National Defense Authorization Act of 2012: A Call To Action

[Crazy Quilt]

This law is to me, sounds like it will be very prone to slip ups. The first time they go after an innocent American lawsuits will come out of it.

I'm still failing to see how that will be possible.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I'm failing to see how this country will end up exactly like Nazi Germany.

It's a simple as that. I believe that we, the people, will not allow this law to stay passed. We will band together and universally fight this law. I believe in us that much. Even with media telling us different things, we won't be easily swayed like Nazi Germany.

 

[mikey1974]

me too Crazy Quilt. i mean,basically,they'll grab someone - or a group of people - and make them "go away" ....as will anyone around them who tries to make any trouble...

 

[mikey1974]

I'm failing to see how this country will end up exactly like Nazi Germany.

It's a simple as that. I believe that we, the people, will not allow this law to stay passed. We will band together and universally fight this law. I believe in us that much. Even with media telling us different things, we won't be easily swayed like Nazi Germany.

the problem is,if enough people start disappearing / dying in the name of "National Safety" , how long til even those who are willing to fight against it get scared off?

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

And if those people are disappearing/dying without a legitimate reason (and once things come to light like they seem to be), lawsuits starts coming to play. I don't see this law lasting much longer.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

I'm failing to see how this country will end up exactly like Nazi Germany.

It's a simple as that. I believe that we, the people, will not allow this law to stay passed. We will band together and universally fight this law. I believe in us that much. Even with media telling us different things, we won't be easily swayed like Nazi Germany.

*sigh*

It's this type of belief that makes things more likely to go that route, IMO.^

Nothing is more dangerous to freedom than an "it can't happen here" attitude.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Is that any different or worse than saying that "This country will fall to Nazism"?

We're nowhere near as desperate as Nazi Germany was, nor are we falling apart like Nazi Germany was. Sure, thing aren't going well, but it's nowhere near the struggles of Nazi Germany.

We have a system of checks and balances that make sure things like this never happen.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

And if those people are disappearing/dying without a legitimate reason (and once things come to light like they seem to be), lawsuits starts coming to play. I don't see this law lasting much longer.

That's just not how it works.

You need to learn a little bit of history. Rather than Nazi Germany(where things were more blatant), I suggest you read up on the history of East Germany or perhaps Chile under Pinochet.

You can't challenge in court a law which by it's very nature is secretive and not open to review in it's execution. You're failing to understand that.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

Is that any different or worse than saying that "This country will fall to Nazism"?

The comparison to Nazi Germany is obviously not ideology. The comparison is being made because of the passage of legislation to 'legalize' the violation of civil liberties.

Is reading comprehension really this poor now days?

 

[Marvolo]

*sigh*

It's this type of belief that makes things more likely to go that route, IMO.^

Nothing is more dangerous to freedom than an "it can't happen here" attitude.

Its not that a police state couldn't happen but a nazi type party would not happen. They would never gain support. We aren't 1920 and 1930 Germany and we are not like the people of Germany during that time. Even if we managed to vote a psycho into office like hitler our government is much more stable than Germanys was when hitler came into power. Im not tslking economy, but constitution and setup of our government. Also, hitler offered to take back germanys pride and power and strengthen the weakened military which gained him support of his military. Our pride isnt that weakened and our military is still very powerful. Also good luck turning our generals and troops on their own people. Without a military the person would be weak. The person would have way more trouble taking complete control than hitler did.

At this time the chances of us turning into nazi Germany is slim to none. In 50-100 years it may be a different story.

Right now we are repeating the Roman Empire's mistakes not germanys and the path we are on will lead to a similar fate as the roman empires if we don't do something.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

Its not that a police state couldn't happen but a nazi type party would not happen. They would never gain support. We aren't 1920 and 1930 Germany and we are not like the people of Germany during that time. Even if we managed to vote a psycho into office like hitler our government is much more stable than Germanys was when hitler came into power. Im not tslking economy, but constitution and setup of our government. Also, hitler offered to take back germanys pride and power and strengthen the weakened military which gained him support of his military. Our pride isnt that weakened and our military is still very powerful. Also good luck turning our generals and troops on their own people. Without a military the person would be weak. The person would have way more trouble taking complete control than hitler did.

At this time the chances of us turning into nazi Germany is slim to none. In 50-100 years it may be a different story.

No one ever said a Nazi type party was going to take over. Please learn to read.

 

[Marvolo]

No one ever said a Nazi type party was going to take over. Please learn to read.

Uh a few posts have said we are going to end up like nazi Germany. It takes a nazi style party to end up like nazi Germany. Don't be a smartass.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

I did a blog about this on my YouTube channel:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO1ZHksN2xw&list=UUfesY0XTSh-JsGRXLKXCtSQ&index=1&feature=plcp

Well done, man. Very astute analysis.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

Uh a few posts have said we are going to end up like nazi Germany. It takes a nazi Skyler party to end up like nazi Germany. Don't be a smartass.

Which posts? I want specific quotes because that isn't something I ever said. I've stated multiple times, the comparison I am making to Nazi Germany is the passing of legislation that 'legalizes' the violation of civil liberties.

edit: And no, no it doesn't take an overtly authoritarian political party for this country to turn into a police state. That is very naive.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

The comparison to Nazi Germany is obviously not ideology. The comparison is being made because of the passage of legislation to 'legalize' the violation of civil liberties.

Is reading comprehension really this poor now days?

There's no need for you be such a dick, and don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.

Now, you say that this is a law that's done in secret. It was passed in public. Signed in public. It can be repealed in public.

I thought I could discuss Politics here without people acting like a 5 year old and calling out personal insults, but you've obviously disaproven that by being pretentious child.

 

[Marvolo]

Which posts? I want specific quotes because that isn't something I ever said. I've stated multiple times, the comparison I am making to Nazi Germany is the passing of legislation that 'legalizes' the violation of civil liberties.

Not you but others. I only quoted you to address your comment about the dangers of saying something can't happen. My post was directed at you in that regard and the rest was at the others fearing the rise of nazi Germany. Its not all towards you. I hoped you would take the part directed at you and the rest would be for the others. My bad. I didn't mean you had said a nazi party was rising but others had said that.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

There's no need for you be such a dick, and don't talk to me like I'm an idiot.

Now, you say that this is a law that's done in secret. It was passed in public. Signed in public. It can be repealed in public.

I thought I could discuss Politics here without people acting like a 5 year old and calling out personal insults, but you've obviously disaproven that by being pretentious child.

Excuse me but I don't appreciate everything I'm saying being misquoted because people aren't able to read properly. You can think I'm a dick if you wish but I find it dickish when people can't even take the time to properly understand what I'm saying, so that goes both ways.

Actually, what I said was that this is a law which is executed in secret. I did not say it's passed in secret. Please stop misquoting me, sir. Slow down a bit, take your time and carefully read what I say.

 

[Marvolo]

Which posts? I want specific quotes because that isn't something I ever said. I've stated multiple times, the comparison I am making to Nazi Germany is the passing of legislation that 'legalizes' the violation of civil liberties.

edit: And no, no it doesn't take an overtly authoritarian political party for this country to turn into a police state. That is very naive.

I'll bring up something I said earlier. This country has been picking people up and detaining illegally for years. This legislation doesn't do anything the government and CIA haven't already done. Yes it's a window but we are no where near a police state so there is time to work this out.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

I'll bring up something I said earlier. This country has been picking people up and detaining illegally for years. This legislation doesn't do anything the government and CIA haven't already done. Yes it's a window but we are no where near a police state so there is time to work this out.

Really? Educate me. I wasn't aware of this...? I think you might be referring to the illegal detention of non-U.S. citizens via the PATRIOT Act.

As for the second part of your statement...I'm not convinced.

 

[Marx]

The comparison to Nazi Germany is obviously not ideology. The comparison is being made because of the passage of legislation to 'legalize' the violation of civil liberties.

Is reading comprehension really this poor now days?

No one ever said a Nazi type party was going to take over. Please learn to read.

I would strongly encourage you to drop the attitude and the arrogance. There is no need to resort to this level of posting. Stick to the topic at hand and drop the personal digs. This is the only warning I will give.

 

[Crazy Quilt]

I would strongly encourage you to drop the attitude and the arrogance. There is no need to resort to this level of posting. Stick to the topic at hand and drop the personal digs. This is the only warning I will give.

I did not flame anyone.

 

[Marvolo]

Really? Educate me. I wasn't aware of this...? I think you might be referring to the illegal detention of non-U.S. citizens via the PATRIOT Act.

As for the second part of your statement...I'm not convinced.

After pearl harbor hundreds of thousands of Japanese American citizens were detained and moved to camps within the united states. No legislation then and they did it.

And the CIA has always picked up people long before the patriot act. Citizens or not it makes no difference to them. Ever heard of
Khalid El-Masri and the CIA practice of extraordinary rendition? Khalid was a German citizen confused as another person. He was kidnapped by the CIA flown out of the country stripped raped beaten and tortured. He was an inocent man. Extraordinary rendition has been around for years and gives the CIA the right to pick up anyone anytime they want and move them to any safe house and use any means necessary to aquire info. Since 2001 an estimated 3000 people have been transported around the world. This legislation shouldn't scare anyone anymore than the patriot act or any if the other quasi-legal stuff our government and its organizations do.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

Crazy Quilt - I'm with you all the way, man. I applaud you for bringing this serious issue to the attention of the Politics board. This is exactly the kind of serious, consequential topic that is generally ignored by the corporate press in favour of mindless election horserace coverage. As a result, most people don't even know the NDAA passed.

Of course, you have to give credit to Obama for taking his typical cowardice to a new low. Signing the bill on New Year's Eve...very sly. And of course, even though he says he has "reservations" about codifying the right to indefinitely lock people up without charges, he signs it anyway. Now that's leadership.

You have to love historical naivety. "We just aren't like them...it just cannot happen here..."

What about the comparison is not valid? The comparison is being made on the point of passing legislation to "legally" take away basic civil liberties akin to what the NDSAP did in Germany with the Enabling Acts. On the point in which the comparison is being made, it is a totally valid comparison.

Why is it any different for the U.S. government to take away these basic freedoms by legislation? How can we trust them to not brutalize people by using these new powers like the Nazis did in Germany(or the Stalinists did in the Soviet Union by 'disappearing' people)? The only argument is because "it's us". Not. Valid. Logic.

End of.

Everything you said is absolutely correct. People don't want to believe that the kind of stuff that happened in history's most infamous totalitarian dictatorships can happen here, even when it is.

The reality we live in is that the U.S. president has claimed the right to imprison or kill anyone in the world without charges or trial. He started a damn war without getting approval from Congress (even Bush at least got that authorization). America "disappears" people all the time; there are CIA black sites all over the world. People are abducted and sent there for years to be tortured without ever seeing a lawyer. Torture has also been thoroughly documented in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib.

This is exactly what people think of when they think of an authoritarian dictatorship! Torture. Concentration camps. Imprisoning people for political reasons. Autocratic power grabs. Thanks to the Bush-Obama tag team, the president now claims the power to do pretty much anything.

And yet people won't wake up. They won't believe it for exactly the reasons you outlined - because while the Nazis were Evil and Wicked, Americans are naturally Good and believe in Freedom and Democracy. Just like Nixon said "it's not illegal if the president does it", too many Americans today say "it can't be totalitarian if America is doing it."

Credit the myth of the free press. People believe the media is a free-for-all where any independent voice can make itself heard. They forget that a small number of corporations control everything we see and hear, and they have specific interests. The "free press" is anything but.

This article goes into more detail:

Propagandized America

When Americans think of propagandized people they think of the now defunct Soviet Union or Nazi Germany or perhaps a banana republic dictatorship of the sort supported by their government. Very few of them would think of themselves as being under the sway of a government and corporations who work hand in glove to tell outright falsehoods or hide important information that is inconvenient for them.

In this country, not only are we victims of a government intent upon keeping us misinformed or silent in the face of its wrong doing, but they work hand in hand with a media almost entirely owned by corporations. The interests of the people are rarely in sync with the interests of these corporations, and the result are media which work with the government which consciously works to misdirect our attention or have us believe outright lies.

[...]

“Government sources say,” are the buzz words for falsehoods told in the name of the state. So-called prestigious publications will print the most outrageous information without attribution, investigation or proof of very serious charges. The Washington Post prints a story, quoting an anonymous source, claiming that Gaddafi’s Libya not only was in possession of a mustard gas stockpile, but also that it was supplied by Iran.

When Israel and/or the United States attack Iran none of the highly paid anchor men or women or reporters who have access to the administration will stray far from the official party line. That is why one president is as dangerous as any other. The system rewarded the liars who drove America to war against Iraq. The anti-Iranian warmongers will probably fare equally well.

The court scribes who tell us that a statistical blip is proof of economic recovery or that the president had no choice but to accept the “Satan sandwich” budget deal are no better than propagandists in dictatorial states. The press corps in Libya, who actively assisted NATO in destroying that nation, committed international war crimes in the process. They will never reveal their own evil doing nor will they be called to account by a public that doesn’t even realize the magnitude of their crimes.

Anyone who is resistant to the notion that this country is awash in propaganda need look no further than the case of Anwar al-Awlaki. The president ordered the killing of an American citizen who was never charged with a crime. He then directed his minions to reveal to the New York Times the existence of a secret, extra legal memo which justifies his actions. The Times no doubt celebrated their role as court favorites and ignored the role that a newspaper ought to play in reporting a story that should have resulted in a presidential impeachment.

Americans love to say that they live in the greatest country in the world. Such a nation will be hard pressed to admit that they can trust little of the information they get. The nexus of a corrupt governmental structure and a corporate media results in nonsense on a good day and disinformation on a bad one. Our country is not great, it is just powerful and very, very dangerous.

 

[Axl Van Sixx]

After pearl harbor hundreds of thousands of Japanese American citizens were detained and moved to camps within the united states. No legislation then and they did it.

And the CIA has always picked up people long before the patriot act. Citizens or not it makes no difference to them. Ever heard of
Khalid El-Masri and the CIA practice of extraordinary rendition? Khalid was a German citizen confused as another person. He was kidnapped by the CIA flown out of the country stripped raped beaten and tortured. He was an inocent man. Extraordinary rendition has been around for years and gives the CIA the right to pick up anyone anytime they want and move them to any safe house and use any means necessary to aquire info. Since 2001 an estimated 3000 people have been transported around the world.

Thank you for this genuinely valuable information. Too bad you have to ruin it with...

This legislation shouldn't scare anyone anymore than the patriot act or any if the other quasi-legal stuff our government and its organizations do.

So much for the rule of law.

 

[Marvolo]

Thank you for this genuinely valuable information. Too bad you have to ruin it with...



So much for the rule of law.

You missed my meaning with the last bit. I'm saying its ridiculous people are all of a sudden scared by this legislation but have for years ignored the other corrupt goings on in this country. People should have never allowed the half the legislation put in effect since 9/11. Its like the sheep are waking up. I don't however think fear is the proper response. Awareness and action yes but fear not at all