Miller is overrated.

[The Question]

funny, I don't remember anybody jumping down the throats of the people who mobbed the original poster for his views. Didn't he get a big picture of the gay dude from South Park saying "that's super" and a bunch of responses that tried to shut him down immediately? I thought THAT was rude. Hmm.

It was rude. I just hadn't really noticed it.

 

[CConn]

I noticed, I just didn't care.

 

[Shuley]

I'm talking about Frank Millar, not Mark. Ever since Sin City the movie came out, he's been oogled over by fans, but I just don't think his stuff is any good. I read the Daredevil stuff, year one, sin city (and the movie) and, DK and DKR, and read the new Batman & Robin stuff, but aside from Y.O. I don't think any of it is good. It's just the same over the top, gritty crap with different characters. Even the movie, which yes, if I didn't like the comic, I wouldn't like the movie... i thought was bad. Granted, I'd still pay the $7.50 to see Alba work a pole, but aside from the artistic perspective, the movie wasn't worth my time. And now he's going to be writing and directing a Spirit movie? why? Maybe I have to read some spirit stuff, but from what I've read, he doesn't seem to fit to Millar's suit. Can someone help me out here?

Cause you don't see what other people are seeing.Yes his stuff is excellent and his DRK changed comics.Miller is hot or miss,but when he hits it,it's the best.He's know for his storytelling,not for his anatomy or personal style.Aside from that I'd like to know what some of your favorite movies are...

 

[Mladen]

I'm seconding Flasher's point: How on earth is Frank Miller a good fit for writing a Spirit movie?

Either way, he's a bad writer who has managed to write a couple of really good books. A couple of home-runs does not make you a good writer if you strike out every other time... Actually, he's more like that kid in Mighty Ducks who could hit the puck really hard but couldn't skate to save his life.

Also:
http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20060207****es.png

 

[PhotoJones]

That's pretty good.

 

[souloffire]

I'm seconding Flasher's point: How on earth is Frank Miller a good fit for writing a Spirit movie?

Either way, he's a bad writer who has managed to write a couple of really good books. A couple of home-runs does not make you a good writer if you strike out every other time... Actually, he's more like that kid in Mighty Ducks who could hit the puck really hard but couldn't skate to save his life.

Daredevil, DKR, Year 1, Ronin, Sin City, Hard Boiled, 300, Martha Washington, that's more than a couple of home runs.

 

[Darthphere]

That's pretty good.

Yeah except I see Frank Miller as one of those pretentious dick bags that would use a typewriter.

 

[PhotoJones]

Yeah except I see Frank Miller as one of those pretentious dick bags that would use a typewriter.

That's probably true.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I'm seconding Flasher's point: How on earth is Frank Miller a good fit for writing a Spirit movie?

Either way, he's a bad writer who has managed to write a couple of really good books. A couple of home-runs does not make you a good writer if you strike out every other time... Actually, he's more like that kid in Mighty Ducks who could hit the puck really hard but couldn't skate to save his life.

Also:
http://www.shortpacked.com/comics/20060207****es.png

haha exactly

 

[Mr. Sinister05]

Well, at least the Spirit project seems more interesting than that proposed comic about Batman vs. Al Quaida.

 

[Mladen]

Daredevil, DKR, Year 1, Ronin, Sin City, Hard Boiled, 300, Martha Washington, that's more than a couple of home runs.

My opinions on those books aside (I hated Ronin for example), he's still not consistent enough for me to class him as a great writer (more of a five-hit wonder if anything). We have different criteria for what makes a good writer, but to me its either somebody who either pushes themselves to create/explore something new/different with each creation (which he stopped doing about a decade ago), or somebody who continuously hones their craft to the point of storytelling perfection while not re-treading the same thematic ground (which he also stopped doing, when he started falling into the same patterns over and over again). Its a shame, because he's definately a creator who had a lot of promise, and he used to have a lot of passion for the medium as well. He's a lot like Stephen King or Michael Crichton, who have both written some amazing books, but fell into a lazy cycle at some point in their career (probably when the money started to roll in).

His artwork swings wildly as well, sometimes its very well done (300, DKR, some Sin City), other times its weak (Ronin), and yet other times its downright lazy and sketchy (DKSA).

My personal problem with him is that he always writes the same (or similar characters). His heroes are sadistic emotionless MANLY men (Marv in different outfits), who ALWAYS speak in gritty monologue. His villains are effeminate girly men, or their emotions are perceived as a weakness (in fact any character who expresses their emotions is written as a coward, a fool, deserving of a beat-down or at least complete contempt from every other character). If he writes a heroic woman, she acts exactly like his men (cold, emotionless except for anger, sadistic), except with pronounced butt and breasts and worrying posture. Usually she'll be a prostitute or stripper, and she'll always be talked down to by the men (and she'll damn well like it!).
If its meant to be satirical, then he's only satirising himself, which is a bit *********ory.

He comes across as insecure, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic, and downright lazy and complacent.

I do LOVE a handful of his work (Year One and DKR were among what got me into comics in the first place), but they seem like flukes when you compare them to the crap he's producing now. Its like when a great band gets old and starts going downhill, sullying their own name in the process when the fans realise that what they hate in the new stuff (repeating formulas and characterisations in Miller's case) were always there in the old stuff, they just never noticed it until now. He's a hack writer who has written some great books.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I'm inclined to agree with the threadstarter...

 

[larryfilmmaker]

My personal problem with him is that he always writes the same (or similar characters). His heroes are sadistic emotionless MANLY men (Marv in different outfits), who ALWAYS speak in gritty monologue. His villains are effeminate girly men, or their emotions are perceived as a weakness (in fact any character who expresses their emotions is written as a coward, a fool, deserving of a beat-down or at least complete contempt from every other character). If he writes a heroic woman, she acts exactly like his men (cold, emotionless except for anger, sadistic), except with pronounced butt and breasts and worrying posture. Usually she'll be a prostitute or stripper, and she'll always be talked down to by the men (and she'll damn well like it!).
If its meant to be satirical, then he's only satirising himself, which is a bit *********ory.

He comes across as insecure, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic, and downright lazy and complacent.

I do LOVE a handful of his work (Year One and DKR were among what got me into comics in the first place), but they seem like flukes when you compare them to the crap he's producing now. Its like when a great band gets old and starts going downhill, sullying their own name in the process when the fans realise that what they hate in the new stuff (repeating formulas and characterisations in Miller's case) were always there in the old stuff, they just never noticed it until now. He's a hack writer who has written some great books.

Wow. I agree 100% and this is the most intelligent way it's been expressed yet. It's hard to argue when you break it down like that.

 

[Flash-er]

wow... I'm impressed. a thread I started that's longer than 2 pages AND people've stayed on topic! Awesome!

I just saw 300 not that long ago... also saw the History channel's program on it. Sadly, I liked the History lesson better.

While the movie had some fun/interesting parts, I don't need to be constantly reminded that "in a small space, numbers amount to nothing" over and over and over again, let alone the rest of his repititious dialogue.

so the three things that he can write about now is... 1. hookers/easy women. 2. over the top violence. and 3. repeating the same phrase over and over again.

he may have had some good stuff years ago, but what's he done lately? ASBAR? LMAO. Oh, and I was able to get the word "tit" in this. Frank would be proud.

 

[Shuley]

wow... I'm impressed. a thread I started that's longer than 2 pages AND people've stayed on topic! Awesome!

I just saw 300 not that long ago... also saw the History channel's program on it. Sadly, I liked the History lesson better.

While the movie had some fun/interesting parts, I don't need to be constantly reminded that "in a small space, numbers amount to nothing" over and over and over again, let alone the rest of his repititious dialogue.

so the three things that he can write about now is... 1. hookers/easy women. 2. over the top violence. and 3. repeating the same phrase over and over again.

he may have had some good stuff years ago, but what's he done lately? ASBAR? LMAO. Oh, and I was able to get the word "tit" in this. Frank would be proud.

Are you religious at all?

 

[Andy C.]

Mladen summed it up perfectly. As much as I enjoyed Daredevil and Batman: Year One, Miller has since become a one-trick pony who relies more on shock value (OMG BATMAN JUST BEAT UP SUPERMAN!!~!1!) than any actual substance. He's more or less the Howard Stern of comic books.

 

[Andy C.]

Are you religious at all?

What does that have to do with not liking 300 ?

 

[Sandman138]

My opinions on those books aside (I hated Ronin for example), he's still not consistent enough for me to class him as a great writer (more of a five-hit wonder if anything). We have different criteria for what makes a good writer, but to me its either somebody who either pushes themselves to create/explore something new/different with each creation (which he stopped doing about a decade ago), or somebody who continuously hones their craft to the point of storytelling perfection while not re-treading the same thematic ground (which he also stopped doing, when he started falling into the same patterns over and over again). Its a shame, because he's definately a creator who had a lot of promise, and he used to have a lot of passion for the medium as well. He's a lot like Stephen King or Michael Crichton, who have both written some amazing books, but fell into a lazy cycle at some point in their career (probably when the money started to roll in).

His artwork swings wildly as well, sometimes its very well done (300, DKR, some Sin City), other times its weak (Ronin), and yet other times its downright lazy and sketchy (DKSA).

My personal problem with him is that he always writes the same (or similar characters). His heroes are sadistic emotionless MANLY men (Marv in different outfits), who ALWAYS speak in gritty monologue. His villains are effeminate girly men, or their emotions are perceived as a weakness (in fact any character who expresses their emotions is written as a coward, a fool, deserving of a beat-down or at least complete contempt from every other character). If he writes a heroic woman, she acts exactly like his men (cold, emotionless except for anger, sadistic), except with pronounced butt and breasts and worrying posture. Usually she'll be a prostitute or stripper, and she'll always be talked down to by the men (and she'll damn well like it!).
If its meant to be satirical, then he's only satirising himself, which is a bit *********ory.

He comes across as insecure, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic, and downright lazy and complacent.

I do LOVE a handful of his work (Year One and DKR were among what got me into comics in the first place), but they seem like flukes when you compare them to the crap he's producing now. Its like when a great band gets old and starts going downhill, sullying their own name in the process when the fans realise that what they hate in the new stuff (repeating formulas and characterisations in Miller's case) were always there in the old stuff, they just never noticed it until now. He's a hack writer who has written some great books.

This thread is done. Mladen wins.

 

[Super_Ludacris]

I think another problem with Frank is he still lives in a certain timespace when he writes. When he brokethrough in the early 80's his writing was a reflection of what he saw around him (Regan, 1980s New York) and it was reflected well and never really presented before in comics with that sorta writing style (Case in point TDK, Sin City and Daredevil) but he still seems to live in that era and so his new books feel out of touch, corny and sound like paraodies of himself (All-Star Batman anyone?)

 

[rigel7soldiers]

All-Star Batman is terrible. He has no idea how to treat certain characters (like all of them) and seems to be stuck in his trademark repetition mode (Except "Dick Grayson, age twelve" isn't as poignant as "I think of Barbara. The rest is easy.") And somehow he turned Batman into Nuke.

Sin City, I have steered completely clear from. Why don't you just tear my freaking heart out while you're at it, Frank?

His work on Daredevil is fantastic, I don't care who you are. DKR is kind of hit-or-miss (personally, I love it), but there is no question that he hit it on the head with his Daredevil run. Because unlike a lot of supervillain conspiracies, the Kingpin didn't go after Matt's loved ones. He just took away his identity and let him destroy himself.

 

[Sandman138]

I think another problem with Frank is he still lives in a certain timespace when he writes. When he brokethrough in the early 80's his writing was a reflection of what he saw around him (Regan, 1980s New York) and it was reflected well and never really presented before in comics with that sorta writing style (Case in point TDK, Sin City and Daredevil) but he still seems to live in that era and so his new books feel out of touch, corny and sound like paraodies of himself (All-Star Batman anyone?)

Exactly! DKR is political satire at its finest, but it is not 1986 anymore. His entire narrative is centered around a context that is woefully outdated.

 

[Mladen]

I think another problem with Frank is he still lives in a certain timespace when he writes. When he brokethrough in the early 80's his writing was a reflection of what he saw around him (Regan, 1980s New York) and it was reflected well and never really presented before in comics with that sorta writing style (Case in point TDK, Sin City and Daredevil) but he still seems to live in that era and so his new books feel out of touch, corny and sound like paraodies of himself (All-Star Batman anyone?)

Very good point.
What does that say about today's society if Miller's very paranoid work is back in vogue?
Makes me wonder what it is that keeps him from moving on... maybe he's just holding onto the lucrative niche of the geek fantasy? More likely he just finds it fun to write, and a lot of his books read like they're a part of his own escapist fantasy... Which makes the lady-slapping/sadism/homophobia in his work all the more disturbing (I'd prefer to think he's just pandering to what he thinks the market wants)....

So if he's writing for the 80s geek fantasy, but the geek fantasy is no longer sexy dames and big guns, what IS the geek fantasy these days? I'd hazard a guess its the Spiderman lifestyle/personality kicking ass and wisecracking and looking good while doing it...

This thread is done. Mladen wins.

Great! Next week we could break down the problems with Alan Moore, and then after that rip into Neil Gaiman (both deserve a bit of negative criticism to balance things out).

While I'm here, I remember reading a Frank Miller Daredevil trade years ago, the one which tells the story of his origins and his first meeting of Electra (he doesn't put the outfit on until the end of the book).... Does anybody remember the name of that particular trade? I'd like to track it down...

 

[Flash-er]

Are you religious at all?

I used to be, until I realized the reason the world's going to hell is because God needs to get laid.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I really have to read Miller's "Daredevil" stuff. It sounds like it's not nearly as cliche or lopsided as the other work. I'll look for it.

 

[Aristotle]

.He comes across as insecure, misogynistic, xenophobic, homophobic, and downright lazy and complacent.

And just plain damn well creepy. You seen that guy? Christ, I wouldn't let an eight-year-old child anywhere within ten universes of that guy.

I just saw 300 not that long ago... also saw the History channel's program on it. Sadly, I liked the History lesson better.

No, no, History CHANNEL. Not History lesson. The History Channel is to the discipline of history what KFC is to chicken.

Are you religious at all?

What are you, the designated Jehovah's Witness of the Hype? You gonna offer the guy a damn brochure or something? To see what you're all about?

What does that have to do with not liking 300 ?

Are you religious at all?

Next week we could break down the problems with Alan Moore, and then after that rip into Neil Gaiman (both deserve a bit of negative criticism to balance things out).

Moore needs a shave and an attitude adjustment, and Gaiman's only good work was Sandman. Done and done.