More Doom and Gloom from Alan Moore

[Kitsune]

"Who watches the Watchmen?"

"The TINY WATCHMEN"

"♫Watchmen Babies make your dreams come true ♫"

 

[Mystirious]

"♫Watchmen Babies make your dreams come true ♫"

I would buy that

 

[WompuM]

http://www.wompnation.com/toons79.html

 

[Mystirious]

http://www.wompnation.com/toons79.html

 

[Tron Bonne]

The idea that Moore is humble in anyway it utterly incorrect. He's always in indie-press over here ranting on about the death of comic books as a medium and that he thinks the music, art and poetry he does is much more symbolic and meaningful to a world.

Where are you getting that? I've never seen him say anything like that. He's always shown a great amount of respect for the comic medium. If this were true, I don't see how he would have ever written something like Promethea or Lost Girls.

Which brings me to my disagreement with your "Moore's humble about his work" comments. The criticism Moore is recieving for the most part isn't about his opposition to the exploitation of Watchmen, but rather his claim that not a single comic in 25 years has managed to touch the brilliance of Watchmen, and that the comics industry is utterly devoid of "top-flight, middle-flight or even bottom-flight talent" since he left.

But he doesn't really say that here, though, does he? He said that there's been nothing that's had the kind of impact that Watchmen has had in that time. And, as far as I can tell, he's right. Personal opinions aside, there's been plenty of well known and well credited works in that time, but none had nearly the amount of impact Watchmen has on the whole. About the only one you could make an argument for is DKR, but even that would be a stretch I think. Not to mention I don't think he's saying, or has ever really said, that Watchmen was some kind of Promethean fire of brilliance anyway. If so, kind of strange that he only refers to it as a 'pretty good piece of art' in this interview, and has expressed a lot of regret for the things that happened because of it.

 

[Kitsune]

I would buy that

See if they existed they would make your dreams come true.

 

[The BatDude]

It's funny how everybody is saying Moore and Morrison are full of themselves and they kinda are, but then again all magicians are. Magic gives you an ego

 

[Tron Bonne]

Lol, I don't know about, but I've always found a lot of artists in general to have some type of ego.

 

[yenaled]

It's funny how everybody is saying Moore and Morrison are full of themselves and they kinda are, but then again all magicians are. Magic gives you an ego

The actual reason they hate is each is because they have different views on magic.

Where are you getting that? I've never seen him say anything like that. He's always shown a great amount of respect for the comic medium. If this were true, I don't see how he would have ever written something like Promethea or Lost Girls.

I wish I could find it but it was in a zine I read in the queue of the comic shop talking about his Unearthing LP. The comic book guys were really raging against it as he was basically continuously slagging off the industry that made him. We're talking this year so it's long after Promethea and Lost Girls.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I wish I could find it but it was in a zine I read in the queue of the comic shop talking about his Unearthing LP. The comic book guys were really raging against it as he was basically continuously slagging off the industry that made him. We're talking this year so it's long after Promethea and Lost Girls.

Oh, well, yeah, the industry, that doesn't surprise me. Even in this interview he basically says 'F'that noise, foo'', but I've seen never anything were he's said that his work in the medium, or that the medium, is somehow less meaningful or useful or something than the other things you mentioned. I really don't think I've ever heard him say something of that kind of disrespect to the comic medium itself.

 

[The BatDude]

The actual reason they hate is each is because they have different views on magic.

Totally man, not only magic but pretty much in everything especially comics. I was just saying it seems to me that magic gives you an ego.

I kinda think Morrison is a bit jealous of Moore cause Moore like in a couple of years surpassed Morrison in terms of magic. Morrison was doing it since what his late teens? Moore started during his mid-life crisis... and btw Moore got a huge library of old arcane books. It's ironic though why these two hate each other. Without Moore's work in Swamp thing DC won't had the British Invasion that got Morrison his stint in Animal Man.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Totally man, not only magic but pretty much in everything especially comics. I was just saying it seems to me that magic gives you an ego.

I kinda think Morrison is a bit jealous of Moore cause Moore like in a couple of years surpassed Morrison in terms of magic. Morrison was doing it since what his late teens? Moore started during his mid-life crisis... and btw Moore got a huge library of old arcane books. It's ironic though why these two hate each other. Without Moore's work in Swamp thing DC won't had the British Invasion that got Morrison his stint in Animal Man.

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting a lot of this stuff about the magic? I don't necessarily disbelieve you or anything, but I'd like to read up on it myself.

 

[The BatDude]

Just out of curiosity, where are you getting a lot of this stuff about the magic? I don't necessarily disbelieve you or anything, but I'd like to read up on it myself.

ummm... If I remember correctly there's a couple of threads about Morrison and Moore over at Barbelith. And as far the magic think just look up aleister crowley, manly p hall, robert anton wilson, carl jung when he got in alchemy and morrison and moore talk lot about in their interviews.

Arthur Magazine did some interviews with these two
grant morrison
alan moore

watch the mindscape of alan moore he talks about his views on magic, mostly kabbalah

 

[Tron Bonne]

Very interesting, thanks.

 

[The BatDude]

Here's a summary of his views on magic, he even says he's a vain person lawl

alan moore and magic
moore on crowley
funny interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4il1-2wBPk

Here's a treat Moore's paintings

of his fake god, Glykon

and the demon he talked to, Asmodeus

 

[CrimsonMist]

I'm going to have to disagree on this post on a few levels.

First, not everyone who disagrees with Moore's views automatically dismisses his work. Yes, admittedly, some do, but most responses I've read start along the lines of "Moore is a genius, he's written some of the greatest comics of all time, but...", then proceed to disagree or criticise his recent attitude and behaviour. I've commented that a lot of his more recent work feels a bit cold and distant, or a bit heavy-handed in presenting itself as The Way Comics Should Be, but his earlier work remains brilliant, and I won't deny that just because I disagree with some of his views.

Which brings me to my disagreement with your "Moore's humble about his work" comments. The criticism Moore is recieving for the most part isn't about his opposition to the exploitation of Watchmen, but rather his claim that not a single comic in 25 years has managed to touch the brilliance of Watchmen, and that the comics industry is utterly devoid of "top-flight, middle-flight or even bottom-flight talent" since he left.

Well, for starters, I never said "everyone". But the "Overrated Comics thread" has alot of Anti-Moore stuff in it, calling Watchmen overrated, Tom Strong sucks, V For Vendetta was boring. I could care less if someone criticizes the man's attitude

As for his humbleness towards his work, he is. Tron Bonne pretty much summed up what I was going to say. But he never goes out of his way to say how great he is. He usually praises the hell out of his artists. And even with that, he gets **** from people for criticizing his own work!

Moore has stated several times of his dissatisfaction over The Killing Joke and people call him an arrogant pretentious loon. Why, exactly? Tim Burton doesn't really like BATMAN. Does that make him a loon? It just seems ridiculous to me. He's an artist. He can criticize himself all he wants. All artists do that.

 

[fifthfiend]

I was mostly talking about how Morrison really talks down to the fans. On more than one occasion I've read him basically saying 'screw the fans' in some form or another.

This is why fans love Morrison and hate Moore. Morrison ****s all over the fans, which lets the fans pretend that he means all those OTHER fans aside from THEMSELVES, the only special snowflake who can appreciate Grant's poorly paced, wooden-dialogued genius. Whereas Moore ****s all over the creators, which makes fans go wait if the creators are just a bunch of ordinary *******s who people can go around criticizing, that makes my adulation of them ridiculous, and probably stupid! HOW DARE HE

It's a lot like being Catholic.

 

[Keyser Soze]

I don't think Morrison comes across as arrogant, and in fact seems pretty genial in any interviews with him I've seen or read, and he was very down-to-earth and approachable when I met him at Comic-Con. I don't get where this "Morrison says screw the fans!" thing comes from, as any criticisms he's made haven't been blanket attacks on all readers and fans, but rather criticisms of this incredibly frustrating mindset of people doing a crap in their pants because they can't take a story and neatly categorise it and precisely place it in this exact chronology and align it with that story from 1983, and because they might actually have to think and engage with an actual creatively-ambitous story rather than simply an exercise in dutiful continuity-advancement that amounts to a Wikipedia article with images.

It's hardly unusual for comic creators of all kinds to comment on the negativity of internet fanboys, as we are one of the most notoriously curmudgeony and impossible-to-please fanbases in the world. One of my favorite examples of this is Mark Waid, who refers to the internet as the Zone-O-Phone, the Zone-O-Phone being the window into the Phantom Zone that Superman would look into and get constant, screaming abuse from a horde of ghouls. Whoever you are in the comics industry, it seems like there's someone out there who hates you passionately and wishes harm upon you. It's understandable that people might want to comment on that.

But back on topic, I don't think Morrison is arrogant. And for that matter, I don't think Moore is arrogant either. While his words seem very stern in print, in video interviews he comes across as a lot more laid-back. I don't think it's arrogance that drives rants like this. But all the same, I think he's off-base in some of what he says, in that he is seriously selling short his fellow comic creators in dismissing a quarter-century of work.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

I've found it's better to just ignore what creators say and appreciate their work in the comics. Appreciating the work and appreciating people as human beings are entirely different things, the latter of which only proves to be more difficult over time for me.

 

[Mystirious]

See if they existed they would make your dreams come true.

Here's a summary of his views on magic, he even says he's a vain person lawl

alan moore and magic
moore on crowley
funny interview http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c4il1-2wBPk

Here's a treat Moore's paintings

of his fake god, Glykon

and the demon he talked to, Asmodeus

Very interesting links Batdude

 

[Tron Bonne]

I don't think Morrison comes across as arrogant, and in fact seems pretty genial in any interviews with him I've seen or read, and he was very down-to-earth and approachable when I met him at Comic-Con. I don't get where this "Morrison says screw the fans!" thing comes from, as any criticisms he's made haven't been blanket attacks on all readers and fans, but rather criticisms of this incredibly frustrating mindset of people doing a crap in their pants because they can't take a story and neatly categorise it and precisely place it in this exact chronology and align it with that story from 1983, and because they might actually have to think and engage with an actual creatively-ambitous story rather than simply an exercise in dutiful continuity-advancement that amounts to a Wikipedia article with images.

It's hardly unusual for comic creators of all kinds to comment on the negativity of internet fanboys, as we are one of the most notoriously curmudgeony and impossible-to-please fanbases in the world. One of my favorite examples of this is Mark Waid, who refers to the internet as the Zone-O-Phone, the Zone-O-Phone being the window into the Phantom Zone that Superman would look into and get constant, screaming abuse from a horde of ghouls. Whoever you are in the comics industry, it seems like there's someone out there who hates you passionately and wishes harm upon you. It's understandable that people might want to comment on that.

But back on topic, I don't think Morrison is arrogant. And for that matter, I don't think Moore is arrogant either. While his words seem very stern in print, in video interviews he comes across as a lot more laid-back. I don't think it's arrogance that drives rants like this. But all the same, I think he's off-base in some of what he says, in that he is seriously selling short his fellow comic creators in dismissing a quarter-century of work.

I love to work in the comics medium -- I really do -- and I've realised that a total contempt for the intelligence of the audience is the key to success. You know that Doom Force thing I did recently for D.C.? -- the pisstake of X-Force, right? Well, eighty percent of the people who sent letters of comment in on the story actually took the thing seriously! They didn't see the joke! It's horrific. Tom Peyer phoned me up and read page after page of these insane letters. That was the turning point. That is the moment that I became a super-villain

I guess you could say he's being tongue-in-cheek here, but I think there's seriousness, too. There's also a quote I'm 99% certain is out there about New X-Men where he essentially says 'old fans' of franchises don't matter, or something to that degree. I'm fairly sure there's more, too, but I don't care that much to really research it in full

Also, I thought a lot of the things he said about The Matrix and it's supposed ripping off of his The Invisibles came off very arrogant and pretentious. I suppose if he knows people who worked on the movie like he says, I can maybe understand, but The Matrix really didn't take anything from his comic anymore than all the other stuff Morrison borrowed from other works.

I will say, I think Morrison does present himself less abrasive about these things. Moore doesn't hold back his guns at all.

I've found it's better to just ignore what creators say and appreciate their work in the comics. Appreciating the work and appreciating people as human beings are entirely different things, the latter of which only proves to be more difficult over time for me.

Yeah, pretty much the way you have to do it, otherwise you're not going to like anything.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, Morrison is pretty much right. Plenty of readers take things solely on a surface level. It's sad, but there aren't all that many critical readers in any kind of pop fiction environment like the one comics occupy.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, of course, he's right, just like Moore is right that the corporate levels are just a bunch of money grubbing suns o' *****es who just want to suck all the money out of writers and creators, then throw them away like cheap garbage when they're drained all the ideas and creativity out of them. That's not the point

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Well, I mean, he did say it's only "80%" of the audience. That's probably a bit generous on his part.

 

[Mr. Earle]

What a dick... Really, when was the last time Moore wrote anything great? Was it anytime in the last 10 years? I dont think so.