Michael Keaton: Overrated?

[IBRAH08]

although it may not be written this way I have always liked to think of Bruce being just over six feet with Dick Grayson actually being a little taller. Bruce has a stockier frame and grayson is slightly lankier. Again this is just how I like to pretend it is in my mind, not comic accurate. I dunno.

 

[baerrtt]

I don't care if a big screen movie matches a comic like for like and I truly wish some of you start getting into that mindset.

What Keaton delivered, what HE was hired for, was to deliver a Bruce Wayne that was grounded and relatable to an audience that wouldn't automatically find the idea of a handsome millionaire a hero you would feel sorry for despite his origin.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I don't understand why. It's not like he's 4". You're looking too much in to it. So Bale's off by a few inches, who cares? Is he somehow less intimidating? If there's some height discrepancy you should whine about, it should be Hugh Jackman as Wolverine; as he's a full foot taller than his comic book counterpart.

yup. Being short is actually part of Wolverine's character; Batman's height is not.

 

[returntovoid]

I think Christian Bale as Batman in BB and Michael Keaton in B89/BR were equally great in the role but I don't think Bale did a great job in TDK due to the weak Batsuit, less emphasis on Batman, lack of edge/intimidation factor that he brought to the character and Batman's character was written more naive/less motivated than in BB.

yup. Being short is actually part of Wolverine's character; Batman's height is not.

Just imagine if Michael Keaton played Wolverine in a late 80's or early 90's X-Men film???

Anyway, this height argument is getting too much.

 

[david icke]

Outside of some hardcore Batman fans, I don't know that Keaton's role was that highly rated. Certainly not on a scale as someone like Chris Reeve with Superman. There wasn't any major outcry when he was replaced by Kilmer, no-one in the mainstream press/media seemed that bothered about it. I can imagine there would have been a big outcry in the mainstream press if Reeve had left/fallen out with the direction of the series after SMII.
So, I think he got about the right amount of 'rate' as he deserved. He held himself well and did the character some justice in his role as the first serious Batman onscreen, but was not the actor who fulfilled all the criteria for the role imo, and i think this was reflected in the fact that he was not as highly regarded as Reeve.
I think this is happening with Bale and Nolan though, people in the mainstream are looking at these movies and wondering why they weren't done like this before, and reralising just how good a Batman tale can be.
as for being intimidating...that is a large part of Batman's character, so yes, height and physical stature can be an issue in that regard, Batman has never been a shorty in the books.
Funnily enough i think it's more of an issue with a live action Batman than Wolverine, as Batman has no superpowers, and we need to believe to an extent that this guy could handle himself in a fight.
I know that Wolverine was always portrayed as the 'runt', but most of the time while reading my X-Men and Wolverine comics, his height did not cross my mind at all until someone made a point of bringing it up, it didn't really have that much of a bearing on the stories.

 

[Cain]

I don't think Bale has encompassed the role like that at all, a lot of people complain about him in the role (ie: the voice) and he hasn't even become a star on the level of the post 89 pre-BR Keaton yet after 2 movies. No the real star of this new iteration of the franchise in the eyes of the general public is Nolan's vision.

Now as far as Bale is concerned I've been disappointed in him myself considering I always wanted to see him in the role years before BB I didn't think that would happen. However I start to hate BB the moment he becomes Batman which is ironic since I'm a huge Bat nerd but it just becomes a chore for me to see it.

Where as I liked him a lot in TDK where many in here have said that they did not, I just liked how distant yet fully involved he seemed. The optimistic naivette Batman had in BB was all but gone and he got closer to becoming the Batman we all know because of it. But enough about that cause this topic is about Keaton I just had to put that out there.

 

[Mr. Earle]

People say that Bale isnt a good Bruce/Batman only because of the voice? OK, the voice in TDK was bad, but the rest of him was great. And he was even better in BB when his voice wasnt edited and the movie focused on his character.

As for Keaton, since the Burton movies were such a huge success, anyone would have been as revered if he only had done an adequate job in the first serious Batman movie to ever grace the silver screen. Keaton was good, but not as good as nostalgia fans make him out to be. He was a good version batman, but not THE Batman.

 

[The Joker]

Now as far as Bale is concerned I've been disappointed in him myself considering I always wanted to see him in the role years before BB I didn't think that would happen. However I start to hate BB the moment he becomes Batman which is ironic since I'm a huge Bat nerd but it just becomes a chore for me to see it.

I agree with this.

 

[Cain]

People say that Bale isnt a good Bruce/Batman only because of the voice? OK, the voice in TDK was bad, but the rest of him was great. And he was even better in BB when his voice wasnt edited and the movie focused on his character.

As for Keaton, since the Burton movies were such a huge success, anyone would have been as revered if he only had done an adequate job in the first serious Batman movie to ever grace the silver screen. Keaton was good, but not as good as nostalgia fans make him out to be. He was a good version batman, but not THE Batman.

I still don't think we've ever seen THE Batman in modern live action film but I will say this is also why I know one day they will nail it. So I have faith that whoever comes after Bale could be even better in the role. This is why I love the Batman film franchise cause it's the American Bond franchise my kids will have this conversation with other kids one day lol it's never ending.

 

[Mr. Earle]

I think Bale is very close to it. He's Bruce in his early years as seen in Year One which is canon btw. Yeah maybe he isnt as dark and of course there are changes to the story (it isnt a direct adaptation of the comics canon), but i think the characterisation is spot on.

 

[Cain]

I think Bale is very close to it. He's Bruce in his early years as seen in Year One which is canon btw. Yeah maybe he isnt as dark and of course there are changes to the story (it isnt a direct adaptation of the comics canon), but i think the characterisation is spot on.

Really?!?

"I did not know that"

and I still prefer Kilmer's Wayne to anybody else in live action but Adam West. You could still portray a rich buffoon to the public with a little class and not with jerky fratboy antics and mannerisms.

 

[chamber-music]

Kilmer looked like he was sleep walking through the role. He was on auto pilot. Don't know if it was the script or what but Kilmer charisma was definetly not turned on in Batman Forever. I prefer Bales rich snob Bruce Wayne his kind of a jerk but in works in the context of the nolan movies.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Really?!?

"I did not know that"

Sarcasm?

and I still prefer Kilmer's Wayne to anybody else in live action but Adam West. You could still portray a rich buffoon to the public with a little class and not with jerky fratboy antics and mannerisms.

But that's what Bruce was doing in his early career anyway. During Batman's first appearences most people would suspect of him (Gordon even paid him a visit to question him) and his cover had to be even stronger.
Only later did he change into the businessman-philanthropist.

 

[chamber-music]

I think sometimes people forget Bales Batman has only just started with BB and TDK taking place over the first two years as Batman.

Bruce is still learning to be Batman. He hasn't got a proper Batcave, Batmobile and is still working on a suit that works best for him. Its not like his been Batman for years his a rookie.

 

[Cain]

Sarcasm?

si

But that's what Bruce was doing in his early career anyway. During Batman's first appearences most people would suspect of him (Gordon even paid him a visit to question him) and his cover had to be even stronger.
Only later did he change into the businessman-philanthropist.

Really? because I've been reading Batman comics since I was a 5 year old boy and never when they discussed his earlier days did Bruce act like Nolan's Bruce. Keep in mind I grew up during the post-crisis era from the late 80's all the way up to Infinite Crisis so I've read more than my fair share of Batman stories that are still canonical to this day.

Bruce Wayne played a drunken rich guy but not a jerk in Year One their is a difference. He didn't go around insulting Gordon and calling him names when he & his wife came to his house in year one when he joked around with him.

If he needed people out of his house he created a diversion he never essentially kicked them out without being good humored about it regardless of the circumstances. In Year One he even used self deprecating humor he may have been a rich himbo but he wasn't an insulting jerk either.

It's ok it's a reinterpretation ADAPTATIONS mean that it will be some thematics adapted to a medium different from the original source. Which is why I appreciate all the movies and don't often bother nitpicking them about "not true to the comics" like many self appointed know-it-all's on here do. The point is not a literal translation but a reinterpretation into another medium keeping the thematics intact.

I just didn't like this particular one. A more imaginative change at least would've been more welcome. I found that it was too cliche in the sense that it's been done in many movies before and of course as a comic book fan it bothered me that it was way too Tony Stark and not enough Bruce Wayne to balance it out.

I mean it didn't even really fit the fact that Bruce's playboy mask is just a dumbed down clumsy extension of who he really is. Which is the juxtaposition the Bruce Alfred knows is determined and strong while the one every one else knows is naive and more frail. But both are kind and likeable. He's awkward and corny but not obnoxious.

No actor has been written fully right as Bruce to a tee but I would say the first 4 movies all had elements of who the public Bruce Wayne really is much more so than Nolan's to me.

 

[Cain]

I think sometimes people forget Bales Batman has only just started with BB and TDK taking place over the first two years as Batman.

Bruce is still learning to be Batman. He hasn't got a proper Batcave, Batmobile and is still working on a suit that works best for him. Its not like his been Batman for years his a rookie.

So was Keaton's.

 

[Mr. Earle]

si

Really? because I've been reading Batman comics since I was a 5 year old boy and never when they discussed his earlier days did Bruce act like Nolan's Bruce. Keep in mind I grew up during the post-crisis era from the late 80's all the way up to Infinite Crisis so I've read more than my fair share of Batman stories that are still canonical to this day.

Bruce Wayne played a drunken rich guy but not a jerk in Year One their is a difference. He didn't go around insulting Gordon and calling him names when he & his wife came to his house in year one when he joked around with him.

If he needed people out of his house he created a diversion he never essentially kicked them out without being good humored about it regardless of the circumstances. In Year One he even used self deprecating humor he may have been a rich himbo but he wasn't an insulting jerk either.

It's ok it's a reinterpretation ADAPTATIONS mean that it will be some thematics adapted to a medium different from the original source. Which is why I appreciate all the movies and don't often bother nitpicking them about "not true to the comics" like many self appointed know-it-all's on here do. The point is not a literal translation but a reinterpretation into another medium keeping the thematics intact.

I just didn't like this particular one. A more imaginative change at least would've been more welcome. I found that it was too cliche in the sense that it's been done in many movies before and of course as a comic book fan it bothered me that it was way too Tony Stark and not enough Bruce Wayne to balance it out.

I mean it didn't even really fit the fact that Bruce's playboy mask is just a dumbed down clumsy extension of who he really is. Which is the juxtaposition the Bruce Alfred knows is determined and strong while the one every one else knows is naive and more frail. But both are kind and likeable. He's awkward and corny but not obnoxious.

No actor has been written fully right as Bruce to a tee but I would say the first 4 movies all had elements of who the public Bruce Wayne really is much more so than Nolan's to me.

I was talking about Year One. He acted drunk and obnoxious to avoid suspicion. Where did you see Bale insult Gordon anyway?

Besides, in TDK he didnt act drunk. He acted like a spoiled rich kid who doesnt read the news ("should i go to a hospital?"). Dent would obviously despise him since he is poor.

 

[Cain]

I was talking about Year One. He acted drunk and obnoxious to avoid suspicion. Where did you see Bale insult Gordon anyway?

Besides, in TDK he didnt act drunk. He acted like a spoiled rich kid who doesnt read the news ("should i go to a hospital?"). Dent would obviously despise him since he is poor.

Nowhere but he's been insulting in his movies as public Bruce particularly BB but I mentioned Gordon's name cause I KNOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT YEAR ONE lol and I'm talking about THAT same scene. He says his time is worthless, he offers Gordon and his wife drinks, he cooperates and answers the questions. He may have played a rich drunk but there is nothing genuinely obnoxious about it, he's not being rude. TDK did a better job with public Bruce than BB did btw.

 

[david icke]

I don't think Bale has encompassed the role like that at all, a lot of people complain about him in the role (ie: the voice) and he hasn't even become a star on the level of the post 89 pre-BR Keaton yet after 2 movies. No the real star of this new iteration of the franchise in the eyes of the general public is Nolan's vision.

Now as far as Bale is concerned I've been disappointed in him myself considering I always wanted to see him in the role years before BB I didn't think that would happen. However I start to hate BB the moment he becomes Batman which is ironic since I'm a huge Bat nerd but it just becomes a chore for me to see it.

Where as I liked him a lot in TDK where many in here have said that they did not, I just liked how distant yet fully involved he seemed. The optimistic naivette Batman had in BB was all but gone and he got closer to becoming the Batman we all know because of it. But enough about that cause this topic is about Keaton I just had to put that out there.

Ok, but I just have to say I am sorry that you feel that way about the Bale Batman in BB.
I love the scenes with his Batman, that first conversation with Gordon when he is in full costume, felt like it was the books made flesh; the interrogation of Flass, the first time we have seen Batman be absolutely totally intimidating, Keaton's 'I'm Batman' was cool, but this was more of the real deal, the kind of thing I read in the comics, but only when i saw this scene could i see how this might play out in the flesh, it was phenomenal. The batman under the fear gas, too good.
All the interactions with Gordon are great, i just like the 2nd one best because it is closest to the usual conferences.
Even just little things with Bm talking about the fear gas to Gordon, just felt real, the way the stuff in the books would play out, straight and to the point, with no feeling of 'this is stupid' with a guy in a bat-mask talking about fear toxin etc.
Man, I wish you felt the same way, because as a long term fan like yourself, I felt i finally got the Batman i had been waiting on appearing in a movie. Same goes with TDK, but those first moments in BB, great, I just wanted more of them.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

I think he just hadn't really thought about a "public" persona for Bruce Wayne in BB. He was more or less taken by surprise and had to improvise something. All he cared about was getting the "Batman project" running.

 

[Vakanai]

Keaton has been my favorite Batman actor to date. Very human, very intense, just perfect onscreen.

Well,the BB suit made him look like the BTAS Batman while the second one was just horrible...I hope that the next one will provide a look closer to the comics but I think that for that to happen we'll have to wait until the next series starts

I don't think they'd ever get the animated or comics version of the Batman costume in live action film.
It's basically cloth, with dark undies. It works in animation, but for live action I just don't see it translating well.
It's like Adam West's costume. Wouldn't work now.

 

[Bathead]

Keaton has been my favorite Batman actor to date. Very human, very intense, just perfect onscreen.


I don't think they'd ever get the animated or comics version of the Batman costume in live action film.
It's basically cloth, with dark undies. It works in animation, but for live action I just don't see it translating well.
It's like Adam West's costume. Wouldn't work now.

Although a more proper thread for discussing this would be the BB3 batsuit discusssion thread, I have to say that you are just plain mistaken. First off , you have no proof that a proper comics styled suit wouldn't work ,as it hasn't been done yet in a high budget movie with a well financed costume designer and department, it wouldn't be "basically cloth with dark undies" and it would be NOTHING like Adam West's costume, that costume is irrelevant as to what could be done by a proper costume dept.

 

[returntovoid]

Both Michael Keaton and Christian Bale were great as Batman/Bruce Wayne.

What makes it difficult for me to decide exactly who was better is that I thought...

Michael Keaton was great as Batman in both Batman 89 and Batman Returns.

Christian Bale was great as Batman in only Batman Begins but not The Dark Knight.

And no, my opinion is not the usual consensus of Keaton is the best Batman and Bale is the best Bruce Wayne.

Here's my ranking of the Bat-actors:

1. Kevin Conroy (he just is Batman, he is Batman in voice-over more than the actors that have physically played the character)

2. Michael Keaton/Christian Bale Tied (the best actors to play the live-action Batman, minus only The Dark Knight out of the two Bale Batman films)

3. Val Kilmer (he played a good Batman in a half campy and half light/dark film of the series minus some cheesy dialogues he was given, he was the only apparent redeeming quality about Batman Forever but that's because he hated the direction of Forever and really admired the Burton films)

4. Adam West (although I despise the campy 60's TV show, West's campy Batman was 100x better than the one played by Clooney)

5. George Clooney (probably the worst Batman portrayal in the all out campy/sheerfully awful film that is the epitome of a bad comic book film, what makes it even worse is that a good actor like Clooney portrayed it but due to bad script/not taking his role seriously made him bad in the role. At least his portrayal as Bruce Wayne was good but it's terrible that as Batman, it was just Clooney playing Clooney in a halloween costume)

 

[Vakanai]

Although a more proper thread for discussing this would be the BB3 batsuit discusssion thread, I have to say that you are just plain mistaken. First off , you have no proof that a proper comics styled suit wouldn't work ,as it hasn't been done yet in a high budget movie with a well financed costume designer and department, it wouldn't be "basically cloth with dark undies" and it would be NOTHING like Adam West's costume, that costume is irrelevant as to what could be done by a proper costume dept.

True, I don't have proof. It is just my opinion, but as my first words were 'I don't think' I set up that those were just my thoughts. Though I don't see how a big budget would really change it. The visual from the comics is fairly simple. It may not be cloth, but it certainly look like it from my viewpoint. It may not be done in the Adam West style, but it would be hard to imagine an effective live action version of it, at least for me.
As for a more proper thread for discussing it, I didn't mean to make a discussion out of it really. It was more of an offhand comment while I was stating my more on topic opinion of Keaton being my favorite Bat actor yet (just rewatched Batman 89, Keaton really gives something different to his Batman take).
Sorry if I upset you.

 

[david icke]

True, I don't have proof. It is just my opinion, but as my first words were 'I don't think' I set up that those were just my thoughts. Though I don't see how a big budget would really change it. The visual from the comics is fairly simple. It may not be cloth, but it certainly look like it from my viewpoint. It may not be done in the Adam West style, but it would be hard to imagine an effective live action version of it, at least for me.
As for a more proper thread for discussing it, I didn't mean to make a discussion out of it really. It was more of an offhand comment while I was stating my more on topic opinion of Keaton being my favorite Bat actor yet (just rewatched Batman 89, Keaton really gives something different to his Batman take).
Sorry if I upset you.

Dude, don't worry about it, I'm sure Bathead is not upset. I posted a similar thought over on the spider-man boards about the cloth BM outfit and a couple of people, bathead included iirc, interjected with the same opinion.

For me, I don't care how good a cloth outfit looks, and i don't care how good Batman's ninja skills are, I prefer knowing that a character who is constantly surrounded by armed crooks has some armour in there. It makes me believe the stories are more realistic, and it not just by magic that he is not stabbed or shot in a way that would kill him, because he would be vulnerable at some points to that, no matter how skilled.
I'm glad they armoured him up in the movies, and brought this to the comics to an extent now too. I am fine with all my old BM comics having him in a cloth outfit, but I think they would have been more plausible and believable to have him a little armoured.
Same as with the ropes, giving him little jet propulsion cables etc, rather than a rope with a batarang at the end, feels much better for the character, after all he is not superpowered like Spider-man.

The movies improved aspects of the character in this regard. Fake muscle outfit, no, but a little armour, yes.

sorry, offtopic, but, ah well.