The Dark Knight Nolan Describes TDK Plot as 'Grim.'

COMPO said:
i think its a great idea for Nolan to be using Joker's first appearance. Becasue as you can see it is the Joker everyone whats and hasn't seen. Because not only is Joker more sinister he's a physical match for batman which he lacked in B89.

Absolutely man,

Those panels from Jokers first app are awesome and very creepy.
I like how he starts of as a jewel thief working alone, that’s how it should be done in TDK.
Best of all is how in that story it has Joker as Batman's physical equal.
Tho in the movie, you would obviously wonder how the hell Joker would be hard enough,
or have the fighting skills to go toe to toe w/ Bats.

It might even work and be really cool if they don't even explain how he can,
juts to make him more creepy and alien.
 
well, joker is psychotic and unpredictable so he might you know throw batman on off his his crazy tactics.
 
Yeah, he's mental ok.

I just think its going to be so badass if they go for a really authentic Joker based on his first few comic appearances.
 
Seems a lot of people here are for the idea that Batman should've saved Ra's, but no one seems to care for what would happen afterwards, if he did save Ra's. Once again, how would they prove that Ra's was guilty? When it came to Falcone and his thugs Batman had done his homework and was able to provide ample evidence. When it came to Ra's, however, Batman had less than 20 minutes to realize the details of Ra's plan and stop it from coming to fruition. How seriously could they take a single testimony from Batman? And how likely would it be for Batman to testify? Even if the "corrupt bureaucrats" somehow found Ra's to be guilty and declared him as such, what to do about the League of Shadows which, having infiltrated every level of Gotham's infrastructure, will have a relatively easy time saving their leader? A smart Batman would not let someone like Ra's go, because it would endanger innocents, and he prioritizes their protection more than the protection of criminals.

Maybe some writers should give my Bat-prison idea some serious thought. :P

Ronny Shade said:
No, it's NOT easy. Batman has sworn never to kill. Batman takes promised very seriously. Batman is a protector, not a punisher.
Batman is not stupid.

Batman doesn't want innocents to die or suffer tragedy, which is what happened when his parents got killed. So there's the protector aspect. Again, handing Ra's over to the authorities, after a dangerous attempt at rescuing him from the train (dangerous since Ra's would've fought back at some point), would only result in Ra's getting away with it all, whereafter innocents would be at risk once again. That wouldn't have been a very protective move. Also, is punishing the same as killing to you? I'd say beating up criminals and landing them in jail is a form of punishment.

Also, I'm going by Begins here, not the strict ideal Batman sometimes is very able of upholding in the comics (and again, this wasn't originally part of the character... so, "THE WHOLE POINT"!?).

In Begins, Bruce says that he will not become an executioner. There's a difference between killing someone in the heat of battle and executing someone. Execution takes place after you have captured your enemy. Ra's had not been captured at the end of Begins (for example, Crane was rendered harmless by Batman, who did not kill him, choosing instead to leave him to the police, and evidence was all around the place). It's also worth noting the context in which Bruce said he would not become an executioner. He was told to kill a man of whom he knew nothing, and all he had was the League's word that the man had murdered his neighbour. Remember, Bruce wished for a trial for the man, whereafter Ra's asks "By whom? corrupt bureaucrats?". This elaborates on Bruce's stance. He wants to know the details, and he wants to give people a chance. Knowing this would not be given here, he chose to cause a distraction, hoping this would help the man flee. As a final and important not on this scene, Bruce did not say that he would never kill someone, or never let someone die.

Even though Bruce now viewed "Ducard" as a disillusioned member of a crazy warband, he gave him a chance by saving his life. Later, this turned out to be a bad idea. It was revealed the "Ducard" was actually Ra's al Ghul, and that he was just about to go through with a terrorist attack that would presumably lead to the death and destruction of Gotham and its citizens. Batman tried to talk him out of it, but Ra's was clearly beyond "redemption". So, Batman experienced first-hand how poorly Ra's handled his second chance - his "trial", given to him by Batman. "As a symbol, I can be incorruptible..."

This goes with the more realistic approach to Batman. He gave the villain enough chances, and it did not work out. He did not go Punisher-style on Ra's and shoot him on sight.

(BTW, Ra's was the one that destroyed the controls in the train. Batman was trying to stop the train, not set up a death trap for Ra's.)
 
^ Details about the victim don't matter. 'Giving him chances' don't matter. What happens after dosn't matter. Batman just dosn't let peope die. He dosn't give up hope. He's a stubborn motherf**cker and he sticks to this. And the 'original character of Batman' crap just dosn't cut it.

Also if you'd properly read the past few pages Beezle (^ I'm guessing you havn't) then you'd know it isn't actually about saving Ra's but *trying* to save him. He still has to die because otherwise 'Batman would have to give testimony.'
 
I think the idea could/should have been that Batman tries to save Ra's, and fails. Ra's obviously doesn't want to be saved (Not just physically, but from his ideology). Is that cliche? Yes, but it's a powerful thematic, and something that is found in real life. Which is more powerful? Batman refusing to save Ra's Al Ghul with his badass moment, while Ra's appears to die, or Batman, after going through all Ra's put him through, still wanting to save Ra's Al Ghul's life, and making an emotional appeal to his humanity, but Ra's being so far gone that he won't let Batman save him. That's what Batman is. He fights for the lost causes. His approach to Ra's and other criminals should be symbolic of his approach to Gotham City. Or he wouldn't take them in Arkham. He'd just kill them, or let them die.

I wrote a similar moment into my BATMAN: GENESIS script, way back when. Batman tries to save his former mentor David Cain even after Cain tries to kill him and James Gordon, and Cain says something along the lines of "You and Gotham deserve each other", and causes his own death. Even though Batman's gone all-out to save him.
 
ultimatefan said:
But it wouldn´t have the dubiousness, which was the point of that ending. THAT would be cliché goody good guy stuff, Batman tried to save him but Ra´s brought his terrible destiny on himself...

I don't see what's so dubious about it. He flat out left Ra's to die. It's not like B89 when Batman was holding Jack Napier over the vat of acid, and you wonder whether Batman was trying to save him but lost his grip, or did Batman purposefully lose his grip and let him fall.

The Guard said:
I think the idea could/should have been that Batman tries to save Ra's, and fails. Ra's obviously doesn't want to be saved (Not just physically, but from his ideology). Is that cliche? Yes, but it's a powerful thematic, and something that is found in real life. Which is more powerful? Batman refusing to save Ra's Al Ghul with his badass moment, while Ra's appears to die, or Batman, after going through all Ra's put him through, still wanting to save Ra's Al Ghul's life, and making an emotional appeal to his humanity, but Ra's being so far gone that he won't let Batman save him. That's what Batman is. He fights for the lost causes. His approach to Ra's and other criminals should be symbolic of his approach to Gotham City. Or he wouldn't take them in Arkham. He'd just kill them, or let them die.

:up::up::up::up::up:
 
I... I don't know how to say this but... Ronny is right about everything.
 
The Guard said:
I think the idea could/should have been that Batman tries to save Ra's, and fails. Ra's obviously doesn't want to be saved (Not just physically, but from his ideology). Is that cliche? Yes, but it's a powerful thematic, and something that is found in real life. Which is more powerful? Batman refusing to save Ra's Al Ghul with his badass moment, while Ra's appears to die, or Batman, after going through all Ra's put him through, still wanting to save Ra's Al Ghul's life, and making an emotional appeal to his humanity, but Ra's being so far gone that he won't let Batman save him. That's what Batman is. He fights for the lost causes. His approach to Ra's and other criminals should be symbolic of his approach to Gotham City. Or he wouldn't take them in Arkham. He'd just kill them, or let them die.

I wrote a similar moment into my BATMAN: GENESIS script, way back when. Batman tries to save his former mentor David Cain even after Cain tries to kill him and James Gordon, and Cain says something along the lines of "You and Gotham deserve each other", and causes his own death. Even though Batman's gone all-out to save him.
I don´t see anything powerful about it. It´s cliché, obvious, and bland. The hero tires to save the villain, the villain is beyond being saved. Done a kagillion times. Batman not killing doesn´t come necessarily from him believing in criminals being lost causes worth fighting for, but from not willing to be one of them, which actually reinforces his hatred of them.
 
El Payaso said:
I... I don't know how to say this but... Ronny is right about everything.
If you chose to think so, I guess. There are tons of arguments against everything he said. Truckloads of them.
 
The Sage said:
I don't see what's so dubious about it. He flat out left Ra's to die. It's not like B89 when Batman was holding Jack Napier over the vat of acid, and you wonder whether Batman was trying to save him but lost his grip, or did Batman purposefully lose his grip and let him fall.



:up::up::up::up::up:
Dubious in the sense that, could he have saved Ra´s if he wanted to? Did he leave him to die just not to take an extra risk or there was a bit of revenge in that act? It´s a bit open to interpretation, yes.
 
oh, jesus this argument is going to drag.
 
ultimatefan said:
If you chose to think so, I guess. There are tons of arguments against everything he said. Truckloads of them.

Same with yours. Big deal. :o
 
Let's Just End This Argument And Say That You're Both Right!
 
Let's just say we have had this exactly same discussion with the exactly same arguments 4 times so far.

But in threads where the subject was the main topic.
 
El Payaso said:
Let's just say we have had this exactly same discussion with the exactly same arguments 4 times so far.

But in threads where the subject was the main topic.
I agree with one thing. This argument is tired as hell. Who hated Nolan´s decision, don´t buy the DVD or don´t pay the ticket to see TDK - yeah, right...
 
Okay. So we're in an agreement. I don't know what that agreement is but, at least we have one. Don't we?
 
ultimatefan said:
I agree with one thing. This argument is tired as hell. Who hated Nolan´s decision, don´t buy the DVD or don´t pay the ticket to see TDK - yeah, right...
Uh.. nope, I'm still buying the dvd and the ticket. Flaws don't scare me that much.
 
actually, this might be good for batman's development because we'll see him feel guilty for leaving Ra's there and not trying to save him. Which would be different from the other films because in them Batman didn't give a **** if he killed Joker and penguin.

Maybe, not so much catwoman. But, come on people it was michelle pfiefer in a cat suit that give any man teh ****s they saw her get electricuted.
 
COMPO said:
actually, this might be good for batman's development because we'll see him feel guilty for leaving Ra's there and not trying to save him. Which would be different from the other films because in them Batman didn't give a **** if he killed Joker and penguin.

So far Batman has remained not giving **** for his enemies' deaths in both franchises. One reference to Ra's death at the end of BB and I could have dug it.
 
COMPO said:
actually, this might be good for batman's development because we'll see him feel guilty for leaving Ra's there and not trying to save him. Which would be different from the other films because in them Batman didn't give a **** if he killed Joker and penguin.
I actually think that would be a good idea - as Alfred said, you can't make it personal and it WAS personal, whether you think it was justified or not.

Also, I wouldn't mind seeing the Joker use that as something to throw in Batman's face. Something to prove he's no different than the people he fights. There really should be some sort of repercussion, even if it's relatively minor.
 
what if the people who are rebuilding the monorail find Ra's body. And the papers get wind of it and they know taht Btaman stopped the train and they think that Btaman killed the man and the mayor wants Batman arrested.
 
COMPO said:
actually, this might be good for batman's development because we'll see him feel guilty for leaving Ra's there and not trying to save him.
Exactly, that's the only saving grace for this ending imo...on the account they go back to it later on and have a more "refined" Bruce reflect on his past actions.

Which would be different from the other films because in them Batman didn't give a **** if he killed Joker and penguin.
This is what I'd fear most. If they choose to leave the BB ending, then rest assured there will be some comparisons to Burton's take on a ruthless Batman.
 
Thanks for commenting on my post. Realling appreciated. What did you think of my other idea?

COMPO said:
what if the people who are rebuilding the monorail find Ra's body. And the papers get wind of it and they know taht Btaman stopped the train and they think that Btaman killed the man and the mayor wants Batman arrested.
 

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