Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - Part 4

[TruerToTheCore]

That happened off panel

When the real Mad Hatter returned he said he had killed the impostor who had been calling himself the Mad Hatter

He was probably lying

 

[Mystirious]

I can't stand her as a ****e but there's always been a BDSM element to her character. Not as completely kinky and insane as Wonder Woman but it has always been there.

That's one of the reasons i Catwoman. The whip and the leather

So i really dig that she used to be a dominatrix and that she is into bdsm

I used to have a relevant Morrison quote in my sig. He basically said that he thought that Batman was turned into a thug with very primal insticts and morals and he thought that he thought of him as a rennaissance man, as a man of zen, a genius, a man who's traveled the world and seen everything and has done anything. That man shouldnt be a glorified Rorshach and he thought he needed to bring him back to that.

I completely agree with Morrison about that

I love how he has been writing Batman so far cannit wait to see more of it

 

[TruerToTheCore]

It was not as blatant a reboot as MOS, but Year One was a reboot still. Unlike with Superman, the Earth-One Batman's continuity was pretty much the same as the Earth-Two versions and came from the Golden Age comics. So with the Earth-One Batman, [...]

I am well aware of these changes, but back in the day it never felt like "my" Batman was gone. When Batman ran into Two-Face they still had their old history with each other (at least so it seemed) and so on, just as time went on they were retconning more and more of the old stuff. The changes came more with time, it wasn't like Superman when everything was gone.

 

[Mystirious]

He was probably lying

Dat wacky Mad Hatter

Has he been in any Batman comic books recently

 

[Kurosawa]

I am well aware of these changes, but back in the day it never felt like "my" Batman was gone. When Batman ran into Two-Face they still had their old history with each other (at least so it seemed) and so on, just as time went on they were retconning more and more of the old stuff. The changes came more with time, it wasn't like Superman when everything was gone.

Yeah, it was nowhere near as horrific as what they did to Superman. It was a different Batman, but it was still Batman. And that's why Batman has grown and flourished as a character and as a series since then-because although they did retcon it, they didn't go away from the principles that Finger and Kane founded the character on. Superman, meanwhile, was turned completely around from what Siegel and Shuster intended and has since faded into relative obscurity and near Captain Marvel levels of irrelevance.

 

[CConn]

Personally, I think Batman is anything and everything. I like the Batman that walked around in broad daylight waving hello to old ladies on the street in the 70s. At the same time, I can see the appeal for Miller's darker Batman. Especially in TDKR...his motivation and characterization made sense.

The only thing I really don't like is when an entire decade of Batman stories all have to be told in the same way, with the same approach...and that's kind of what happened with Millar's interpretation. Every fell so in love with in, no one really looked at other ways to characterize Batman...until Morrison.

 

[Kurosawa]

Personally, I think Batman is anything and everything. I like the Batman that walked around in broad daylight waving hello to old ladies on the street in the 70s. At the same time, I can see the appeal for Miller's darker Batman. Especially in TDKR...his motivation and characterization made sense.

The only thing I really don't like is when an entire decade of Batman stories all have to be told in the same way, with the same approach...and that's kind of what happened with Millar's interpretation. Every fell so in love with in, no one really looked at other ways to characterize Batman...until Morrison.

Morrison's Batman is really something. He might be my second favorite Batman writer behind Bill Finger. I'm not sure if I can rank him over Denny O'Neil or not, but it's as close as it can be to me. That is if I exempt Alan Brennert since he's only written like 12 comics stories, most of which are classics.

 

[CConn]

You always know of the most random and odd comic book writers...

Denny will always be my favorite.

 

[Kurosawa]

You always know of the most random and odd comic book writers...

Denny will always be my favorite.

Right now I prob rank 'em:

1. Bill Finger
2. Denny O'Neil
3. Grant Morrison
4. Alan Grant
5. David Vern/David V. Reed (even though he was kind of a prick).

Not counting Alan Brennert since I kinda give him an incomplete. Counting him, he's my #2.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Was Finger really that good? I thought he was more of a hack.

 

[Kurosawa]

Was Finger really that good? I thought he was more of a hack.

Finger wasn't a hack, he was actually really bad to be late with his stories. Some writers just naturally pump stuff out with raw talent, other writers are more like craftsmen and that's the kind of writer Finger was. A lot of his stories followed real crime reports and police methods of the time, and he also liked to put diagrams and such into stories. With a lot of his stories he would include photographs for artists reference, like the famous Conrad Veidt photo from the 1928 silent classic The Man Who Laughs for a guide of how the Joker should appear:

He also tackled some heavier issues in a time when they supposedly didn't exist, such as this story where a hood has discovered Batman's secret identity:

And of course he was famous for the giant objects motif, most famously the Giant Penny:

What Finger was, however, as a very bad alcoholic. Years of working in obscurity while Kane became extremely wealthy off of Batman was too much for him. Even though he contributed much more to Batman than Kane ever did, and even though he co-created other great characters like Green Lantern and Wildcat, Finger had financial issues his entire life. He was out of comics by the late 60's and dead by 1974.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Ah, man, I didn't know a lot of that. It makes it even sadder that Finger isn't recognized properly with the Batman mythos.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Oh crap, my bad Kurosawa. I meant Bob Kane. Damn i need to go to sleep!

 

[Mr. Earle]

Finger wasn't a hack, he was actually really bad to be late with his stories. Some writers just naturally pump stuff out with raw talent, other writers are more like craftsmen and that's the kind of writer Finger was. A lot of his stories followed real crime reports and police methods of the time, and he also liked to put diagrams and such into stories. With a lot of his stories he would include photographs for artists reference, like the famous Conrad Veidt photo from the 1928 silent classic The Man Who Laughs for a guide of how the Joker should appear:

He also tackled some heavier issues in a time when they supposedly didn't exist, such as this story where a hood has discovered Batman's secret identity:

Spoiler

And of course he was famous for the giant objects motif, most famously the Giant Penny:

What Finger was, however, as a very bad alcoholic. Years of working in obscurity while Kane became extremely wealthy off of Batman was too much for him. Even though he contributed much more to Batman than Kane ever did, and even though he co-created other great characters like Green Lantern and Wildcat, Finger had financial issues his entire life. He was out of comics by the late 60's and dead by 1974.

Its such a pity that Kane robbed him and Finger didnt get what he deserved. Thank you for all the info!!!

 

[Kurosawa]

Its such a pity that Kane robbed him and Finger didnt get what he deserved. Thank you for all the info!!!

Yep.

Kane was a real *****e. People try to compare him to Stan but Stan was never the crook Kane was. Stan wrote thousands of stories of all genres. Stan actually says he was a hack until the 60's, but he was still doing the work. Kane got really rich off of Finger's ideas while contributing very little himself after 1943 or so. Then he got an even bigger payday out of National when he finked out Siegel and Shuster in 47.

 

[The Batman]

kuro, by any chance, do you know how bill finger died?? I was curious since he was only 60.

 

[Saint]

I would certainly rank Morrison high on my list; I think the way he incorporated any continuity he could into his story, creating a timeline where the pulp stories, the sixties adventures, and the darker edge of the character all fit and make sense is completely brilliant. He balances the character incredibly well.

One of my favourite interpretations of Batman actually came from Greg Rucka's novelization of No Man's Land. I think Rucka, more so than a lot of writers, has a grasp on the personality of Gotham and the people inside it. Everyone feels right in a Greg Rucka story.

 

[Kurosawa]

kuro, by any chance, do you know how bill finger died?? I was curious since he was only 60.

I'm not sure, but author Marc Tyler Nobleman has been doing research for years now and has a book about Finger's life coming out in 2012. All I've ever heard is Finger died after years of struggling with poverty and alcoholism.

DC reacted to his death initially in a respectful manner:

But the next year, DC ran a very mean-spirited story parodying Finger's tendencies to be late with scripts due to so much research and to ask for pay advances:

This very cruel story written after the man had died was written by 50's Batman writer David Vern, a.k.a. David V. Reed, and although he was a heck of a good Batman writer, this story pisses me off. Longtime Aquaman and Metamorpho artist Ramona Fradon drew it, but she never hung out in the DC offices and didn't know the cliques around there, so she had no idea the story was a mean spirited shot at Finger.

 

[Drz]

I'm always urged to read Strikes Again just to see how bad it is... But I can never bring myself to do it.

It's really only bad when it comes to the coloring, but the book has tons of good character moments, big ideas and Batman being Batman againts the government which we only saw very little of in TDKR. It also has alot of that parody thing going off which put the mood off for some, but some dig it. I like how it's all connected (despite some minor continuity errors) such as Hal Jordan talking how all heroes are more or less criminals because they have to break the law and take over corrupt goverments (as Hal safes the entire world from Lex Luthor's missiles) while Hal Jordan never at first agreed with the criminal part when they first met, which happens in All Star Batman and Robin.

Frank Miller is easily the most overrated Batman writer of all time...

Overrated to the max, but still a very good Batman writer nonetheless, surely on the top 10, maybe top 5 but definatly not top 3.

I can't stand her as a ****e but there's always been a BDSM element to her character. Not as completely kinky and insane as Wonder Woman but it has always been there.

She was never a ****e.

Right now I prob rank 'em:

1. Bill Finger
2. Denny O'Neil
3. Grant Morrison
4. Alan Grant
5. David Vern/David V. Reed (even though he was kind of a prick).

Not counting Alan Brennert since I kinda give him an incomplete. Counting him, he's my #2.

Bolded my top 3, i need to check out Batman Chronicles volume 1 someday.

Ah, man, I didn't know a lot of that. It makes it even sadder that Finger isn't recognized properly with the Batman mythos.

Yeha, i heard they wanted to give credit in Batman: Gotham Knights dvd but the Kane family was againts it, tho i just read that off some forum so might be ******** i was reading, not sure.

 

[Mr. Earle]

This is beautiful.

 

[TruerToTheCore]

That is if I exempt Alan Brennert since he's only written like 12 comics stories, most of which are classics.

Yeah, makes you wonder sometimes how comics would be different if certain writers would have released more stuff.

"To Kill A Legend", "Time, See What's Become Of Me", "Interlude on Earth-Two" and "The Autobiography of Bruce Wayne" are some of my favorite Batman stories.

But the next year, DC ran a very mean-spirited story parodying Finger's tendencies to be late with scripts due to so much research and to ask for pay advances[...]

Well, ironically that could be applied to any modern writer, except that they don't even try to excuse being late and don't do any research

 

[The Caped Knight]

Batman: Arkham City #2 Exclusive Preview

 

[Mystirious]

Ah, man, I didn't know a lot of that. It makes it even sadder that Finger isn't recognized properly with the Batman mythos.

Agreed it is very sad its horrible that it happened to such a good writer and that he didnt get the credit he deserved

But the next year, DC ran a very mean-spirited story parodying Finger's tendencies to be late with scripts due to so much research and to ask for pay advances:

What is this I don't even

What a tasteless and cruel story to print especially only a year after he was dead. It's not funny and it is just nasty and cruel

 

[yenaled]

I didn't know Bill Finger. He may have found that funny.

 

[antsman41]

Top 5 Batman (universe) writers;

1. Greg Rucka
2. Denny O'Neil
3. Frank Miller
4. Ed Brubaker
5. Jim Starlin
----------------
Honorable Mention
- Chuck Dixon