The Dark Knight Nolan Describes TDK Plot as 'Grim.'

[Heretic]

Eros, what you're forgetting is that this Batman is a MOVIE, and though based on the character in the comics, he has a unique story to tell. The movie Batman is pretty much an emotional wreck in a way that the comics Batman wasn't really handled in the begining. Sure, the comics Batman has been shown to be kinda off in the past, but by then his morals were firm. The movie Batman has only just begun his journey, and his morals aren't firmly in place. It's part of his journey. In fact, in the comics, Batman early years included carrying a gun and killing bad guys himself, so technically this is NOT out of character with Batmans early years.
In other words, get over it.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Dude Batman let him die, He says "I can't kill you, but i won't save you." Which is a thin way to say, im gonna leave you on this train to die. I always though Batman didn't play those games with his enemies, he would stop them and make sure they live to pay for their crimes. Razz had no way of escaping that train ,and less he had a glider like batman did . Bruce new if he left Razz on that train, he would be condmeing him to a death. If this were any other verisons of Batman, [save for probbaly Burtons] Batman would beat up Razz, and then drag him off the train to put his ass in Jail forever.

OKay. His name isn't Razz.

Secondly, I agree with you. Shouldve saved him.

Thirdly? Ra's didn't die.

Fourthly, if he did, he's got the lazarus pit to bring him back

 

[Nepenthes]

Eros, what you're forgetting is that this Batman is a MOVIE, and though based on the character in the comics, he has a unique story to tell. The movie Batman is pretty much an emotional wreck in a way that the comics Batman wasn't really handled in the begining. Sure, the comics Batman has been shown to be kinda off in the past, but by then his morals were firm. The movie Batman has only just begun his journey, and his morals aren't firmly in place. It's part of his journey. In fact, in the comics, Batman early years included carrying a gun and killing bad guys himself, so technically this is NOT out of character with Batmans early years.
In other words, get over it.

That sounds like an excuse made in hindsight to justify the deed. A deed that was manslaughter!

As I've said befoe the main reason it was stupid is because it ruined a golden opportunity to demonstrate, in high action, a core element of Batmans character. Not whether it was right or wrong for Bruce in the 'reality' of the movie.

Imagine Batman struggling to save a terrorist that just tried to kill him and ruin his city. What that says about his morals, drive and self-belief. Is it inspiring, or is it insane? Both, which is what Batman is.


Ronny hate to break it to you but 'Razz' ain't coming back

 

[Ronny Shade]

Sure he is.


I mean, that's the main reason why I like this franchise.

If that doesn't bear fruit I'll have a fit.

 

[Superwoman Prime]

God knows this was worth making an entire thread over.

 

[Heretic]

nepenthes...you are leaving out another core element of Batmans character...lapses in judgement..

Not only did batman intentionally try to shoot and otherwise kill his enemies back in the early years of the comics, but even recently his poor judgement helped create the entire Infinite Crisis disaster...

So, the question is not do you want batman in the movies to be like batman in the comics, it is do you want batman to be a newly designed charcter of hope and justice, which he was never intended to be?

 

[Ronny Shade]

I would love to see him regretting his decision in TDK, but somehow, I don't see that happening.

 

[Eros]

if Batman had major lapses in judgement Joker would of been dead years ago.

 

[Ronny Shade]

lol true

 

[L0ngsh0t]

hmmm, about TDK being grimm, maybe to send a message to Dent, they take a page out of TLH kind of and actually have joker murder Dent's wife/girlfriend whatever role they give her if she is in it

 

[Ronny Shade]

um... that wasn't in TLH

 

[cryptic name]

if Batman had major lapses in judgement Joker would of been dead years ago.

well, he would've killed the joker in hush were it not for gordon's intervention.

 

[Ronny Shade]

that has nothing to do with what he was saying

 

[L0ngsh0t]

um... that wasn't in TLH

well, maybe this was something different i haven't read them in a while, but didn't holiday or someone like attempt to blow up the Dent residence or something like and they thought at least it would kill his chick, and then by some cunning preplanned idead by dent and batman they like made it so that didn't happen
i could be wrong, i haven't read them in over like a year

but regardless if that was in TLH or not, thats why i said kind of like TLH, just like have the joker possibely murder Dents chick maybe in cold blood or something like he stalks her john carpenters halloween style and slits her throat or something, and that pushes Dent over the edge maybe

just maybe i dunno it was a thought, i suppose really not much had to do with TLH even if i am right about that scene

 

[66 Face]

Actually, Nolan´s take comes from a lot of different Batman sources, if you look at BB, there´s YO, there´s stuff from the seventies, there´s some Bill Finger era stuff, there´s Animated Series, there´s DKR, there´s Jeph Loeb... I believe the same will be true about TDK.

Thats a good thing IMO. I really think thats what made TAS so great. Timm and Dini had their own take on Batman but they stayed true to a comic legend and used the good things to come out of the characters past.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Yeah there was a scene where Falcone's men bombed Dent's house.

It wasn't joker though.

I see what you're saying. You just didn't do a very good job of explaining it and the TLH connection threw me off.

 

[L0ngsh0t]

Yeah there was a scene where Falcone's men bombed Dent's house.

It wasn't joker though.

I see what you're saying. You just didn't do a very good job of explaining it and the TLH connection threw me off.

word

 

[Heretic]

Actually it does...batman has killed, and over the years has realized that he shouldnt...yet given the proper button pushing he will go over the edge...

So, I'm sorry, how is that different from Batman Begins again??

 

[Ronny Shade]

I'd have liked it better if he decided not to kill at the start and stuck to it.

 

[Heretic]

thats great Ronny, but he didnt. batman is a human being (uh...fictional human being I mean) and we grow and change and none of us are perfect...Batman of all heroes is DEFINITELY far from perfect.

 

[Ronny Shade]

What sets Batman apart from zorro is that he doesn't kill. It's one of the developments that happened along the way that were good.

 

[ultimatefan]

Not that again... Batman didn´t kill R´as. Saving him would considerably reduce his chances of leaving the train, which was very hard and risky as it was. His cape was designed for him would most likely not hold Ra´s weight. When your own safety is at risk, you don´t have any obligation to save the other person. To destroy the train was a necessary measure, otherwise thousands, maybe millions of people would kill each other out of mass panic.

 

[Tojo]

Hmm so Nolan says TDK is grim? He also said BB was dark and gritty. It was neither.

BTW Ra's is dead, because a lazarus pit isn't gritty or grounded in realism remember.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Not that again... Batman didn´t kill R´as. Saving him would considerably reduce his chances of leaving the train, which was very hard and risky as it was. His cape was designed for him would most likely not hold Ra´s weight. When your own safety is at risk, you don´t have any obligation to save the other person. To destroy the train was a necessary measure, otherwise thousands, maybe millions of people would kill each other out of mass panic.

to quote El Payaso "If that were Rachel on that train, you'd be damn sure he'd figure out a way to get her off"

I'm paraphrasing.

 

[Crooklyn]

I don't really get why this is a topic of so much debate. It's not even a question of ambiguity. CLEARLY, Nolan & Goyer wanted Bats to leave Ra's there. Or else they wouldn't have written it in!

And I won't doubt that in a way, Bats did have a hand in Ra's "dying". It's the equivalent of just standing there on the poolside, while watching another person drown. The moment the "...but I don't have to save you" line was uttered, I knew it'd cause a sh1tstorm with the fans. I would've preferrred if he would've stuck with the whole "no killing by any means" policy, but at the same time I'm not too mad. This is the Batman that first starts off, makes mistakes, who knows....maybe this choice will come to haunt him in the future...