NBA 2015-2016: Age of Exorbitant Television Money - Part 3

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]515375[/split]

 

[Thread Manager]

This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]513071[/split]

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

I love Oneal has a player and a person but what hurts him is he didn't play at a high level for as long has some other players have. Even thought oneal was dominating he was lazy and if he wasn't lazy and keept off say 20lbs or so from what he got up to I think he could have played at a high level for around a extra 2-3 years and that would then up him on the greatest of all time list.

I agree. Still a top 10 player, just not top 5.

 

[Reek]

Oh my God... PART 3!

This part is where the Hawks win the trophy next season.

 

[Lantern Venom]

I agree. Still a top 10 player, just not top 5.

Shaq might not have had the well-rounded game to be top 5 all time, but his physicality made him a force that totally altered the game. There are plenty of 7-footers in NBA history, but most of them were relatively skinny and slow. Shaq was 330lbs of muscle, desire, and athleticism. Age and injuries eventually slowed him down, but there was a period in the late 90s and early 2000s where all other teams could do is hope he got into foul trouble. Once he got into the paint, he simply couldn't be stopped.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

No doubt. I remember when he scored over 60 on his birthday back in the heyday. When he put his mind to it he was an overpowering force of nature.

 

[spiderman2]

No doubt. I remember when he scored over 60 on his birthday back in the heyday. When he put his mind to it he was an overpowering force of nature.

Also had like 20 rebounds that game lol. But when I think of how great a player is I don't just think of how good they where at there best but like how long they last. Like for example in there prim I think KG was a better player then Duncan but Duncan lasted playing at a high level much longer.

 

[Lantern Venom]

No doubt. I remember when he scored over 60 on his birthday back in the heyday. When he put his mind to it he was an overpowering force of nature.

In his earliest years, there were a couple of guys like Hakeem and D-Rob capable of using speed and similar length to frustrate Shaq. But as they got older, he got stronger and more patient in looking for his openings. For about 8 years, no team had an answer for him.

I also admired that he didn't mind sharing the load as he got older. Given his stature and celebrity, he could have rolled into all of those various towns and demanded more focus, but he understood that it was better for his teams if he gave the younger guys their chances to shine.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Also had like 20 rebounds that game lol. But when I think of how great a player is I don't just think of how good they where at there best but like how long they last. Like for example in there prim I think KG was a better player then Duncan but Duncan lasted playing at a high level much longer.

It was pretty close between the two, but as you said, longevity for Duncan and emotional stability over KG as well. Duncan was a much easier player to build a team around because of the nature of his game.

In his earliest years, there were a couple of guys like Hakeem and D-Rob capable of using speed and similar length to frustrate Shaq. But as they got older, he got stronger and more patient in looking for his openings. For about 8 years, no team had an answer for him.

I also admired that he didn't mind sharing the load as he got older. Given his stature and celebrity, he could have rolled into all of those various towns and demanded more focus, but he understood that it was better for his teams if gave the younger guys their chances to shine.

Agreed. Shaq was also a very underrated passer imo.

 

[spiderman2]

It was pretty close between the two, but as you said, longevity for Duncan and emotional stability over KG as well. Duncan was a much easier player to build a team around because of the nature of his game.



Agreed. Shaq was also a very underrated passer imo.

Agree and even for has big he was he had a post game unlike some one like Howard lol. That is why I find it funny when people used to be so high on Howard. All he could ever do is dunk and he is now like what a like 36 year old Oneal was lol.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

True. I think he was a better rebounder then Shaq, but nowhere near as dominant overall. Without the athleticism he once had his game has fallen off the rails.

 

[spiderman2]

True. I think he was a better rebounder then Shaq, but nowhere near as dominant overall. Without the athleticism he once had his game has fallen off the rails.

Yeah better rebound but already it has gotten to the point where I really don't know how much longer he has left.

 

[SoNicRaDiATioN]

Certainly doesn't appear to be a max player anymore.

 

[Doc Samson]

I also admired that he didn't mind sharing the load as he got older. Given his stature and celebrity, he could have rolled into all of those various towns and demanded more focus, but he understood that it was better for his teams if he gave the younger guys their chances to shine.

Hate to be that guy again, but by virtue of his personality I guess, people forget that Shaq had issues at every stop he was at outside of Boston where he was completely a shell of himself.

By the time he left these places, Wade didn't like him, Nash didn't like him, even LeBron couldn't deal with him. That doesn't take into account how much the whole Magic franchise felt burned.

Because of the publicity of him and Kobe's back and forth, most people only remember that and usually pile it all on Kobe. But Shaq played with a lot more superstar talent than Kobe ever did, and it never ended well with anybody, almost strictly because of Shaq's ego.

 

[Matt]

I still say that David Robinson is the best center of that era and is tragically underrated. History seems to have just forgotten him.

 

[Doc Samson]

I still say that David Robinson is the best center of that era and is tragically underrated. History seems to have just forgotten him.

I don't know man, the way Hakeem gave him the business in the WCF was legendary. He was trying to make a statement against David, I think he did emphatically.

 

[Mister J]

That was an evisceration. Jesus.

 

[Matt]

I don't know man, the way Hakeem gave him the business in the WCF was legendary. He was trying to make a statement against David, I think he did emphatically.

True. But I do feel like during that time period, when both were in their prime, Hakeem generally had the better team around him, which put a lot more of the pressure on Robinson.

I will say this, the 90s was an amazing period for big men. You had Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mutombo, Mourning, Divac, Smits, and I know I am forgetting a few. It really was a great era for that position.

 

[Infinity9999x]

True. But I do feel like during that time period, when both were in their prime, Hakeem generally had the better team around him, which put a lot more of the pressure on Robinson.

I will say this, the 90s was an amazing period for big men. You had Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing, Shaq, Mutombo, Mourning, Divac, Smits, and I know I am forgetting a few. It really was a great era for that position.

And you had Kareem playing until 89.

Though I will say, I'd be very interested to see how Shaq would do now in this era of high screens. Big men are required to be fast now, early Shaq was pretty quick, but later Shaq...not so much.

 

[Matt]

And you had Kareem playing until 89.

Though I will say, I'd be very interested to see how Shaq would do now in this era of high screens. Big men are required to be fast now, early Shaq was pretty quick, but later Shaq...not so much.

Yep. I don't think a lot of the 90s era centers would thrive in today's speed based game. Centers of that era were all about physicality and strength. You had the exceptions, of course. But a lot of these guys just wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed needed to play these days. On the flip side, I doubt many of today's players would be able to handle the brute physicality of yesteryear.

I try to think of Le***** matching up against some of these guys. While he is certainly a physical specimen, mentally he is soft. He flops at the slightest contact (which the refs would just ignore back in the day) and he whines and cries any time someone so much as looks at him wrong. Its not a knock on him, per se. He is just part of a different generation that was brought up thinking that was the game. Its no longer a physical game. Even putting aside centers, I cannot imagine how much he would get pushed around by guys like Barkley, Malone, and Rodman, much less Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, etc. And the Bad Boys Pistons...forget about it.

As I reminisce about old school NBA, it gets kinda sad how soft today's game has become.

I mean, even looking at those final seconds of Game 7...after that foul (which wasn't even a hard foul)...to see Big Baby Bron Bron on the floor, hamming it up, slapping the floor as he cried and whined....you would never see that in a 70s, 80s or 90s era game. Not in that situation. He got a bruise. Its not like there was a broken bone or even a sprain. But in Game 7 of the NBA finals, with 15 seconds left on the clock, about to take crucial free throws that would either clinch the title or open up the game...he was on the floor crying because he fell. Its an embarrassment to the game.

For all of the knocks on Jordan, I think we can agree that the Flu Game is a pretty amazing accomplishment. You would never see that in the modern NBA. These diva players, who have been coddled since grade school just don't have that kind of toughness. They won't even play through cramps, much less a real illness or minor injury. There is no toughness left in the modern NBA.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Yep. I don't think a lot of the 90s era centers would thrive in today's speed based game. Centers of that era were all about physicality and strength. You had the exceptions, of course. But a lot of these guys just wouldn't be able to keep up with the speed needed to play these days. On the flip side, I doubt many of today's players would be able to handle the brute physicality of yesteryear.

I try to think of Le***** matching up against some of these guys. While he is certainly a physical specimen, mentally he is soft. He flops at the slightest contact (which the refs would just ignore back in the day) and he whines and cries any time someone so much as looks at him wrong. Its not a knock on him, per se. He is just part of a different generation that was brought up thinking that was the game. Its no longer a physical game. Even putting aside centers, I cannot imagine how much he would get pushed around by guys like Barkley, Malone, and Rodman, much less Shaq, Wilt, Kareem, etc. And the Bad Boys Pistons...forget about it.

As I reminisce about old school NBA, it gets kinda sad how soft today's game has become.

I mean, even looking at those final seconds of Game 7...after that foul (which wasn't even a hard foul)...to see Big Baby Bron Bron on the floor, hamming it up, slapping the floor as he cried and whined....you would never see that in a 70s, 80s or 90s era game. Not in that situation. He got a bruise. Its not like there was a broken bone or even a sprain. But in Game 7 of the NBA finals, with 15 seconds left on the clock, about to take crucial free throws that would either clinch the title or open up the game...he was on the floor crying because he fell. Its an embarrassment to the game.

For all of the knocks on Jordan, I think we can agree that the Flu Game is a pretty amazing accomplishment. You would never see that in the modern NBA. These diva players, who have been coddled since grade school just don't have that kind of toughness. They won't even play through cramps, much less a real illness or minor injury. There is no toughness left in the modern NBA.

The game has definitely changed. Though, I don't think it's so much about being soft as it is about playing to the way the game has changed. All these guys, LeBron included, I think would stop the flopping if it didn't get them anything. These players are by and large very smart and calculating athletes. I don't think they flop because they're soft, I think they flop because they know it gets them what they want. We're all dealing with hyper competitive people, and they'll do whatever they have to do to win.

By the same token, the 80s and early 90s crowd beat the f**&k out of one another because they were allowed to, and they did it because they wanted to win too. You can bet that had the game changed during that era and flopping was rewarded the way it was now, they would have all done it as well.

And I agree that Jordan's sick game was incredible. That, and Isaiah scoring 20 on a broken ankle in 88 are two of my favorite "tough it out" game moments to watch. However, I will say in some cases I can understand why it would be harder to play with cramps than with either of those injuries. I once got drilled in the leg during football and sustained a bone bruise on two of my leg bones, but I was able to finish out the game because the swelling hadn't started yet and my adrenaline was still going. I was out for three weeks after that, but I was able to finish the game. However, I got a really bad cramp during a practice and I literally could not move. My muscles had seized so hard in my thigh that I couldn't bend my leg. (I was really dehydrated.) No amount of willpower was going to overcome the physical reaction my leg was going through because it didn't have the water in its system it needed to function.

So I don't harp on the cramp thing as much as some people do. If I had to finish one game, I would pick getting the bone bruise again over the cramping, because with a cramp you just can't do anything other than wait until it passes.

 

[Infinity9999x]

This is a quote from Isiah about LeBron cramping actually.

"There is no athlete on the planet who could've played through those cramps," Thomas told Yahoo Sports. "Michael Jordan absolutely couldn't have played through those cramps. I absolutely couldn't have played through those cramps. As an athlete, there's nothing you could do."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/isiah-...-have-played-with-those-cramps-071514640.html

 

[Matt]

The game has definitely changed. Though, I don't think it's so much about being soft as it is about playing to the way the game has changed. All these guys, LeBron included, I think would stop the flopping if it didn't get them anything. These players are by and large very smart and calculating athletes. I don't think they flop because they're soft, I think they flop because they know it gets them what they want. We're all dealing with hyper competitive people, and they'll do whatever they have to do to win.

By the same token, the 80s and early 90s crowd beat the f**&k out of one another because they were allowed to, and they did it because they wanted to win too. You can bet that had the game changed during that era and flopping was rewarded the way it was now, they would have all done it as well.

And I agree that Jordan's sick game was incredible. That, and Isaiah scoring 20 on a broken ankle in 88 are two of my favorite "tough it out" game moments to watch. However, I will say in some cases I can understand why it would be harder to play with cramps than with either of those injuries. I once got drilled in the leg during football and sustained a bone bruise on two of my leg bones, but I was able to finish out the game because the swelling hadn't started yet and my adrenaline was still going. I was out for three weeks after that, but I was able to finish the game. However, I got a really bad cramp during a practice and I literally could not move. My muscles had seized so hard in my thigh that I couldn't bend my leg. (I was really dehydrated.) No amount of willpower was going to overcome the physical reaction my leg was going through because it didn't have the water in its system it needed to function.

So I don't harp on the cramp thing as much as some people do. If I had to finish one game, I would pick getting the bone bruise again over the cramping, because with a cramp you just can't do anything other than wait until it passes.

All fair points. Though one must consider, did the game change because of the players of this generation or did the game change the players of this generation?

As to the cramp thing, I think I'd be inclined to give more of a pass if it weren't such a common occurrence for that particular player. I mean, I can think of about 10 more examples of that, or his game 7 crying on the floor right before the foul shots, etc. Le***** seems to make a habit of that kind of weakness. I don't think we've ever seen him truly play through pain. That makes the Cramp Game all the more unforgivable, IMO and makes me less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Matt]

This is a quote from Isiah about LeBron cramping actually.

"There is no athlete on the planet who could've played through those cramps," Thomas told Yahoo Sports. "Michael Jordan absolutely couldn't have played through those cramps. I absolutely couldn't have played through those cramps. As an athlete, there's nothing you could do."

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/isiah-...-have-played-with-those-cramps-071514640.html

In fairness, Isiah is a broadcaster now. The sports media is a lot like the entertainment media. They don't hold athletes to any real degree of scrutiny because they want access. It is a field the runs on nepotism. Isiah, as a media presence, has to say things like that.

 

[Infinity9999x]

All fair points. Though one must consider, did the game change because of the players of this generation or did the game change the players of this generation?

As to the cramp thing, I think I'd be inclined to give more of a pass if it weren't such a common occurrence for that particular player. I mean, I can think of about 10 more examples of that, or his game 7 crying on the floor right before the foul shots, etc. Le***** seems to make a habit of that kind of weakness. I don't think we've ever seen him truly play through pain. That makes the Cramp Game all the more unforgivable, IMO and makes me less inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt.

That I can see. I think in the spurs situation, it was understandable. As for the others...who knows. Maybe it's a result of mental weakness, maybe it's the result of possibly utilizing too many performance enhancing substances...or maybe that's his own genetic cross to bear. The guy is essentially the closest thing we've seen to a superhuman, maybe it's just hard for his body to stay hydrated. When you get athletes of that level, it seems like all of them have their own kryptonite of some sort. Look at Bo Jackson...dude was literally too strong for his own bones and tendons. (To be fair, he never really worked on his flexibility either, but still).

And as far as the game goes...I think it was more of a conscious move by the NBA to increase scoring and make games more "exciting." And I think the players adapted to that. I think these guys are all too competitive to do anything else. If you waive a magic wand and suddenly the refs all revert to an 80's mindset, it might take the players a season to adjust, but you can bet your ass they would. Because at the end of the day, most of these guys just want to win.

Now, the non-cynical view would be the NBA did it for safety. Basketball in the 70's was likened to hockey in how many fights there were, until Tomjonovitch was nearly killed in a fight. People probably started to realize that breaking up a fight between hockey players (who usually aren't much over 6ft tall) and breaking up a fight between ridiculously athletic, strong, and fast men that range from 6'2 to 7 feet tall are two very different things. I mean, hell, imagine if some of the guys in the game today went at it in a fist fight. Who's going to break it up if Lebron and Cousins have a go at one another? Hell, you'd need elephant tranquilizers to take them down.


So that could have played a factor too...but I still think it was because the NBA wanted to make the game more "exciting."

In fairness, Isiah is a broadcaster now. The sports media is a lot like the entertainment media. They don't hold athletes to any real degree of scrutiny because they want access. It is a field the runs on nepotism. Isiah, as a media presence, has to say things like that.

Eh, there's plenty of broadcasters that love ripping on LeBron. Look at Barkley, or Skip. I tend to agree with him in this case, for that particular game at least.