early on.