MOTP or TDK?

[samsnee]

So which is the better Batman film, Mask of the Phantasm or The Dark Knight? I think TDK is probably the best live action Batman will most likely ever get, but MotP is the best Batman movie.

There are a lot of similarities between the two: Bruce wanting to have a normal life with the woman he loves, Joker and the mob working together, Batman having an uneasy relationship with the cops, etc.

But I think it's easier to create iconic Batman moments in animation than in live action. And while I could watch MotP over and over, I think the sonar fight and ferry boat sequence in TDK brought it down.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

I think TDK is probably the best live action Batman will most likely ever get, but MotP is the best Batman movie.

You about summed that up.

Mask of the Phantasm is one of those rare animated films that does justice to a previously live-action franchise (B'89, for example, was out before MOTP, and also BR I believe). We have an emotional journey that is romantic in every sense: the world is nihilistic, but the characters adhere to their beliefs in it being romantic, so to speak. And I'm not talking about just love. Batman puts on his suit and rides out into the night when he can't assimilate into "reality"... the reality that men of his age and standing settle down with a loved one, have children, deal with the evils of the world without taking direct action... but he has to take the opposite course. The romantic course of a hero who takes it upon himself to be the theatrical symbol of justice. He loses his first love, but gains his purpose in life.

The Joker in this movie is probably the greatest you'll get in the animated universe. He's increasingly violent in MOTP, even killing a sick old mob man and using his body as a trap for the Phantasm. "Boom" anyone? And goes onto make a sick joke about it over the recording device. That scene can give just about anyone chills.

The abandoned amusement park is the perfect representation of what happened to Batman himself, if you think about it. Here you have this run-down spot that was once a place of joy. Before his parents were killed, it would be like the amusement park while it was still in business. And up until the end, that's what Bruce is still clinging onto: the chance of rewiring his life and drawing Andrea back so he can be HAPPY. That dream is permanently destroyed along with the remains of that place.

"Do you want to be alone?"

"I am."

So is Batman. The inner child he fought to keep alive so long, is finally dead due to unfortunate circumstances. MOTP is an action-packed tragedy that delivers on all levels. It's my favorite Batman film period.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

 

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I completely agree... I need The Dark Knight to wear and tear on my mind for a while before I make any final judgments.

But this movie is Batman... through and through! - It's simply the best Batman movie period. I still feel that till this day, Paul Dini and Bruce Timm are the only people to truly nail batman in every way in an outside medium.

 

[the_scream]

I like MOTP a lot. Some of the reasons I love Batman Begins is because it reminds me of that film. For instance, the shot of Batman in the rain, peering out through the binoculars. Similar in BB when Batman is hanging off the side of the building in the rain, using binoculars spying on the Scarecrow.

For me, it is hard to compare both films. One is animated and can, therefore, capture the comic book elements of Batman. But TDK is the better film IMHO. I was just watching that scene with the Joker and the mob bosses. There is something so unsettling about the Joker in that scene. He's just terrifying. That's how I feel about TDK. I really get a sense something special is happening in that film where everything just works. MOTP is a great film and the closest Batman interpretation we'll probably ever get. But I don't feel like it has the same edge or entertainment value as TDK.

 

[Dr Strange]

I completely adore Mask of the Phantasm and The Dark Knight They both are truly Brilliant, i think we will never get a better animated batman film Than Mask of the Phantasm & i doubt we will get a better live action Batman than the Dark Knight.
I believe that The Dark Knight is a better experience as a whole but there is a unique quality to Mask of the Phantasm. I am going to say that I prefer The Dark Knight but not by much, both are truly great adaptations of a classic character.

 

[Bat-Mite]

I just can't decide which I like more between the two as of right now, and don't know if I'll ever be able to. They're both such iconic batfilms.

 

[darkseid26]

MOTP is the best animated bat film
and
TDK is best live action (imo)

i like 'em both and i'd watch ether one and i won't get bored

 

[ReTrO JuNkIe 42]

Sorry, i cant vote, it would be like askin which one of my kids i loved more if i had kids that is

 

[TruerToTheCore]

MOTP has the better story, but TDK is more intense.

 

[The Joker]

Mask of the Phantasm had a stronger female lead, better Bruce Wayne scenes, and more emotion.

But TDK did have more intensity, excitement, and the Joker was much more compelling and twisted. Plus, we had Harvey Dent/Two Face's story.

Both terrific movies for different reasons. But I'd go with TDK.

 

[DACrowe]

Wouldn't Batman Begins be the better comparison as they both deal with how and why Batman became Batman?

I any rate I like Mask of the Phantasm, but I think Return of the Joker is the best of the animated Batman films and prefer watching the Burton and Nolan movies over that...so The Dark Knight pretty handily. I like Mask of the Phantasm, but I think the depth of TAS is why it is so great, this movie was entertaining but I prefer Nolan and Burton's movies over it.

 

[samsnee]

Wouldn't Batman Begins be the better comparison as they both deal with how and why Batman became Batman?

I look at it more as a comparison of two quintessential Batman films that are fan favorites. As much as fans love BB, they love TDK.

As iconic as some shots in TDK were, there are two in MotP that I think trumps any of them. The first is the first time he dones the cape and cowl, and you just see Alfred's reaction: "My God..." The second is the last shot of the film. Batman, brooding and alone. And then the signal comes, and even though he has every right not to, he still takes off into the night on a mission that will never really end.

 

[Yurka]

I was wondering when this thread would be created.
I'm gonna have to let TDK grow on me to see which I like better. MOTP was always the greatest Batman film, IMO, until TDK came out. At this point I would say they're tied, with a very strong chance of TDK being victorious in the coming months.

 

[Two-Face]

I love both movies but The Dark Knight is just someyhing else and it's second time a live action Bat-movie had Batman spirits.

 

[Microchip]

Hmm, TDK just felt more epic, I guess being a live-action movie, while MOTP felt like a good episode of the Batman cartoon, except longer. It was really good, but I don't think it is in the same category as TDK, just because it feels like a different experience. I'd go with TDK for sure though.

MOTP deserves to be played more on TV. It got ONE airing during the run up to TDK, while Burton's stuff and BnR and Forever got played dozens of times each.

 

[MrQuinn]

damn.

I haven't seen Mask of the Phantasm yet.
and I own it.

I didn't know it was supposed to this phenomenal. I'll have to dig it out of my storage and watch it pronto.


I loved that animated series anyways.

 

[November Rain]

Mask of the phantasm kicks the dark knights ass through and through.

Bruce wayne's drive to be batman was to some extent a force of nature and andrea comes along, his one true hope for happiness. That scene where he's talking to his parents and goes 'I never planned on being happy' is probably the greatest line in animation.

That second pause you get when bruce dons the cape for the first time and alfred is terryfied of what his young master bruce has turned into is THE MOST POWERFUL BATMAN SCENE EVER...

The fact that andrea had effectively turned into what bruce could have and he saw saving her as a manner of saving himself and he lost her twice was a very bitter pill to take, Especially at the hands of the joker who ended up ruining tim's life as well in foresight.

The plot, pacing, twist, movie flashbacks and actual main story with the mob connections and the joker's interactions are pretty much flawless. Nothing beats the joker hitting andrea with the salami instead of the knife, or the way he falls to his knees laughing while the whole place goes up in smoke, classic joker...

the dark knight fails to really get bruce's relationship with batman or with exactly how dangerous the joker is (it feels like he's underestimated a lot). The joker himself was probably a lil bit too sane for me with a direct method to his madness and he enjoyed and saw the need for anarchy but didn't get a true kick out of what he was doing, it was all one careful plan to bring down a city. It works in nolan's world but perhaps there was too much method in his madness for my liking. Not unhinged enough...

 

[Dark Guardian]

Mask of the phantasm kicks the dark knights ass through and through.

Bruce wayne's drive to be batman was to some extent a force of nature and andrea comes along, his one true hope for happiness. That scene where he's talking to his parents and goes 'I never planned on being happy' is probably the greatest line in animation.

That second pause you get when bruce dons the cape for the first time and alfred is terryfied of what his young master bruce has turned into is THE MOST POWERFUL BATMAN SCENE EVER...

The fact that andrea had effectively turned into what bruce could have and he saw saving her as a manner of saving himself and he lost her twice was a very bitter pill to take, Especially at the hands of the joker who ended up ruining tim's life as well in foresight.

The plot, pacing, twist, movie flashbacks and actual main story with the mob connections and the joker's interactions are pretty much flawless. Nothing beats the joker hitting andrea with the salami instead of the knife, or the way he falls to his knees laughing while the whole place goes up in smoke, classic joker...

the dark knight fails to really get bruce's relationship with batman or with exactly how dangerous the joker is (it feels like he's underestimated a lot). The joker himself was probably a lil bit too sane for me with a direct method to his madness and he enjoyed and saw the need for anarchy but didn't get a true kick out of what he was doing, it was all one careful plan to bring down a city. It works in nolan's world but perhaps there was too much method in his madness for my liking. Not unhinged enough...

I agree completely. I love TDK, but honestly, I don't know why anyone's even having this conversation. For all TDK's intensity, it never gets as deep into the Batman world as Mask of the Phantasm. There is so much to MOTP, so much emotion, that even though TDK tries real hard, it just can't come close to the thought put into Mask of the Phantasm.
It will always be The Batman movie for me.

 

[samsnee]

damn.

I haven't seen Mask of the Phantasm yet.
and I own it.

I didn't know it was supposed to this phenomenal. I'll have to dig it out of my storage and watch it pronto.


I loved that animated series anyways.

That's so hard to believe that anyone who considers themselves a hardcore fan of Batman has never seen this movie. I'm not saying you're not a true fan, but would be interested to hear what you think of it.

And come on, MotP has TIA CARRERRE singing over the end credits. You can't beat that.

 

[UltimateJustin]

TDK is a great movie. Its a great Batman movie and a crime drama masterpiece. MOTP is the greatest Batman movie there will ever be, and to me is an even better look at his origin and while less complicated, a more touching and depressing story of Bruce's descent into understanding what it means to be Batman.

I can easily see how you could go either way, but while I have no problems with TDK, I also have almost no strong emotional connection with the characters. TDK is a realistic take on the character, a provocative look at morality and a compelling crime drama, but MOTP is the fantastic and engaging badass Batman story that is in the true spirit of Batman.

Also, while Hans Zimmer and JNH's score is memorable and instrumental in helping move along the incredible pace of the story in TDK, Shirley Walker's score in Phantasm is the quintessential Batman music ever created to me. How can the Dark Knight NOT have a operatic choir singing in latin?

 

[UltimateJustin]

Mask of the phantasm kicks the dark knights ass through and through.

Bruce wayne's drive to be batman was to some extent a force of nature and andrea comes along, his one true hope for happiness. That scene where he's talking to his parents and goes 'I never planned on being happy' is probably the greatest line in animation.

That second pause you get when bruce dons the cape for the first time and alfred is terryfied of what his young master bruce has turned into is THE MOST POWERFUL BATMAN SCENE EVER...

The fact that andrea had effectively turned into what bruce could have and he saw saving her as a manner of saving himself and he lost her twice was a very bitter pill to take, Especially at the hands of the joker who ended up ruining tim's life as well in foresight.

The plot, pacing, twist, movie flashbacks and actual main story with the mob connections and the joker's interactions are pretty much flawless. Nothing beats the joker hitting andrea with the salami instead of the knife, or the way he falls to his knees laughing while the whole place goes up in smoke, classic joker...

the dark knight fails to really get bruce's relationship with batman or with exactly how dangerous the joker is (it feels like he's underestimated a lot). The joker himself was probably a lil bit too sane for me with a direct method to his madness and he enjoyed and saw the need for anarchy but didn't get a true kick out of what he was doing, it was all one careful plan to bring down a city. It works in nolan's world but perhaps there was too much method in his madness for my liking. Not unhinged enough...

Badass post.. One other thing.

LONG before TDK ever came out I have said there are about two or three on-screen romances that I took seriously. Romeo and Juliet, Snake and Meryl, and Bruce and Andrea. Bruce and Rachel in BB/TDK is not a terrible/grating a relationship as Anakin and Padme, but their chemistry and believability is pretty weak. To truly have TDK take the effect it aims for, I had to kind of go, "eh, all right, he loves her, I'LL PLAY ALONG." I know they never were in an actual relationship in the Nolan movies, and I like what they did with the character in both films and understand her necessity, but the Rachel character has never been taken seriously and has been considered the weakest link of the movies to many fans. Praise and love TDK all you want, but Rachel never came off without a hitch the way she should have, she stuck out in both movies and never really seemed right. That is a flaw that MOTP doesn't have.

 

[Odin's Lapdog]

I've always felt like rachel was more of bruce's motivation to find himself and discover what needed to be done rather than some sort of true love interest.

actually if you break it down, bruce wayne comes along kinda like spike in buffy. Buffy shows spike the error of his ways and spike doesn't become good for the sake of it, rather to ultimately showcase to a love one that he can be the man that she wants but it ultimately turns out there is no real emotion there and she will always not accept him and ultimately move on with other romances.

I felt bruce was looking for an apraisal for getting his life back with rachel and it still continued in the dark knight, he was effectively ready to let bats go to get along with her, bats was a means to an end (in some cases) but the end never comes so he's stuck with her.

Andrea was bruce's only true way out, she was his complete lifeline and she left him hanging. WHen she comes back he goes the extra distance and she leaves him hanging again. She will forever be the only woman to understand what it's like to have your life driven by revenge and in my eyes is the only woman that could save bruce wayne from the bat.

The funny thing is that bruce does save her because she never kills the joker.

 

[Kevin Roegele]

That's so hard to believe that anyone who considers themselves a hardcore fan of Batman has never seen this movie. I'm not saying you're not a true fan, but would be interested to hear what you think of it.

And come on, MotP has TIA CARRERRE singing over the end credits. You can't beat that.

I agree. Kill the unbeliever-!

 

[UltimateJustin]

The funny thing is that bruce does save her because she never kills the joker.

As the movie itself goes she does kill the Joker. At the very least she makes the decision to. I like TNBA, Beyond and JLU, but I consider BTAS-MotP its own thing, and BTAS-Beyond/the entire DCAU, another.

Just like if you only like Spiderman and Spiderman 2 and hate SM3, you can consider that in the first two films Sandman is not Uncle Ben's killer. In SM3 and everything that may come after it, you can't do that. Considering MotP and its place in the DCAU as a whole, Joker survived.

You can still watch MotP and consider that Andrea does kill the Joker, since that movie entirely implies that she does. I do, and I can bench press like a million pounds.