Justice League Nothing is Perfect - What you didn’t like about the Snyder Cut

I still believe that MM's final scene should have been with Superman. Given their history and identical backgrounds (e.g. being the last survivor from their home planet), it makes more sense for MM to reveal himself to Superman and not Bruce Wayne.

It's just one of many moments in this film that shows who Snyder prefers between Batman and Superman.

The scene was supposed to be John Stewart. Snyder filmed the scene with Affleck back around 2016 on the actual set but didn't get to film the actor playing John Stewart talking to Affleck in this scene until this past year (he filmed it out in his driveway to digitally add later).

WB though wouldn't let Snyder put Green Lantern in the film per Snyder so he had to refilm with Martian Manhunter instead.
 
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I still believe that MM's final scene should have been with Superman. Given their history and identical backgrounds (e.g. being the last survivor from their home planet), it makes more sense for MM to reveal himself to Superman and not Bruce Wayne.

It's just one of many moments in this film that shows who Snyder prefers between Batman and Superman.

MM should not have been in the film at all. His inclusion in the Martha/Lois scene totally ruins that moment between them. Utterly pointless fan baiting.
 
i just hate how visually dark the whole film is. At a point i thought we didint have any daytime scenes. why do all the characters look pale. the sun barley shines in ZS movies so it kind of made sense that people will be pale in his world.

Flash saving Iris was just too creepy for me

MM was shoed in

Mera accent was funny, i think that why it didnt bother me so much

Superman just doesnt feel like a part of the movie.

Flash suit is just terrible. worst superhero suit imo. i had such high hope. ZS did great with superman, batman and WW, even aquaman, cyborg less so but flash suit is the definition of ugly to me.
 
Remember when Snyder revealed that film slate a while back that he awarded to the poster contest winner? The verbiage on that slate said that the additional scene was going to have “Batman, Superman, MM and Lois.” I think originally Snyder wanted the end coda to be with MM meeting Bruce and Clark but obviously couldn't get Henry and Adams back for additional photgraphy.
 
Ben Affleck may not be enthused about doing Superhero roles but he has shown he wants to do things right and make a good film. He showed up for the reshoots despite being done with the character cause he supports Snyder's vision. Anything associated with that version he will only have handled strictly by Zach it seems fair to say.

The MM scene with Lois I think needed to be setup more and it would've worked better. It was the only point to insert MM into the movie without having access to reshoots and past sets it seems. I saw it as a fun wink to the fans knowing this likely is going to have no sequel. MM is like a nicer version of a Men in Black archetypical agent within the government instead acting as a sort of benevolent overseer I took it as Snyder's approach to the character.

He uses his powers to do good within governments and institutions I think makes him an interesting character with areas to mine.
 
This is not the same Wonder Woman we saw from Patty Jenkins' WW84.
At least here she's not carefree rapist who takes advantage of someone who lost control over his body (and the perspective of him staying that way forever also doesn't seem to bother her at all).

And what I dont like? Nothing I couldn't fix:

- Martha Manhunter scene
- everything after shirt rip
- aspect ratio... not that I dont like it, cause it's still more interesting than theatrical 1.78:1, but I'd prefer to have AR-consistent trilogy.
 
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Ben Affleck may not be enthused about doing Superhero roles but he has shown he wants to do things right and make a good film. He showed up for the reshoots despite being done with the character cause he supports Snyder's vision. Anything associated with that version he will only have handled strictly by Zach it seems fair to say.

The MM scene with Lois I think needed to be setup more and it would've worked better. It was the only point to insert MM into the movie without having access to reshoots and past sets it seems. I saw it as a fun wink to the fans knowing this likely is going to have no sequel. MM is like a nicer version of a Men in Black archetypical agent within the government instead acting as a sort of benevolent overseer I took it as Snyder's approach to the character.

He uses his powers to do good within governments and institutions I think makes him an interesting character with areas to mine.

They had Martian Manhunter at the end of the movie though in the scene with Bruce Wayne. That would've been enough instead of turning Lois into MM for that scene.
 
I think really I only have like 3 issues with with movie:

1 - Martian Manhunter - The idea of him being in the background since MoS is great. But the execution was awful. The scene where Martha turns into him just renders the prior scene of Martha and Lois talking about their shared grief meaningless. Then we don't see him again until the end scene where is comes in and is like "I know I didn't do Jack in this movie....but I promise I will be in sequels!" The Green Lantern idea would have worked fine since Darkseid is coming to Earth, and the GL's as a cosmic force can alert Baan to this. But changing that scene to MM didn't work.

2 - Joker Scene - The scene is weird. They declare they have to keep moving, but everyone is just okay with Batman having a like 10 minute talk with the Joker. Seriously, they say moving is urgent, but no one has any actual urgency to keep moving. I get the scene is more proof of concept for sequels, but as a scene it doesn't work for me.

3 - Darkseid's Forgetfulness - So he finds Anti-Life...but forgets it was on the one planet that defeated him? The one he should most remember? I think him not coming back himself is fine as Apokolips is the sort of place where he prob has like 100 possible usurper on a daily basis so he has to keep everyone in line. But Darkseid not remembering likely his greatest defeat and being close to everything he ever wanted is....weird.

Other than these, I liked the a lot. I kind of consider the movie over for myself after Cyborg's dad finishes his narration in the Epilogue. Works better for me. It doesn't fix the Darkseid thing or the stupid Martha was MM thing. But I think it works better as a film to end it there
 
I think really I only have like 3 issues with with movie:

1 - Martian Manhunter - The idea of him being in the background since MoS is great. But the execution was awful. The scene where Martha turns into him just renders the prior scene of Martha and Lois talking about their shared grief meaningless. Then we don't see him again until the end scene where is comes in and is like "I know I didn't do Jack in this movie....but I promise I will be in sequels!" The Green Lantern idea would have worked fine since Darkseid is coming to Earth, and the GL's as a cosmic force can alert Baan to this. But changing that scene to MM didn't work.

2 - Joker Scene - The scene is weird. They declare they have to keep moving, but everyone is just okay with Batman having a like 10 minute talk with the Joker. Seriously, they say moving is urgent, but no one has any actual urgency to keep moving. I get the scene is more proof of concept for sequels, but as a scene it doesn't work for me.

3 - Darkseid's Forgetfulness - So he finds Anti-Life...but forgets it was on the one planet that defeated him? The one he should most remember? I think him not coming back himself is fine as Apokolips is the sort of place where he prob has like 100 possible usurper on a daily basis so he has to keep everyone in line. But Darkseid not remembering likely his greatest defeat and being close to everything he ever wanted is....weird.

Other than these, I liked the a lot. I kind of consider the movie over for myself after Cyborg's dad finishes his narration in the Epilogue. Works better for me. It doesn't fix the Darkseid thing or the stupid Martha was MM thing. But I think it works better as a film to end it there

WW said that once the mother boxes went to sleep it made the whole planet unseen by the enemy. Becoming the lost planet where Darkseid has been obsessed in finding conquering countless planets just to get the Anti Life Equation.

The one I questioned before was once Steppenwolf found the mother boxes then All of them including Darkseid would have have an AHA moment knowing it’s the lost planet. But instead, Steppenwolf had to convince Desaad that it was the lost planet after the Mother Box told him.

The only answer I can think of is that they have multiple Mother Boxes....3 for each planets they conquered. They have probably sent out Mother Boxes throughout the universe and wait for them to call out if it’s perfect or worth to conquer.

So once these Mother Boxes called....it was just routine...thinking it’s just one of the planets where they sent out the Mother Boxes until Steppenwolf was told it was the lost planet after all.
 
WW said that once the mother boxes went to sleep it made the whole planet unseen by the enemy. Becoming the lost planet where Darkseid has been obsessed in finding conquering countless planets just to get the Anti Life Equation.

The one I questioned before was once Steppenwolf found the mother boxes then All of them including Darkseid would have have an AHA moment knowing it’s the lost planet. But instead, Steppenwolf had to convince Desaad that it was the lost planet after the Mother Box told him.

The only answer I can think of is that they have multiple Mother Boxes....3 for each planets they conquered. They have probably sent out Mother Boxes throughout the universe and wait for them to call out if it’s perfect or worth to conquer.

So once these Mother Boxes called....it was just routine...thinking it’s just one of the planets where they sent out the Mother Boxes until Steppenwolf was told it was the lost planet after all.

The movie doesn't really make any of this clear though. It does a good job at explaining what the mother boxes do and all that. But this whole bit about the lost planet and such is not nearly as well explained. Zack I don't think has helped in further explanation when he says things like Darkseid is thousands of years old and that you forget stuff over time.
 
The movie doesn't really make any of this clear though. It does a good job at explaining what the mother boxes do and all that. But this whole bit about the lost planet and such is not nearly as well explained. Zack I don't think has helped in further explanation when he says things like Darkseid is thousands of years old and that you forget stuff over time.

He said that???!!!

Dam Zack!!! You can’t even think of a plot hole closer...I have to make one for you!! ‍♀️
 
He said that???!!!

Dam Zack!!! You can’t even think of a plot hole closer...I have to make one for you!! ‍♀️

The exact quote:

Snyder explained the villain's apparent forgetfulness on Vero: "He almost died when he returned to [Apokolips, Darkseid's planet] he was in a fight for power and much time passed before he was in a position of power again and by then all who had been with him had been Slayed."
 
He said that???!!!

Dam Zack!!! You can’t even think of a plot hole closer...I have to make one for you!! ‍♀️

Since a number of folks have mentioned this “plot hole,” it appears that Diana’s voice-over exposition was either insufficient or unconvincing.

I confess I didn’t even notice this hole until it was pointed out. Indeed, I often zone out when the villain is explaining his Evil Scheme™. So, personally, I didn’t need clarity on the matter. :word:
 
The exact quote:

Snyder explained the villain's apparent forgetfulness on Vero: "He almost died when he returned to [Apokolips, Darkseid's planet] he was in a fight for power and much time passed before he was in a position of power again and by then all who had been with him had been Slayed."

Urgh, from all the **** ups Snyder did...how he butchered Darkseid pisses me off the most.
I can deal with his Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman etc because they either have or will get stuff in the close future that shows more what the characters really are about.

But Darkseid, we will only get him in 5-6 years or so if things go right.
I doubt we get a Solo movie that has him in as the big bad or so, which means the next team up if it ever happens, might have him.
Until then we are stuck with people remembering a one dimensional loser villian that was so dumb that he forgot the one planet he lost on.

Snyder had 4 damn hours and instead of telling the viewer anything of substance about Darkseid or that this isnt THE Darkseid yet, he rather wasted time on the Wiener scene of Barry and pointless Themyscira Slow Mo.
 
They had Martian Manhunter at the end of the movie though in the scene with Bruce Wayne. That would've been enough instead of turning Lois into MM for that scene.

I would've preferred the Green Lantern for the end scene though but still wanted to see MM. I agree the change from Martha didn't fit well since it was forcefully inserted. I think MM in the hallway disguised as the General having just visited Lois then passing by Martha as she enters the building changing back to MM and flying off before Martha's conversation with Lois would've worked better.
 
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The real reason Darkseid forgot is time. The real question is why he didn't return during this wide expanse of time before the JL even existed. He had some rebellion and during this timeframe of dealing with this rebellion lost the coordinates of earth's location. There I provided my own explanation that works. Snyder needs to say that and voila problem solved somewhat. This is another instance of holes in story coming up in post prod. and needing to have some additional narration perhaps against a backdrop of a wartorn homeplanet of Darkseid.
 
The real reason Darkseid forgot is time. The real question is why he didn't return during this wide expanse of time before the JL even existed. He had some rebellion and during this timeframe of dealing with this rebellion lost the coordinates of earth's location. There I provided my own explanation that works. Snyder needs to say that and voila problem solved somewhat. This is another instance of holes in story coming up in post prod. and needing to have some additional narration perhaps against a backdrop of a wartorn homeplanet of Darkseid.

Darkseid is a new God...a being that exists beyond normal time and space.
There is not enough Time in the universe for Darkseid to forget his one and only defeat.

The whole Darkseid plot is a car crash done by a guy who just wanted to be the cool guy who does a live action Darkseid first.
He couldnt be bothered to explain anything but the absolut basics and then had the audacity to go on twitter and tell his backstory etc there as if its not a big deal.

4 hours and a ton of dumb scenes, but he couldnt spare 5-10 minutes to at least try and do Darkseid justice.
 
Darkseid is a new God...a being that exists beyond normal time and space.
There is not enough Time in the universe for Darkseid to forget his one and only defeat.

If all depictions of him in the comic have him existing beyond normal time and space then the question why he didn't conquer earth in the long timeframe before the Justice League came along too then. So that would leave 1 more discrepancy.

He is in a search for lost coordinates from the rebellion would still work though regardless of faded memory or not since he is sending Steppenwolf all over trying to find Antilife so there seems to be some more backstory that wasn't able to be explored.

Zach gave a bad explanation on twitter. Somebody needs to ask Terrio about this in the original script.


The whole Darkseid plot is a car crash done by a guy who just wanted to be the cool guy who does a live action Darkseid first.
He couldnt be bothered to explain anything but the absolut basics and then had the audacity to go on twitter and tell his backstory etc there as if its not a big deal.

4 hours and a ton of dumb scenes, but he couldnt spare 5-10 minutes to at least try and do Darkseid justice.

I think BvS had just left theaters (or even still in with some) when production began on JL. Terrio's script involving Darkseid was a bit more dense per snyder. I do think holes appear no doubt but if Snyder had done reshoots instead of whedon he still wouldn't have patched them up.

I want to see the original Terrio script before shooting started. I wish someone would ask him to post this instead.
 
I still think all the Knightmare/Future Timeline stuff is really bad... Some cool visuals, but just none of it works for me... Ezra Miller is still an atrocious Flash, just plain horrible, even with the slight improvement over the Whedon cut version.

That said, the Snyder cut is definitely an improvement and I'm gonna miss Henry Cavill as Superman. I don't care what anyone says, I think he was very good in the role. Not the greatest writing for the character, but he did great with what he was given and had the potential to be an amazing Superman.
 
...since [Darkseid] is sending Steppenwolf all over trying to find Antilife so there seems to be some more backstory that wasn't able to be explored.

...Somebody needs to ask Terrio about this in the original script.

Diana’s narration (as previously noted):

“The three Mother Boxes never synchronized. The Unity never came to pass. But in their retreat, the Boxes were left behind on Earth. They grew weak. Dogs without masters. Falling asleep, awaiting their return. Fading from the view of the enemy, anonymous among a trillion worlds.”

Ostensibly, this answers why the villains lost track of their various spoils. According to some, however, this explanation is insufficient; a better-crafted movie would have given us a more complete and airtight backstory on the Boxes and the Anti-Life Equation. Well, maybe…

But I think this raises a more general question about the technicalities of writing fiction. When confronted with a plot hole (big or small, real or alleged), to what extent should the writer try to address it? Now, conventional wisdom says that if the hole is major, distracting or otherwise “takes the audience out of the moment,” it should be filled. But then there are cases of so-called “fridge logic” plot holes — an error/discrepancy that only occurs to the viewer later on. And such a delayed realization means, by definition, that the aforementioned “moment” wasn’t affected. Therefore, it wasn’t really that important…?

Additionally, there’s a kind of cost-benefit calculation that must be considered. Granted, exposition can often fix a problem. But detailed exposition takes time and may affect the narrative flow. And is it really worth the effort if most of the audience a) didn’t notice the problem in the first place, b) were content with the “lip service” explanation provided or c) were satisfied that some likely/plausible explanation could be inferred and didn’t need to be spelled out?

Finally… There’s the question posed by several internet articles and videos: do plot holes even matter? The Big Sleep has a rather famous goof — which the filmmakers were fully aware of. Indeed, during production Howard Hawks asked Raymond Chandler to resolve the matter. But Chandler was stymied; he hadn’t noticed that his own novel contained the same goof. And yet, The Big Sleep is an acknowledged and beloved classic.

Or how about this conundrum?


main-qimg-14a97edaf66ab344598af82ecc88afb5.gif



Ultimately, I think our first response to a movie is at an instinctive, emotional level. The analysis comes later. So if we like a movie, its plot holes (within limits) are deemed minor flaws: forgivable sins, not deal breakers. OTOH, if we dislike a movie, we might well cite a plot hole as one of the reasons why. But this is rhetorically risky — inasmuch as we must apply the same standard to every movie. Which could be problematic if you happen to think highly of (for example) The Big Sleep or The Empire Strikes Back.

Bottom line: plot holes (whether actual or claimed) can be fun to recognize and dissect. I’ve done this many times. :cwink: But their relevance to the overall quality of a movie is… debatable.
 
I think a good explanation could have been magic...

We know the old gods have the ability to cloak Themyscira, just apply that to Earth as a whole. Coupled with the inter dimensional travel required to get from Apokolips to Earth, it’s feasible that Earth could be lost to Darkseid for all those years.
 
I still believe that MM's final scene should have been with Superman. Given their history and identical backgrounds (e.g. being the last survivor from their home planet), it makes more sense for MM to reveal himself to Superman and not Bruce Wayne.

It's just one of many moments in this film that shows who Snyder prefers between Batman and Superman.
MM debuted in Detective Comics, I think it was appropriate. I love the Batman/MM dynamic in The Batman (2004) and The New Frontier. And would have loved to see more.


It honestly would’ve been narratively out of place, but that Martian Manhunter scene would’ve been cooler if Bruce mentioned that he was already aware of J’onzz and said something like ‘We need all the help we can get.. but make no mistake. I’ve been aware of you for quite some time. I’ve got an 86 million dollar piece of meteor for the Kryptonian. But for you, all I need is a nickel for a book of matches.” I can seriously just hear Affleck nailing the delivery of that line with that energy he had in the Clark/Bruce scene at Lex’s party in BVS

It could’ve setup a Tower of Babel type storyline. It didn’t seem like Snyder was too interested in that story, instead option for a combination of Rock of Ages and Injustice.
 
Eh, I’m cool with just copping to Darkseid thing up as a plot hole plain and simple. It happens sometimes. Even TDK had plot holes that dont make a lot of sense in retrospect. Its all about if the plot hole takes you out of the movie or not.
 
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Eh, I’m cool with just copping to Darkseid thing up as a plot hole plain and simple. It happens sometimes. Even TDK had plot holes that dont make a lot of sense in retrospect. Its all about if the plot hole takes you out of the movie or not.

Plot holes are fine but when they make your Big Bad look incompetent it becomes frustrating.

Imagine Darth Vader forgetting the location of the 1 planet that the entire plot revolves around? Its lazy writing.
 
Plot holes are fine but when they make your Big Bad look incompetent it becomes frustrating.

Imagine Darth Vader forgetting the location of the 1 planet that the entire plot revolves around? Its lazy writing.

Playful sarcasm? After all, hiding Luke from Vader on Tatooine (!) — under the name Skywalker (!) — is a bit of a head-scratcher. Granted, there are several ways to (as the kids say) “fanwank” an explanation. But then likewise for Darkseid…?
 

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