Official Batman Titles thread 2.0 - Part 4

[Saint]

So Damian didn't try to kill Tim because Tim survived? You are aware of what the word "try" means, right?

It's really a matter of intent. If Damian didn't think his action would put Tim in mortal danger, then no, he didn't try to kill him. Not exactly an air-tight legal defense, but we're talking about superheroes who jump off buildings all the time. Not to say it isn't wreckless, of course.

It doesn't matter either way; it's Niceiza, who is more concerned with boosting Tim than writing other characters properly (or even decent stories), so a stupid moment in his book doesn't surprise me.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

Fair enough; I suppose you get that from having read plenty of other Damian stuff in Batman & Robin and various other comics. I haven't read any of those, though, and that scene as presented seems to indicate that Damian wanted to see Tim go splat. Seems like the Bat-office needs to decide definitively what kind of characterization they're trying to put forth for Damian, more than anything else.

 

[Drz]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....59731749143.65878.55919364143&type=1&theater

Yo, Neal here.
What the heck is happening with Batman Odyssey?
DC tells us the solicitations have begun for the last 7 monthly issues.
Your stores have not been reacting to your enthusiasm, but rather, they have been reacting to the internet chatter. Chatter that I.... perhaps should have responded to.
Now it's all verblunget and you guys are the ones who are losing out, and I am sorry.
The continuing series is just great! It's exciting and dramatic with neanderthals, evolved dinosaurs, magicians, war, death, gnomes, trolls and tests, the like of which Batman, the modern Ulysses has never faced in his life... all happening in a real underworld.
The multiple climaxes are killer. But if you care.... Man, I hate to say this... you've got to hoc your stores like bloody hell to get these issues.
My promise to you is to give you the best, most exciting comic books ever. I've never failed you, and I never will. But this time, you've got to dig in and demand your stores get this. The best Batman series ever.

A note: You notice Marvel is actually promoting my work for them? Avengers and the "Secret Project?" You'll notice Dark Horse is promoting Blood? Well, for some reason, DC isn't promoting "Batman Odyssey." So.... it's up to you and me, guys and gals.
Best
Neal Adams

Sensei's got quite the death trap for Brucie. October aint that far!

 

[Saint]

Damian is tricky because, unlike pretty much every member of the core batfamily, he isn't inherently selfless. This is also what makes him interesting.

Dick, Tim, Barbara, they're all inherent humanitarians, they know what's important in the world and they'll give themselves up to protect it. Even Jason, for his flaws, is more concerned with fighting crime than his own well being (though he needs to learn to care about people again).

Damian doesn't have that. He didn't have a childhood, or even a life, really, to teach him what's important. To him, fighting crime is like anything else; it's a test. When Bruce told him "We're going to fight crime," that, in Damian's mind, was a challenge. It's a game for him to be the best at. That's why he went out and killed the Spook. In the world he was raised in, the way he was trained, was to be the best.

There are a couple of key influences that have started to turn him around, though. Chiefly, he wants to please Batman. Bruce is maybe the only thing Damian actually cares about, so when Bruce says "We don't kill," Damian listens.

The other thing is when Damian "failed" the girl who became Scarlet in the first arc of Batman & Robin. Not only did that teach him humility (that is to say, he is clearly not "the best" at this game), but he felt responsible for what happened to her. That's the first time you can really tell that he's starting to get a sense of why it's important to do what they do.

The truth, though, is that Damian is still mostly motivated by Bruce, to live up to that standard and to be good at what he does. If I had been writing him, I would have written the loss of Bruce as teaching Damian some humanity; he'd never lost anything that was important to him before, and the "death" of Batman might have been used to teach him about the things that matter in life. Morrison, though, as much as I love him, doesn't write the small, personal stuff. He writes the big stuff (this is why Batman & Son is lacking a scene where Batman is indignant that Talia would have hidden a son from him--though that's also because Talia is massively out of character).

I think that, besides Dick, Damian is the character to watch in the Bat-mythos. He has massive potential for a great character arc, and he's probably the most unique among them, making him interesting. If he's handled by the right writers, I think he's going to go places.

 

[hippie_hunter]

Fair enough; I suppose you get that from having read plenty of other Damian stuff in Batman & Robin and various other comics. I haven't read any of those, though, and that scene as presented seems to indicate that Damian wanted to see Tim go splat. Seems like the Bat-office needs to decide definitively what kind of characterization they're trying to put forth for Damian, more than anything else.

Except they have put out a consistent characterization with Damian. In pretty much every book he's in, he's portrayed as an insecure elitist with a tad bit of a brutal streak that is dying down. But they're not going to put a key character moment in a book that isn't about Damian Wayne, they're going to put that in Batman & Robin, which you skipped out on.

But even in Red Robin, they show that Damian never had the intention of killing Tim and that he was mostly letting out his frustrations that despite all the progress that Damian has made into becoming a better person, Tim still does not show him any respect and even treated him as a potential villain. Nicieza not only showed Damian being flat out insulted, but also saddened by it.

 

[hippie_hunter]

It doesn't matter either way; it's Niceiza, who is more concerned with boosting Tim than writing other characters properly (or even decent stories), so a stupid moment in his book doesn't surprise me.

Except Niceiza kinda showed Tim being in the wrong in this regard. He had no real reason to put Damian on his list and in the end all Tim did was emotionally hurt a 10 year old boy.

 

[hippie_hunter]

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f....59731749143.65878.55919364143&type=1&theater


Sensei's got quite the death trap for Brucie. October aint that far!

Is Neal completely oblivious to why DC isn't promoting Batman: Odyssey?

 

[Drz]

What can kill a book is inactivity and thus the book should be promoted for better sales, not to mention #6 received positive reviews and despite the internet usually being vocally whiny, that doesn't mean people are hating it, kinda like Bendis Avengers example, internet hates it, but it sells.

 

[hippie_hunter]

What can kill a book is inactivity and thus the book should be promoted for better sales, not to mention #6 received positive reviews and despite the internet usually being vocally whiny, that doesn't mean people are hating it, kinda like Bendis Avengers example, internet hates it, but it sells.

Except Batman: Odyssey isn't lighting the charts on fire. It has had massive drops in orders issue by issue and the series as a whole has been critically panned not just by fans but by various professional reviewers.

Big difference from Bendis' Avengers which despite whiny Internet fans such as myself, is overall critically positive and sells well with the drops being minor and even seeing increases in sales from time to time.

 

[Drz]

http://best.complex.com/pop-culture...this-week-batman-invincible-iron-man-and-more

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=3173

It has received good critism, thats just #6 which was the latest one. Yeah it's not Bendis' Avengers sales, but still healthy sales that should be promoted. Also with Neal's name the trade will have a shot at becoming a New York Best seller, like Wonder Woman Odyssey became.

 

[hippie_hunter]

http://best.complex.com/pop-culture...this-week-batman-invincible-iron-man-and-more

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=3173

It has received good critism, thats just #6 which was the latest one. Yeah it's not Bendis' Avengers sales, but still healthy sales that should be promoted. Also with Neal's name the trade will have a shot at becoming a New York Best seller, like Wonder Woman Odyssey became.

Just because one issue got good reviews doesn't mean that the rest of the series has been considered to be a train wreck. If Batman: Odyssey has a life, it'll be just as you say on the trades, not with the single issues.

Why should DC continue to promote something that does not have healthy sales, is poorly regarded, and overall most people don't give a damn about?

 

[Saint]

Except Niceiza kinda showed Tim being in the wrong in this regard. He had no real reason to put Damian on his list and in the end all Tim did was emotionally hurt a 10 year old boy.

I haven't read the issue in question, so I can't comment on this specifically.

 

[Drz]

Well i'll post the CBR reviews:
#3 received only 1,5/5 stars but it was reviewed by Greg McElhatton (the others are reviewed by Chad Nevett) that you can read here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=2645

This book is a mess. I understand that Adams is a comics legend, and that DC was probably thrilled enough with Adams agreeing to "Batman: Odyssey" that on an editorial level they're trying to keep him happy. But I can't help but wonder that if this is the comic that made it through editorial, what did the first draft look like? If Adams was writing my dialogue, my next sentence would probably be, "Egads!" Which says it all, really.

I disagree on the story being a mess, all characters (outside the mysterious Batman-2 and Robin-2 dynamic for now) are connected to the story and mostly due to Sensei being the mastermind villain, being behind Deadman and the Flying Grayson's deaths and now wanting to kill the Waynes and Ghuls for good. Chad Nevett the guy whos reviewed #1,2,4,5 and 6 has pretty much shown that the dialogue is the main weakness in the book, which is true. Here are the other reviews:
#1 2,5/5 stars
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=2414
#2 - 2,5/5 stars
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=2526
#4 - 3/5 stars
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=2739

Issue 5 doesn't seem to have a review, but yeha i don't know what reviews IGN has given, i bet they're mostly negative tho haha. And yeah ComicsAlliance did that Neal Adams is crazy article, but theres good reviews out there as there are bad ones too.

Regarding the sales:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=31223

More people care about Batman Odyssey then:
- Teen Titans
- Batgirl (i mean Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl is a cult favourite)
- Punisher Max
- Deadpool Max & Deadpool
- Secret Six (another cult favourite)
- Secret Warriors
- Thunderbolts!
- American Vampire
- Batman Beyond

I mean clearly it's not the most selling Batman comic, but you can see it's alot healthier than a comic such as Secret Six which is getting canceled since not enough people care about that comic. Gosh i do hope i can get a Secret Six Omnibus coming out, make it happen DC!

 

[Motown Marvel]

More people care about Batman Odyssey then:
- Teen Titans
- Batgirl (i mean Bryan Q. Miller's Batgirl is a cult favourite)
- Punisher Max
- Deadpool Max & Deadpool
- Secret Six (another cult favourite)
- Secret Warriors
- Thunderbolts!
- American Vampire
- Batman Beyond

I mean clearly it's not the most selling Batman comic, but you can see it's alot healthier than a comic such as Secret Six which is getting canceled since not enough people care about that comic. Gosh i do hope i can get a Secret Six Omnibus coming out, make it happen DC!

its not that people care more about batman: odyssey than those other books. its they care more about neal adams' legacy.

 

[hippie_hunter]

While Batman: Odyssey initially sold more than those books you mention, the sales of the other books are a lot healthier than that of Batman: Odyssey. The drops in Secret Six, Batgirl, Teen Titans, Deadpool, etc. are actually quite stable as opposed to the rather large drops in Batman: Odyssey. Meaning that the audience for those titles are sticking with those books while comic retailers haven't figured out how many people really want Batman: Odyssey, people are just flat out dropping the book, or quite possibly both. Now ask me: which book is healthier? The obvious answer is "Not Batman: Odyssey," which at the rate it is dropping could end up selling less than most of the titles that you mention by the time it gets to issue #13.

Demand for Neal Adams just wasn't there to begin with, the same way that a lot of older former superstar comic creators like Chris Claremont, Stan Lee, Marv Wolfman, etc. aren't bringing in the dough they used to. However, I do think that it has potential to have a life on the trade shelves.

 

[Drz]

EDIT: @Hippie Hunter: Excelent point i didn't think of! Well ultimately we can't tell how much it would or will continue to drop, i do hope they would promote or just start with a new #1 if you ask me. I'm still happy its getting collected in 1 trade according to Adams' daughter Kriss, that should sell like hot pancakes!

@Motown: Thats as much flawed argument as "Bendis' Avengers book only sells because of his name and it's important continuity wise" i really dislike those arguments. Why can't people accept the possibility that some people like it? Or it's art?

PS. Oh and i do understand that obviously there are people buying this just because of Neal Adams name, the art or because it's "so bad so good" for them. ^^;

 

[hippie_hunter]

EDIT: @Hippie Hunter: Excelent point i didn't think of! Well ultimately we can't tell how much it would or will continue to drop, i do hope they would promote or just start with a new #1 if you ask me. I'm still happy its getting collected in 1 trade according to Adams' daughter Kriss, that should sell like hot pancakes!

That's a very good idea IMO. I hate it when they divide the trades into two parts and certainly would help the trade life of the series.

And if you want it to sell better, it would be better to wait it out just a bit. With DC relaunching the DC Universe not only in September, but also other books in October and maybe even November, Batman: Odyssey would just get pushed aside and ignored in favor of promoting the new post-Flashpoint continuity. Just poor timing right now.

Or maybe they should just skip the monthly market completely and finish the series up and promote it as an OGN. It wouldn't have to compete with not only the new DC line-up, but also the post-Fear Itself Marvel Universe, and the relaunch of the Ultimate Marvel line. And it would be easier to promote a series like Batman: Odyssey as an OGN than a 13 issue miniseries.

 

[Assassin]

who actually read that piece of ****?

 

[Roose Bolton]

Editorial certainly didn't before they sent it to the printer.

 

[Drz]

Editorial certainly didn't before they sent it to the printer.

Yes, because clearly the editorials would have something againts a Batman comic having detective elements, superheroicsand a wide range of characters around the DC Universe, this is clearly not what Batman is suppose to be about, detective stories with superheroics. So anyhow:
From Baltimore DC Roadshow:

The word Superhero doesn’t exist yet.

Geoff Johns stated “Three key elements to his JLA are “Heart, Humor & Heroics”, Lee & Johns added that the word Superhero doesn’t exist yet and that Batman at this point when the JLA first meet in the first arc of his book is more or less an Urban Legend that has been working behind the scenes for years.” Arc #2 would take place years later in the current timeline. JLA would be the book that is kind of the start of the DC Superhero universe.

So Superman is the 1st superhero vigilante, but Batman is still the 1st vigilante, say whaat?

 

[hippie_hunter]

Yes, because clearly the editorials would have something againts a Batman comic having detective elements, superheroicsand a wide range of characters around the DC Universe, this is clearly not what Batman is suppose to be about, detective stories with superheroics.

Considering some of the actions lately, there is something wrong with Bat-editorial. Late books, inconsistent quality, etc. is just not tolerable IMO.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Yes, because clearly the editorials would have something againts a Batman comic having detective elements, superheroicsand a wide range of characters around the DC Universe, this is clearly not what Batman is suppose to be about, detective stories with superheroics.

It's not the plot that I have any real complaints about, it's the god awful writing, for example "It's too late Batman.she is killed." is NOT a correct sentence. Perhaps Neal Adams should have known that, but even if not, editorial should have. Its just laziness on their behalf.

 

[Drz]

Dialogue is it's achilles heel, but are you talking about the little girl? Because the father says "Batman. She's killed" so i'm not sure where this incorrect sentence comes from. But yeah editorials are really lacking when it comes to grammar at times, and sometimes the Green Lantern sectors are incorrectly numbered.

 

[Mystirious]

I'm actually enjoying how nuts that Batman Odyssey is. We got to see Alfred make sex hands and then offer to murder someone. We got to see Batman fight a Mexican maniac named Maniaco. We even got to see Batman take a nap in the middle of a tense arguement with Ra's al Ghul

It's like Manos the hands of fate only it stars Batman

 

[Anubis]

The question is, is it intended to be insane or is it insane because the guy writing it has lost his damn mind?

It's basically a Frank Miller situation. Which would explain Drz's undying luff for it.