The Dark Knight Nolan Describes TDK Plot as 'Grim.'

[COMPO]

So. How grim do you think TDK will be? What will be the grim points?

 

[raybia]

It´s not funny and it´s not true. It surprises me that anyone who ever read Batman comics is bothered by the notion that he isn´t a total boy scout.

Whats not funny? And what is not true?

Batman has been written at various points in the source material as moral ambigous. His war of crime is to be admired but kind of like Bush and "the war of terrorism", Batman's methods have been questionable at times.

There are countless stories that support this idea.

 

[raybia]

So. How grim do you think TDK will be? What will be the grim points?

I'm hoping "Se7en" grim.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I still havent seen that. Isn't it really gory and disgusting?

 

[Darknightnomis]

Not to mention the fact that in Hush, Batman would have very well killed the Joker if Gordon hadn't arrived on the scene and talked some sense into him. He had already made up his mind to end it then and there. Otherwise, the whole ordeal was about Batman counting the number of ways in which he can kill the Joker, contemplating only on what would be the most painful and deserving end to the clown prince of crime.

I would love to see a scene like that in TDK were Gordan has to stop Batman from killing the Joker but not only that reminding him that's a line we won't cross but if he did he'll lead the charge to bring him in.

 

[Ronny Shade]

The point is that Batman is supposed to wrestle with that line. The train sequence decision wasn't a wrestle. it was a cute logistic excuse.

 

[raybia]

I still havent seen that. Isn't it really gory and disgusting?

There was some scenes like that, but more than anything, it was the overall mood and look of the movie.

There was always a sense of dread throughout the movie, which I think was brilliant on the director's part. No sure how that is done.

Please Ronny, rent this over the weekend. Its a great movie and one that I wish that Nolan would use some elements of.

P.S. He was offered to direct the next Batman movie but declined. Then came Nolan.

 

[ultimatefan]

The point is that Batman is supposed to wrestle with that line. The train sequence decision wasn't a wrestle. it was a cute logistic excuse.

He wrestled with that line through the whole movie. The ending was a culmination of it.

 

[Ronny Shade]

There was some scenes like that, but more than anything, it was the overall mood and look of the movie.

There was always a sense of dread throughout the movie, which I think was brilliant on the director's part. No sure how that is done.

Please Ronny, rent this over the weekend. Its a great movie and one that I wish that Nolan would use some elements of.

P.S. He was offered to direct the next Batman movie but declined. Then came Nolan.

Busy as hell this weekend. I have to make a 4 minute animation I'll try.

I've always though Batman should feel like that. Full of dread. I've actually always thought that Batman needed to be done by a horror movie director, someone who was experienced in creating that kind of mood.

 

[raybia]

It´s not funny and it´s not true. It surprises me that anyone who ever read Batman comics is bothered by the notion that he isn´t a total boy scout.

Oh, I get it. Misunderstanding. I was trying to tell Ero, that "yes" Batman is morally ambigous but that the dialogue he used to be saracastic was terrible.

I disagree with Ero's position.

Sorry about the ambigous response.

 

[Ronny Shade]

He wrestled with that line through the whole movie. The ending was a culmination of it.

Not really. It was pretty much "no! I won't kill" at the monastery (of course right after he says this he kills fake Ra's and a couple dozen ninjas) and "okay! I'll let you die!" at the end. There was no middle. There was no temptation to kill Falcone. Most of this wrestling happened in the beginning and the flashbacks with the whole killing Joe Chill part. The development went into him deciding NOT to kill. Letting Ra's die at the end was contradictory to the character arc.

 

[raybia]

I've always though Batman should feel like that. Full of dread. I've actually always thought that Batman needed to be done by a horror movie director, someone who was experienced in creating that kind of mood.

Oh, I like that idea. That would perfect especially with a villian like Joker.

 

[Nepenthes]

Not really. It was pretty much "no! I won't kill" at the monastery (of course right after he says this he kills fake Ra's and a couple dozen ninjas) and "okay! I'll let you die!" at the end. There was no middle. There was no temptation to kill Falcone. Most of this wrestling happened in the beginning and the flashbacks with the whole killing Joe Chill part. The development went into him deciding NOT to kill. Letting Ra's die at the end was contradictory to the character arc.

See that's what I've been trying to say in half a dozen long-winded posts and you just nailed it two sentences. Blooody hell.

That and he actually submitted to Ra's 'merciless' philosphy. Where Ra's destroys what is ill Batman tries to save it.

 

[ultimatefan]

Not really. It was pretty much "no! I won't kill" at the monastery (of course right after he says this he kills fake Ra's and a couple dozen ninjas) and "okay! I'll let you die!" at the end. There was no middle. There was no temptation to kill Falcone. Most of this wrestling happened in the beginning and the flashbacks with the whole killing Joe Chill part. The development went into him deciding NOT to kill. Letting Ra's die at the end was contradictory to the character arc.

No, he still very much dealt with the violence of his actions, like the wreckage he caused while rescuing Rachel that got questioned by Alfred or when you see Gordon having doubts about him. When he was confronted by Ra´s in the mansion, he realized that murder wasn´t the solution. but limitless compassion doesn´t solve everything either. He risked his life to save Ra´s once and the payoff was being almost killed and having his family house burned to the ground. The continuing problem with your argument is you keep coming back to the notion that he did kill, and he didn´t. To kill and let die is not the same thing.

 

[Ronny Shade]

Batman didn't kill Ra's. I know this. But he didn't save him either. The batman I know from the comics and the batman that would have made thematic sense in that scene would have saved Ra's. THAT's what I'm arguing.


The only time when Batman killed anybody in this movie was when he blew up the monastery. Honestly, I have more beef with that than I do with the train scene.

 

[raybia]

The only time when Batman killed anybody in this movie was when he blew up the monastery. Honestly, I have more beef with that than I do with the train scene.

I think that was an escape attempt that went terribly wrong.

Bruce: Oops! Sorry guys, I just wanted to go home.

 

[Ronny Shade]

yeah

 

[ultimatefan]

Batman didn't kill Ra's. I know this. But he didn't save him either. The batman I know from the comics and the batman that would have made thematic sense in that scene would have saved Ra's. THAT's what I'm arguing.


The only time when Batman killed anybody in this movie was when he blew up the monastery. Honestly, I have more beef with that than I do with the train scene.

Thematically speaking, Bruce is neither Ra´s nor his father, he isn´t a murdering avenger or a completely mellow and peaceful man either, so it makes perfect sense. Batman in the comics has had many moments where he was ambiguous and where he was tempted or even succumbed to some degree to his dark impulses. It´s nothing the movie invented or exactly contradicted. You wouldn´t think Batman would be addicted to a drug and it happened in the LOTDK Venom story. You wouldn´t think he´d do to someone´s mind what he decided to do in Identity Crisis.

 

[Ronny Shade]

I think the movie was thematically weaker because they did this.

 

[raybia]

Batman in the comics has had many moments where he was ambiguous and where he was tempted or even succumbed to some degree to his dark impulses.

Sounds like most people.

 

[Ronny Shade]

"I am not, nor will I ever be 'most people' " -Batman, "Hush"

 

[ultimatefan]

Sounds like most people.

That´s my point, he´s not a saint. He´s not supposed to be.

 

[ultimatefan]

"I am not, nor will I ever be 'most people' " -Batman, "Hush"

He meant it in a different way. In the sense of having a dark side and to some extent indulging it, he is like most people or even more.

 

[COMPO]

Batman didn't kill Ra's. I know this. But he didn't save him either. The batman I know from the comics and the batman that would have made thematic sense in that scene would have saved Ra's. THAT's what I'm arguing.

Ra's was beyond saving though.

 

[raybia]

"I am not, nor will I ever be 'most people' " -Batman, "Hush"

Yeah, but he is referring to people in the DC Universe.

Me and Nolan are referring to people in the real world.