Miller is overrated.

[fifthfiend]

I really can't fathom this "Frank Miller is overrated" argument. I know that the majority of comics readers probably like the guy, but the majority of message board-posting comics fans obviously are super-pissed at the guy. I think this is probably because 75% of the message board dwellers are complete *****e bags.

There are some arguments from the thread that I'm too lazy to grab and quote but will try to provide a different point of view on.

He did do something good post-DKSA. Nobody mentions 300.

Someone said it took over 30 years for someone to better his Daredevil. You mean...20 years, right? Because he did that in the 80s. 80s-00s = 20 years.

If you can't find depth in DKR or DD: Born Again, I don't really know what happened to your reading comprehension.

Something else but I forgot.

I think 75% of comics readers are *****ebags.

And 300 was ass. Testosterone-worshipping, cripple-bashing ass.

 

[The Hero]

Not sure about Gaiman, but again, his participation would make the difference.

jag

Gaiman's been trying to get The High Cost Of Living done for a while. He wants to write and direct it, I think.

 

[The Hero]

And the reason his graphic novels are being adapted into movies line-per-line, shot-per-shot is because he has a very cinematic storytelling style, while writers like Gaiman and Moore are more literary. If I remember correctly, The Man Without Fear was originally his script for a Daredevil movie.

 

[jaydawg]

Miller doesn't even deserve to be overrated. The guy is basically Chris Claremont now, he rehashes his own work. His Batman stuff all sucks save for Year One. The fact that everyone wanted Batman to be like DKR instead of the Adams/ O'Neal version for decades amazes me. Whats even more amazing is that he still has Batman projects lined up at DC! I'm sure his next Al-Qaeda adventure will so badass.

Oh and his art looks like total ass. I used to think it was impossible to make women look worse than Alex Ross, but Miller as always, has to do the impossible. After all, I never knew all women were ****es and prostitutes before.

 

[The Hero]

Miller's art is a bit of an acquired taste, but you have to realize that he's going for the usual "make every panel a potential poster" look most artists do today. He's more interested in telling a story, in communicating the emotion and energy of what's going on then making everything prettyfull.

But yeah, from what I've seen his art in DKSA was pure ass.

 

[Darthphere]

I also can't stand people like Miller that constantly talk about how they hate supeheroes. Ok, stop writing them then.

 

[jaguarr]

Gaiman's been trying to get The High Cost Of Living done for a while. He wants to write and direct it, I think.

I'd love to see that. Don't know if he'll find a studio willing to hand him the directorial reins his first time out of the gate, though. Good to hear he's taking an active interest in it before someone else does, though.

jag

 

[Flash-er]

you listed, like, six things of his you said you read that you say you didn't care for, I think it's pretty clear you're not a fan of his style. Why ask for another suggestion?

I think the best thing to a toned down comic of his you'll find is The Man Without Fear, which I think you'll enjoy if you liked Year One

It's not about the violence being toned down, it's about the characters having some depth. most of them are violent for shock value. There's nothing to them. And in case some of you want to point out the one or two characters, i did say MOST. there are always exceptions. But even his new Batman is just plain violent. I'll give ronin and 300 a try.

And not jake, everyone I talked to were saying that they loved All star Batman, and i'd been saying it's bad since Issue one. The only reason people have dumped on it lately is because of how long it's been since the last issue and NOW they've been agreeing that it's crap.

And Jaydawg, the's pretty much what I was saying. thank you. The stuff he puts out is the same thing with different characters.

 

[Harlekin]

Everyone I've ever talked to thinks All-Star Bats is crap since the beginning, so...

 

[Flash-er]

Everyone I've ever talked to thinks All-Star Bats is crap since the beginning, so...

Really? Then I should move to where you are because the people around here just kept saying "he's just doing a different take in line with DKR. It's good, give it a shot." I gave it two issues and when he said "I'm the godd@mn Batman" I was out.

 

[Harlekin]

Well, you're already here, how awesome is that? I haven't found a positive ASB&R voice yet here.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

What pisses me off about Frank Miller is, yes he's a good writer, in fact a damn good one. Yet somehow this mother****er gets his comics made into movies that are exact replicas of his work. Now how the hell does somebody manage that? Just look at how hard its been for Alan Moore, and Neil Gaiman to get their works right on the screen. What is it about Frank Millers' writing that makes it so easy to get translated into film? Or is it just easier for our society to take a comic that treats women as objects, dudes as ridiculous badasses and the police as completely evil than it is for us to actually aproach something from a high intellectual level like Alan Moore might? Not that I don't like Miller, I love him, its just something I've been wondering about.

Like others mentioned, one reason is that Miller is now pretty much willing to work with Hollywood, whereas Moore pisses and moans about "eggy in a basket" and goes back to writing his latest porno comic.

Also, because Miller's stories are less complex and epic. The Hard Goodbye in Sin City was only just less than an hour on film. Whereas Watchmen and From Hell, if adapted panel for panel, would take hours upon hours. But, it does go both ways--would take a bit more than a half hour of film for Moore's The Killing Joke and it would probably take about 3 or 4 for Dark Knight Returns.

 

[MaskedManJRK]

Well, you're already here, how awesome is that? I haven't found a positive ASB&R voice yet here.

*raises hand*

Two reasons why:

1. Most of the people who hated it was because they believed it would be a "classic" story. Frankly, Miller can't or won't do "classic." Hell, when you think about it, DKSA is almost like classic Superfriends, so figure that one out. Frankly, those who actually believed that are...well, ******ed.

2. IT'S NOT DONE YET. I throughly believe from what Miller has said in interviews and hints from previous issues that Batman will be in a redemptive arc and straighten his ass out. Unfortunately, since there's been almost no issues out lately, it's pretty hard for most to see it.

By the way, both Miller and Lee are kinda responcible for the lateness--Miller for his other projects and movie deals, and Lee for operating Wildstorm, designing the DC MMORPG, and doing every odd cover for DC.

 

[fifthfiend]

I will say this much for Miller --

What pisses me off about Frank Miller is, yes he's a good writer, in fact a damn good one. Yet somehow this mother****er gets his comics made into movies that are exact replicas of his work. Now how the hell does somebody manage that?

-- He simply refused to give anyone the rights to make a movie of his work, up until a moviemaker came along who was willing to make a movie that was an exact replica of his work.

Well okay, exact except we didn't get to see Jessica Alba's nipples, which was plainly an injustice.

But no seriously, it was actually an impressively principled stand for him to take; I would imagine Miller could have taken any number of quick payouts in the, what, fifteen years between SC's comic run and its theatrical adaptation. Had Robert Rodriguez not come along there was no reason to expect a Sin City film would have ever been produced.

 

[The Hero]

Maybe if Moore had taken that kind of approach we could have gotten a Keanu-free Hellblazer.

 

[Kahoot]

But Mark Millar is overrated too.

The Ultimates
Wanted
Superman: Red Son

I loved them all, what I've read of Civil War I like. Millar is amazing, helps that he's Scottish too.

 

[souloffire]

Oh yeah, most people with sense praise him for his good stuff and ream him for his bad stuff. That's not overrated, is it?

Agreed. I didn't like DKSA and ASB&R so far is not his best work. Now his work on Daredevil, YO, DKR, Sin City, 300 and Ronin are some of the greatest comics ever published.

I think allot of the "Miller hate" comes from people who are using DKSA and ASB&R to judge his entire career. Like I said I don't care for those books, in fact he can write absolute crap for the rest of his life, it wont change the fact that his other work is some of the best ever produced is this medium.

 

[The Question]

Maybe if Moore had taken that kind of approach we could have gotten a Keanu-free Hellblazer.

Initially, Moore wanted to take that aproach. But all of his characters and books that have been made into films are owned by DC, not Moore. He's really got no say in regards to adaptations.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

Had Robert Rodriguez not come along there was no reason to expect a Sin City film would have ever been produced.

Thank God and yes, you're right. Everybody keeps babbling about how Frank Miller was willing to work with Hollywood and accept changes from the comic to the big screen when realistically, there were hardly any changes at all! Rodriguez hooked him up big time with a dream deal that most artists don't get or deserve. Miller wasn't Mr. Humble. He worked with a filmmaker who is known for not giving a crap about Hollywood. This is a perfect example of Miller's being over rated here. Everybody is talking him up and commending him for something that is completely false. His work was honored, not butchered. Of course he didn't complain.

As for Miller's work in comics... it takes balls to say it's overrated here on the Hype because you're guaranteed to be roasted alive. I do think Miller's work is very overrated. I enjoyed DKR but couldn't completely understand why the characters (namely Bats and Supes) were acting so one dimensional the entire time. Gritty or rugged dialogue doesn't make up for character development. What is the theme of the story exactly? What is there to think about? What is the POINT? It was so much of a testosterone fest that I just didn't understand why true fans of storytelling would worship it.

Do you get annoyed with how Superman is sometimes written like a one dimensional, overpowered goody two shoes? Me too. Still, why don't you get annoyed when Batman is a one dimensional, over powered, grumpy loner? Because it's considered "cool", "tough", or "bad ass", that's why. It's not better writing than the first example. It's testosterone worship and that appeals to the male audience big time. Still, it doesn't make it good or insightful writing. Like I said, I ENJOYED DKR because it was unique and a new way of viewing things.. but it lacked any real substance or narrative. Leonadis is part of a baby murdering, vanity obsessed society. He's not honorable. He's Hitler. Yet we rally behind him because he's so damn cool.

After reading "Kingdom Come" I remember sitting there questioning who has the right to make moral decisions. Anybody? World leaders? The point is, I was THINKING about something very real because the graphic novel had challenged me to think. After reading Miller's works (300, DKR, DKSA, Allstar BnR, Wolverine) I never have anything to ponder or think about after. Sure, not all writing should be a social commentary, but Miller's stuff has nothing at all to offer as far as storytelling themes go. So often, his characters are all the same. Over the top, huffing and puffing, one liner spewing lone wolfs who's inner thoughts are always the same about "being too old", "being alone", or "doing what you have to do". Lots of the time they are obsessed with a younger person who they take under their wing or protect. It's totally testosterone obsessed, empty writing. YES it's popular, for the same reason Wolverine is popular. Because the fans want to be him. They want to be the rugged hero who plays by his own rules and doesn't take any crap. However, if it's real storytelling you want then tell us WHY the character acts this way and better yet, show us characters who don't without making them pricks or sell outs.

Let's use "Kingdom Come" as an example again. Every character in the story is different, yet the writer doesn't make any of them out to be morons simply for having a different point of view. Magog tried the anti-hero way and realized it's downside. That alone is more than any Miller anti-hero has learned. Magog blames himself and seeks redemption. Superman wants a better world but doesn't know how far is too far to go with enforcing it. Batman wants to manipulate things from afar. Wonder Woman wants to force things with war. Robin joins Superman but believes he's being naive. Aquaman is arrogant and has no desire to become involved. Captain Marvel is brainwashed by Luthor, who wants to destroy all the heroes once and for all.

Now, let's see the Frank Miller version of Kingdom Come...
Magog knows his ways of taking the law into his own hands have a downside but that's just the way things are and he's okay with it. He'll never change, he's too old to change, and dammit, these dirty streets are all he knows. Superman is tired of being "the good guy". He has abandoned his "never kill" attitude and has no problem taking the law into his own hands. Batman has realized that it's just plain time to start killing and that not to kill your enemies is unrealistic. He's been up and down these dirty streets and there ain't no sunshine down here. It's rats and broken windows and rape and sirens blaring on top of cop cars. The cops could care less as they spend their time doing drugs with ****es. Wonder Woman is the head prostitute and Batman is her number one customer. Both have no problem killing people who cross them. Captain Marvel is dead. He overdosed at the age of 15, a fine example of how this damn world has gone to Hell and these dark and dirty streets are home only to crime and corruption. Aquaman has abandoned the seas and become a cage fighter. He uses his hook to finish off the enemies and spends his prize money at the ****e house, where he competes with Batman for Wonder Woman's affection. He kills the hookers who don't satisfy him. Robin has abandoned his superhero work and stuck to his "never kill" code. He's running for President and he claims to really want to make the world a better place. He's a lying, political sell out and he thinks he's better than everybody else. He's not a real man because he tries to talk instead of fight. He's a hack and a weakling... also, he's the enemy of the story... the high ranking authority who is challenging or persecuting our anti-heroes with his petty beliefs.

Man this story sounds BAD ASS. Too bad it's ******ed. Quality storytelling is never guaranteed to sell. POPULAR storytelling will always sell, and Miller knows exactly how to design something that's popular. Whenever he tries to actually make something unique and original he usually fails. I have yet to read "Batman: Year One" or his Daredevil stories, but I'm told they are much better than his other work and I'm dying to check them out, especially Batman.

 

[ibsisomis]

I don't feel that Miller is overrated either. I love that style of writting though. Aparently you don't man, and that's cool. If don't like it, you just probably won't like much that he does write. It's cool though that's why we have boards for us to have our own opinion. See I hate superman, but that's just my opinion.

 

[Max J Power]

I won't pretend that Miller has the deepest comics ever, but I don't read read a Miller book expecting an Alan Moore. I like his work for its plotting, pacing, dialogue, and art. He's not trying to make grand statements about society or superheroes or whatever else with his books. He wants to make cool action comics and he's great at it.

I'm not surprised Robert Rodriguez wanted to make Sin City, as he and Miller are kind of similar.

 

[The Hero]

Leonadis is part of a baby murdering, vanity obsessed society. He's not honorable. He's Hitler. Yet we rally behind him because he's so damn cool.

I seriously doubt that Miller condones the actions of ancient Sparta. I imagine he just thought "Gee, the battle of Thermopylae would make a great book, but it might be a little easier to swallow if the Spartans where the good guys".

Though I doubt he said "gee".

 

[Not Jake]

it takes balls to say it's overrated here on the Hype because you're guaranteed to be roasted alive.

Mmmmmmpretty sure that there are more vocal anti-Miller posters than pro-Miller ones on these comic boards.

 

[Sandman138]

I don't know what to think about Miller. I mean, I love Ronin, and DKR, and Year One, and what he did with DD is just amazing. Hell, I even like 300 at times. But you have to admit that the guy has a prevailing theme in all his work, and it's not one that I particularly like. He's misogynistic, his male protagonist is almost always this one note "man's man", and his antagonists are always physically ugly. Honestly every story in Sin City is basically the same story played over and over again. I'm actually a HUGE fan of his art, but his writing bothers me and I often feel uncomfortable that I like any of it because it gets beyond a point that I can rationalize and honestly think Miller isn't getting some kind of sadistic glee out of crafting this continuing chauvinist fantasy.

 

[larryfilmmaker]

I don't know what to think about Miller. I mean, I love Ronin, and DKR, and Year One, and what he did with DD is just amazing. Hell, I even like 300 at times. But you have to admit that the guy has a prevailing theme in all his work, and it's not one that I particularly like. He's misogynistic, his male protagonist is almost always this one note "man's man", and his antagonists are always physically ugly. Honestly every story in Sin City is basically the same story played over and over again. I'm actually a HUGE fan of his art, but his writing bothers me and I often feel uncomfortable that I like any of it because it gets beyond a point that I can rationalize and honestly think Miller isn't getting some kind of sadistic glee out of crafting this continuing chauvinist fantasy.

I think you're right.