The Dark Knight Nolan Describes TDK Plot as 'Grim.'

[Ronny Shade]

lol I hope not

 

[I Am The Knight]

Wasn't there a comic with Batman and etrigan, where Etrigan was trying to kill him and Bats was holding him off and then when finally backed into a corner, instead of killing Batman, he kissed him? Am I dreaming this?

That's f***ed up....t:

 

[raybia]

lol I hope not

On the cheek. It was a comic I believe in the 90s. The artist was the one who drew Tim Drake's 1st appearance as Robin.

 

[The Sage]

Yeah I do, its in a movie called Batman Begins. Watch it. Those scenes where intentionally written, filmed, and edited into the movie for a reason.

I said proof. You said Nolan intentionally wrote it that way. I thought you had an interview or an article with him saying so. If you don't, you're just making assumptions.

Frank Castle justice? Don't insult our intellegence.

Don't insult everyone else's. Leaving a man to die when you could save him is something Frank Castle would do, not Batman. Batman would save his worst enemy despite how he feels about him.

Yeah, if you are a cop, but not if you are CIA, nor if you are Batman. If you want straight reality, then forgo watching Nolan's Batman and watch an re-run of Cops instead.

That's funny, because I thought Batman nearly followed the law the same way a cop does. A CIA agent is a poor example, since they are trained to kill and will do so if necessary. Are you saying that Nolan's Batman has a right to kill a criminal instead of bringing him to justice.

Oh, and if I want the kind of justice I'm talking about, I don't need to watch Cops. I'll just go read, umm...Year One, The Killing Joke, and No Man's Land. You know, Batman comicbooks.

Not to say that the man under the mask isn't a compassionate fello because its that compassion that drives him to become Batman, but while he is performing the job, then justice becomes more of an priority at that moment.

If justice is priority, then the criminal should be arrested and taken in instead of Batman deciding his fate.

Bruce challenge is to maintain a balance between his compassion and what is necessary to win his war on crime.

By the way, do you think a creature of compassion would try to instill fear and terror? That what Bruce states as his goal in BB.

Well the Batman in the comics seems to do it just fine, scaring and terrifying criminals but not killing them. So yes, I do think it's possible.

Ras put himself into the situation to die, and in fact it was a suicide mission.

If Joker puts himself in a similar situation (which the Joker is much too vain to sacrifice himself for any cause) then who knows, may Nolan will write it that way. It not my thinking that matters, its Nolans.

If he writes it that way, then we'll have the same problem we have here.

Who said that Bruce hated Ra's? I think Nolan made it clear that Ra's/Ducard became a surrogate father to Bruce. Was he at odds with Ra's? Clearly. Was he angry at him for trying to destroy Gotham? Certainly. But none of this erased the love and compassion that Bruce had for the man, that in spite of everything, is directly responsible for saving his life and putting him on the path of his destiny. Bruce will always owe Ra's that.

None of that seemed to matter when Batman told Ra's he didn't have to save him.

 

[Crooklyn]

Ras put himself into the situation to die, and in fact it was a suicide mission.

If Joker puts himself in a similar situation (which the Joker is much too vain to sacrifice himself for any cause) then who knows, may Nolan will write it that way. It not my thinking that matters, its Nolans.

..eh?

I'm pretty sure it wasn't a suicide mission to being with. He's done this type of thing before, I doubt Gotham would be any different, or his last "hoo-rah". He even bothered to put on a gas mask before turning the machine on, so he's taking some precautions..

Maybe you're referring to the jammed controls? How it was shot, it was either an accident, or impulsive thinking due to Batman's sudden appearance. That wasn't part of the plan however.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Back to the topic, this movie being described as grim along with Nolan's early quote about TDK representing "thinks having to get worst before they get better" envokes The Original Star Wars trilogy, specifically "Empire".

So is TDK Nolan's Empire? As long as the third movie isn't his ROTJ. I don't think Batman and Ewoks would be a good combo.

If that's the case then this will be such a open ending for the 3rd.

 

[Crooklyn]

*cough* Dent's scarring *cough*

 

[raybia]

None of that seemed to matter when Batman told Ra's he didn't have to save him.

That's because he heeded Ra's advise and learn to do what was necessary as well as kept his compassion in check.


I said proof. You said Nolan intentionally wrote it that way. I thought you had an interview or an article with him saying so. If you don't, you're just making assumptions.
I don't have to make assumptions. I have taken film classes and those scenes weren't a coincidence. There are major underlying themes that are repeated over and over.



Don't insult everyone else's. Leaving a man to die when you could save him is something Frank Castle would do, not Batman.
I'm not an expert on The Punisher but certainly there are going to be some similarities since the Punisher was created as a Batman ripoff.

Batman would save his worst enemy despite how he feels about him.
Apparently, not Nolan's Batman.



That's funny, because I thought Batman nearly followed the law the same way a cop does.
In some versions, but not all.

A CIA agent is a poor example, since they are trained to kill and will do so if necessary. Are you saying that Nolan's Batman has a right to kill a criminal instead of bringing him to justice.
Nolan has the right as the director of the movie just as Burton actually did have his Batman kill. But Nolan has enough respect for the source material and the current incarnation of the character to do that as he demonstrated in BB.

Oh, and if I want the kind of justice I'm talking about, I don't need to watch Cops. I'll just go read, umm...Year One, The Killing Joke, and No Man's Land. You know, Batman comicbooks.
Not every comicbook story has portrayed Batman that way and you know it, especially at the beginning of Batman in the comics. Nolan is not confining his Batman to anyone interpretation nor to any specific time period.

Batman leaving Ra's on the train was an very morally ambiguous moment but I really think that we will see Nolan's Batman continue to evolving as the first movie demonstrated that we only saw "Batman in the making" rather than the finish product.

In other words, the Batman in the 2nd or 3rd movie would probably have saved Ra's rather than leave him.



If justice is priority, then the criminal should be arrested and taken in instead of Batman deciding his fate.
Maybe, but not in BB, nor with Batman at that stage of his career.


Well the Batman in the comics seems to do it just fine, scaring and terrifying criminals but not killing them. So yes, I do think it's possible.
And again, Batman didn't kill Ra's in BB.




If he writes it that way, then we'll have the same problem we have here.
Possibily.


Remember when Bruce said, "I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong."?

I think the train scene plays out that line and I think its brilliant on Nolan's part that we as fans are split on whether or not it was right or wrong for Batman to leave Ra's on the train.

Neither side can prove to the other who is right and who is wrong about this scene.

That is why I love this movie because it stimulates our thinks instead of being mere eye candy.

 

[Demon Within]

I dont think iv ever posted in the Batman forums. Anyway things I would like to see in TDk.

1) Batman actually do some detective work. The very minimal detective work he has done in all the movies have been ****ty.

2) No more stealing from the Bond series and having a different chick in every movie. Heres a new idea...how bout dont add a crap ass love story no one wants to see. Silence of the Lambs didnt have a love story and it managed pretty well.

3) A darker atmosphere. No spotlights, strobe lights or any kind of light except daylight and street lights. Keep Batman in the shadows barely visable when hes talking to people. Its what he really does and there will be less nitpic about the costume.

4) no over the top, look-at-me-im-insane villains. I hate to reference the same movie again but Dr. Lector is 5x more insane then Two face from B:F simply because he really doesnt see the fact hes out of his mind. Lector with makeup= the joker.

5) Get rid of the voice (you know the one) from batman begins. It took away 1000000 cool points from the movie. Seriously.

 

[Crooklyn]

1) Batman actually do some detective work. The very minimal detective work he has done in all the movies have been ****ty.

2) No more stealing from the Bond series and having a different chick in every movie. Heres a new idea...how bout dont add a crap ass love story no one wants to see. Silence of the Lambs didnt have a love story and it managed pretty well.

Agreed, Talia or Selina ONLY.

3) A darker atmosphere. No spotlights, strobe lights or any kind of light except daylight and street lights. Keep Batman in the shadows barely visable when hes talking to people. Its what he really does and there will be less nitpic about the costume.

This I can see happening. We didn't see Bats in shadow too much in BB so hopefully that'll be addressed.

Lector with makeup= the joker.

Severely disagreed. They're both our of their f'n minds, but they're on opposite sides of the spectrum.

5) Get rid of the voice (you know the one) from batman begins. It took away 1000000 cool points from the movie. Seriously.

I think they should make the voice more consistent. The voice he had during the interrogation scene (for yelling) & outside Gordon's home (normal)...would be ideal. Get rid of the other things.

 

[Boom]

I actually thought Bale's Batman voice was at it's best in the cave scene with Rachel. It had a slight rasp to it, without being forced and over-done.

 

[Miranda Fox]

I actually thought Bale's Batman voice was at it's best in the cave scene with Rachel. It had a slight rasp to it, without being forced and over-done.

Agreed. It was spot on then. Although I never had a major problem with his voice, I do feel some consistency would be an improvement.

 

[Crooklyn]

It sounded soft compared to the rest of the film imo.

My fav. is still the one outside Gordon's home: "A storm's coming..."
Bale just said it with the right amount of rasp, coldness, and mystery.

 

[Demon Within]

Agreed, Talia or Selina ONLY.


This I can see happening. We didn't see Bats in shadow too much in BB so hopefully that'll be addressed.


Severely disagreed. They're both our of their f'n minds, but they're on opposite sides of the spectrum.


I think they should make the voice more consistent. The voice he had during the interrogation scene (for yelling) & outside Gordon's home (normal)...would be ideal. Get rid of the other things.

I can see why you disagree with my lector=joker statement because your right they are vastly different. What im trying to imply is that I want Joker to be more of a serial killer with a sense of humor about his actions and thinks its normal to dress like the joker from a deck of cards.

I want my reaction to Joker to be as follows when I see his crimes and when I see him.

"Jesus the way he killed that guy is witty/funny and twisted at the same time"

"his appearance and attitude might be funny, but his actions are completely ****ing insane"

Dr. Lector in mannar and mostly speech appeared sophisticated and elitist yet under his mask was a barbaric monster with nothing but evil intent. He never really saw his actions as "wrong". The other Batman villains new they were doing bad things so to prove they were "insane" they pretty much acted like "weeeeee look at me im a bad guy in a costume I MUST BE INSANE". Hopefully NOW iv explained it well enough.

 

[Eros]

Joker can't touch Dr.Hannibal Lector, Joker is an clinically insane, and he does things simply to either kill batman or fufuill his own sick sense of humour. Dr.Lector is far more mysterous and does not crack to many Jokes, doesn't leave cards behind, hes super intelligent and manupulater, and then when he sees an opening he strikes and literally devours his prey. The reason lector is so different then most other fictional villians, is that behind his classy and intelluctual apperance and demeanor lies a sick cannibalistic physcopath.

 

[Nepenthes]

Grim...


is when the Joker puts a smile on Rachael Dawes' lopsided head.

 

[newwaveboy87]

I think Nolan's following the Batman movie tradition of basing the atmosphere of the story to fit a specific of Batman's career in the comics. It's what every major Batman film has done thus far. I mean, think about it:

Batman - 1930's era Batman (He used machine guns, killed criminals, and was more of a grim creature of the night)

Batman Returns - 40's era Batman (This Batman was pretty much the same, except for that it began to go 'out there' in some respects.)

Batman Forever - 50's era Batman (The first real era where Batman did outrageous things, like visit Mars and turn into Giant Apes. While this Batman didn't do that, the sets and the situations speak for themselves)

Batman & Robin - 60's era Batman (Batman and Robin being public figures, over the top villains and situations, ect... Need I say more?)

Batman Begins - 70's era Batman (The era where Batman regained his darker roots, Began journeying outside of Gotham City, and acknowledging a real world outside of Gotham. Also where Ra's Al Ghul first appeared)

So... that said... it's possible TDK will be in line with the 80's era of Batman. Which is damned good, as far as I'm concerned, considering the 80's brought us Year One, The Dark Knight Returns, and The Killing Joke, aswell as the first journeying into Bruce's psychosis.

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if TDK was intentionally darker, and Batman was a little meaner in this one. That combined with the characterisations of The Joker by both Alan Moore and Frank Miller of that era is getting me pumped for this, provided my theory is true. (Which I think is in part of Micheal Ulsan producing these films. He's the one that first brought this to my attention in interviews on the B89 special featurettes.)

god i hope so

 

[Nepenthes]

If the trend continues into B3, I hope not.

 

[Darkest Knight]

Bale had the best Batman voice, bar none. And exact replication of how it is described in the comics.

 

[ultimatefan]

That's because he heeded Ra's advise and learn to do what was necessary as well as kept his compassion in check.


I said proof. You said Nolan intentionally wrote it that way. I thought you had an interview or an article with him saying so. If you don't, you're just making assumptions.
I don't have to make assumptions. I have taken film classes and those scenes weren't a coincidence. There are major underlying themes that are repeated over and over.



Don't insult everyone else's. Leaving a man to die when you could save him is something Frank Castle would do, not Batman.
I'm not an expert on The Punisher but certainly there are going to be some similarities since the Punisher was created as a Batman ripoff.

Batman would save his worst enemy despite how he feels about him.
Apparently, not Nolan's Batman.



That's funny, because I thought Batman nearly followed the law the same way a cop does.
In some versions, but not all.

A CIA agent is a poor example, since they are trained to kill and will do so if necessary. Are you saying that Nolan's Batman has a right to kill a criminal instead of bringing him to justice.
Nolan has the right as the director of the movie just as Burton actually did have his Batman kill. But Nolan has enough respect for the source material and the current incarnation of the character to do that as he demonstrated in BB.

Oh, and if I want the kind of justice I'm talking about, I don't need to watch Cops. I'll just go read, umm...Year One, The Killing Joke, and No Man's Land. You know, Batman comicbooks.
Not every comicbook story has portrayed Batman that way and you know it, especially at the beginning of Batman in the comics. Nolan is not confining his Batman to anyone interpretation nor to any specific time period.

Batman leaving Ra's on the train was an very morally ambiguous moment but I really think that we will see Nolan's Batman continue to evolving as the first movie demonstrated that we only saw "Batman in the making" rather than the finish product.
In other words, the Batman in the 2nd or 3rd movie would probably have saved Ra's rather than leave him.



If justice is priority, then the criminal should be arrested and taken in instead of Batman deciding his fate.
Maybe, but not in BB, nor with Batman at that stage of his career.


Well the Batman in the comics seems to do it just fine, scaring and terrifying criminals but not killing them. So yes, I do think it's possible.
And again, Batman didn't kill Ra's in BB.




If he writes it that way, then we'll have the same problem we have here.
Possibily.


Remember when Bruce said, "I lost many assumptions about the simple nature of right and wrong."?

I think the train scene plays out that line and I think its brilliant on Nolan's part that we as fans are split on whether or not it was right or wrong for Batman to leave Ra's on the train.

Neither side can prove to the other who is right and who is wrong about this scene.

That is why I love this movie because it stimulates our thinks instead of being mere eye candy.

Morally ambiguous is the right word and that´s exactly why it´s interesting. It leaves you wondering.

 

[raybia]

Morally ambiguous is the right word and that´s exactly why it´s interesting. It leaves you wondering.

That what I love about Batman and its the reason that Batman and Superman has had their share of conflicts.

 

[Beelze]

That's the WHOLE POINT of Batman. He doesn't kill.

There's a lot more to the character than the modern-day notion that he doesn't kill. Still, if that's all you see in the character, then you'd be able to enjoy just about any character that doesn't kill, as much as you enjoy Batman. Anyhoo, the lives of innocents vs. the life of Ra's al Ghul. The choice is easy.

 

[Dr. Fate]

Source: http://www.eventguide.ie/articles.elive?session_id=1163428283107475&sku=061113142724



This stuff just makes me more and more curious about the plot...

Isn't pretty much everything "grim" these days?

 

[ultimatefan]

Isn't pretty much everything "grim" these days?

Batman was grim before almost everybody else.

 

[WeaponXProject]

Maybe he meant "glib"....Tom Cruise anyone? JK!

If Matt Damon plays this role then I would like to see his drastic crazed obsessed character similar to his The Talented Mr. Ripley.