Comics Official Fans of Reilly Thread

[Reilly28]

My favorite is Blood Brothers for sure.

 

[mre]

Wait. Didn't Batman die in #666 of his series? I don't think Marvel would so shamelessly ape an idea like that.

The story in Batman #666 takes place 15 years in the future when Bruce's son(?) Damian is Batman.

I think Batman dies in Batman R.I.P. #676-681

 

[mre]

Is it just me or does this Clone Saga mini suck big time?

 

[spidey-dude]

it hasnt been spectacular

 

[Ultra Magnus]

I like the Clone Saga mini.
It's a little fast paced and most of the shocking moments are removed in favor of more action, but you can't expect the same depth and twist and turns in 6 issues that you had in 3 1/2 years during the clone saga.
And I really like the changes they made, Ben and Peter being cousins, Ben with blonde hair.
Ben is living his "Spider-Man live" as the Scarlet Spider now and Peter is still around. The scenario is great.

For a mini this is a great read.

And you can't imagine how happy I am to see Ben and Scarlet Spider again.

 

[mre]

And I really like the changes they made, Ben and Peter being cousins, Ben with blonde hair.
Ben is living his "Spider-Man live" as the Scarlet Spider now and Peter is still around. The scenario is great.

They told people they were cousins in the original run. Same with Ben with blonde hair.

It's great to see the characters, but the writing is terrible.

I don't think the story is fast paced either. It's really slow paced, with a lot happening in between issues.

 

[JewishHobbit]

For the record, Batman died in Final Crisis 5 or 6, which took place after the R.I.P. arc of his own title.


And I haven't picked up the newest issue yet but I skimmed it and it was kinda bleh. I think I hate the art, that's a big damper, and the story, without the detail of the original saga, feels a bit too jarring for me. I like that they're trying, but without new Scarlet Spider material, I'm surprised to find that I just don't care. I flipped through issue 2 and just kinda shrugged and put it back on the shelf. That, I didn't expect before now.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I agree about the mini. I was looking forward to it, but so far I'll take the 2 year, convoluted original over the updated mini. Tom Defalco is good at writing plots, but TERRIBLE at writing dialogue. Sorry, Spider-Girl fans, but it's the truth. The cringe-worthy exchange between Kaine and Ben has Defalco's tin-ear written all over it. And Howard Mackie, well... he was okay on Ghost-Rider and his old Web of Spider-Man run, but people forget how terrible his later work was on the relaunch and the books leading up to it. That can't all be blamed on Byrne and Harras. There's a reason you don't see Mackie's name on many books these days. Maybe if they had 12 issues to work with instead of 6, or if they had talent like JM DeMatteis pitching in, we would have a stronger book. But as it is, I'd give this mini a C so far.

Funnily enough, I like the art though.

 

[WOLVERINE25TH]

I love DeFalco's writing, and his character development. But, as I said before I agree with the fact that too much is happening off-panel between issues. The problem with revisiting a story some-odd years later and doing it like it SHOULD have been done is people change. Their worldview changes, their skills change, their everything changes. The tone of this book is markedly different from the original, and of course ideas have been shifted and changed.

 

[imdaly]

but people forget how terrible his later work was on the relaunch and the books leading up to it.

They do???

 

[AgentEnforcer]

So, in the latest Clone Saga issue, it comes out that the man in the shadows is responsible for May's failing health, and MJ is infected with the same illness. Obviously this will explain where the baby will go. At least in the original Clone Saga the baby had a purpose and fans were seriously wondering if there would be a spider baby. In this mini, you know how it will be disposed of before she even starts showing. They should have ignored the pregnancy. I know it was important, but its not great in the mini. Also, I'm guessing the man in the shadows is not the Jackel? I have to re-read, but if that is the case Kaine is working for Osborn (?) AND the Jackel?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Some nice preview art from Clone Saga #3 can be found here.

http://marvel.com/images/594539./from/content.story.10111

Kaine certainly looks younger there than his incarnation in ASM.

ASM definitely takes a more Spider-Girl approach to his appearance.

 

[spidey-dude]

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=31609

preview for next asm - surprisingly I have been enjoying it more than the clone saga mini

 

[AgentEnforcer]

Does anyone think Ben will don his Spider-Man costume before the end of this Clone Saga series? With Peter being beaten to within an inch of his life and MJ pregnant, will Ben take over the mantle?

 

[Panther10]

I sure as hell hopes so. in fact if the title does well enough, I think they should keep it running in a stand alone ongoing series with ben as spider-man. if they keep it as a stand alone title, much like the ultimate universe, or wolverine origins, or even spider-girl..maybe marvel wont be so repelled by the idea of keeping ben around as spidey.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

Here ya go lads. Get excited.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

I'm enjoying the art so far in the Clone Saga mini, but still not sure what to make of it. Are these 6 issues suppose to have spread over a time period (I'm assuming considerably shorter than the actual Clone Saga ended up being)? Are they cutting out stories that weren't directly tied to the saga? I see they are keeping the marriage and pregnancy intact, but are still updating it (like Jon Stewart references).

The story running in Amazing, kind of eh, and seems to be a rehash again of Ben wanted for Kaine's murders (at least maybe, still waiting for outcome). I just find myself waiting for this arc to end.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

Yeah it just kinda skips along. Like the first issue recounts Peter and Ben's first meeting, but instead of fighting Traveller at Ravencroft they are just attacked by Kaine. It mostly takes place over a couple of hours. The next issue is the same thing. Takes place over a couple of hours. Ben has already become Scarlet Spider off panel, and has blonde hair and stuff. They skip ahead to the Maximum Clonage story. It's extremely truncated... they definatly cut out a lot. But I mean all of this stuff could have happened just in the time between books. The one good thing about the original Clone Saga happening through at least 4 books a month, plus specials and mini's, is that they really had time to develop Ben and you saw every key moment. When he makes his costume, when he decides to be a hero again, when he takes on Venom, why Peter can't be Spider-Man anymore, when Spider-Man gives Ben the costume. All of these moments had hundreds of issues to develop. Yeah it got dragged on, but basically they gave Ben the equivalent of like 20 years worth of comics and stories if the character only had one monthly. And I think this is why people got the chance to like him so much.

In no way can you duplicate that in a 6 issue mini. They really should have made an ongoing What If, like Spider-Girl. Done it that way. But I won't complain. Ben comics are Ben comics, and we haven't gotten this much stuff with Ben since 1996.

 

[Venom160]

Here ya go lads. Get excited.

Nice but I gotta admit I still like the Scarlet Spider suit better.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'm enjoying the art so far in the Clone Saga mini, but still not sure what to make of it. Are these 6 issues suppose to have spread over a time period (I'm assuming considerably shorter than the actual Clone Saga ended up being)? Are they cutting out stories that weren't directly tied to the saga? I see they are keeping the marriage and pregnancy intact, but are still updating it (like Jon Stewart references).

The story running in Amazing, kind of eh, and seems to be a rehash again of Ben wanted for Kaine's murders (at least maybe, still waiting for outcome). I just find myself waiting for this arc to end.

I had high hopes for the Clone Saga mini, but I gotta say the first two issues were a let-down. As of now, I'm enjoying the "Who was Ben Reilly?" arc in ASM more. I do like the art a lot more in the Clone Saga mini, though. The brain-trust really has to stop splitting books between two different artists.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

So... after reading the last issue of the "Who was Ben Reilly" arc I can honestly say it was a total dissappointment, and one of the weaker stories of Brand New Day. Who was Ben Reilly? We don't learn anything new except that he worked with a new character who has part Dino DNA. This character believed Ben killed his family. What really happened? You may not want to continue if you don't want it spoiled... it's not very good or interesting anyway. So, what really happened back then? It looks like Ryder killed his own family. That what Ben says, and beats up on Ryder a bit. It's also possible Kaine just killed them. Kaine shows up and is pushed into the fire place and that's what causes the fire. Ryder doesn't believe that he killed his own family and is knocked out by a pissed off Reilly before he sees Kaine at all. Kaine attacks Ben one last time, but he has no hair or beard because it burned off. Even though he has been burned and lost all his hair, Kaine really has no other injuries. Odd... I didn't know he was burn proof. He has no Clone degeneration at this point, it is worth noting. So thats it, either Kaine killed his family, and doesn't admit it to Ben, or Ryder did himself. The latter is really lame, so i'll just assume Kaine did it to screw over Ben. But really, if Kaine did it, it's just a rehash of an old story, and if Ryder did it himself... it just an even stupider plot point. In the present, Harry is roughed up a bit by Raptor/Damon and Kaine tosses Peter around. Peter is thrown through a wall and is able to change into costume as Screwball appears. Spider-Man gets everyone out of the house, rips Screwball's camera off of her helmet, presumably she gets away, and Kaine pulls off Peter's mask to explain things to to Ryder. Kaine says that since Ryder wants Reilly dead and Peter is his clone, he might get just as much satisfaction by killing Peter. I guess the deal is Ryder will cure Kaine if he is able to take revenge on Reilly/Peter. Peter beats up Ryder as Kaine takes off. Peter makes a big speech about how he knows what Ben was capable of because he and Ben were the same, and Ben could not have murdered his family. The police show up and Spidey takes off, as does Ryder... somehow.

The resolution? Peter's cousins and Harry wonder how Peter doesn't have broken bones after being thrown through a wall, and also comment that Kaine looks a lot like Peter, with more muscle and hair. Damon/Raptor tells Kaine he lied about being able to cure him and Kaine seemingly just kills him. So the loose end of someone knowing Peter's identity is taken care of... making Raptor a totally pointless character. The resolution makes basically every point they tried to raise with the story meaningless. Either due to the writing or the art, a lot of it didn't make sense, most in regard to how people managed to get away.

With so much going on, you really have to suspend disbelief to even follow the story. You have to assume Ryder was so crazy and out of it that he did not remember killing his own family, or that Kaine really did it, and that Ryder does not really get a good look at Kaine in the past because why would he team up with him in the present? Yet, Ryder definatly remembers Ben being there and beating him up. Also, I have to double check, but Ben is drawn wearing a completely different outfit in this issue than he was in the flashback in the annual.

Another plot point which I have to go back to the old book and re-read to see if it's accurate, but did Ben always know Kaine was his clone? Even in Lost Years? Because Kaine says outright, they have the same DNA and stuff in this story in the past. So when Kaine was revealed back in the day as another Peter clone, it was only a surprise to the reader and Peter? As I said, I have to do some re-reading. But in this story, Ben always knew who and what Kaine was.

So I guess this is it for Ben in regular continuity. For some reason Peter doubted him and was worried he was a murderer, until the end when he was reminded by Kaine that he and Ben are the same, and Ben couldn't possibly be a murderer because Peter isn't... he was reminded of this by Kaine, who ALSO has the same DNA... and IS a murderer. Anyway, the story was at least a glimpse of Ben back in the day that for the most part doesn't hurt or alter his character.

The modern stuff is a mess, introducing Screwball who is a complete throwaway as a character. Ryder/Raptor is pointless and he is killed off, anyway, even after learning the truth. Kaine, who I always thought really had no problem with Peter, and went so far as trying to kill and torment Ben to make sure he didn't ruin Peter's life, is now shown as not caring what happens to Peter at all. Enjoying beating on him, and his suffering.

As Guggenheim's final Spidey story he goes out on a really weak note. It's a really convoluted plot, which is based on really weak points. It's good to have seen Ben but, dammit, he deserved a better story.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

So, as far as I can tell... Ben PROBABLY knew who and what Kaine was in the original comics, but it was never clearly stated and Peter never thought to ask Ben about it, and Ben never thought to tell him. Correct?

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I totally disagree. I thought the arc was good (not great) and would give it a solid B. Definitely better than the bad start to the Clone Saga mini. That I would give a C- as it stands right now.

The points you bring up are pretty minor. I'll ignore the artistic complaints like Ben wearing different clothing in ASM annual #36. That's an artistic blunder and those happen pretty often when a storyline changes artists. It's not a big deal though. I see stuff like that in almost every arc, like Peter suddenly changing shirt colors or hair-length from issue to issue, even if they take place in the same time period. Ironically it happened a lot during the clone saga, when multiple artists and writers would work on the same crossover arc.

I also see no contradictions with Ben and Kaine. By the time Ben sees Kaine in Jackal's lab during 'Maximum Clonage' he seems to have known for a while that Kaine is a clone and there's no sudden revelation on his part. This flashback in this arc clearly takes place after Janine has "died", since Ben and Kaine seem to have a pretty established relationship. I don't remember if Ben knew who Kaine was during 'Lost Years', but I'm fairly certain he did from 'Exile Returns' onward, or at least there's nothing in those books to prove he didn't.

Raptor was kinda silly character, but Guggs even said he's a parody of the lame characters that would pop up in the 90's. Spidercide anyone? Skull-Jacket??! Lady Ock??? Stunner??? Traveller??? All those virtual-reality nutballs??? C'mon... the clone-saga produced a lot worse! As for Screwball, she was not needed and felt tacked on, but it was Guggs' last Spidey story and it was his character, so maybe he had a fondness for her and wanted to include her in one last storyline before she faded into obscurity. I doubt we'll see her again. So he deserves the opportunity to use her one last time.

Kaine was awesome. It was great seeing him again after waiting a decade since that time he tangled with the Scriers. He was in character and acting his badass self. It was great seeing Peter tangle with him again. Brought back a lot of clone saga memories. That really made it worthwhile. And just the fact Ben Reilly is getting respect again is awesome. People complained for so long that he was either ignored or reduced to a joke in the Spidey books. Well, here we had a whole arc dedicated to the character and other elements of the clone-saga. And I for one, am quite satisfied.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

True, and again I'm quite glad we got Ben in a new story (and the point about the different outfit was only a minor nitpick) my complaint is with the story overall. I understand Guggenheim wanted a villain which echoed the crappiness of the 90's... very clever... and yes the guy did have long hair and trench coats and that, but did they have to make so many aspects of the story so loose fitting? Peter never finds out for sure Ben didn't kill the guy's family, he just assumes that since he'd never kill, Ben wouldn't, they share DNA. He comes to this conclusion AS HE FIGHTS Kaine... a killer. Same DNA.

It's never stated but I'm going to choose to believe Kaine actually killed Ryder's family because Ryder doing it, forgetting he did it, and tracking Ben/Peter for years is totally weak. But even after this, Ryder is just served up to Kaine to again prove how bad ass Kaine really is (granted the wholesale slaughter of the dude's family is a good reason to justify Bad-Assery.) Then, if you believe Kaine killed the guy's family, and then killed Ryder because he lied about helping him, then Kaine is also just kind of a remorseless dick. Fair enough, he's back and has potential.

The Ben stuff was great. It really was, and it would have been better if it were just a Ben story like The Lost Years, because when they tried to use it to set-up the present day story, thats when things got lame. Peter's motivations for thinking Ben was a murderer, and then not thinking so were poorly written. Ryder's motivations for hating Ben/Peter were really weak and ill-defined (did he kill his own family? Does it make him a stronger character or weaker if you knew the answer for sure?) And Kaine, well... Kaine just wants to cure himself. And be a dick.

The Clone Saga mini, which is taking the mediocre elements of the Clone Saga (mainly everything that focused on the Jackal or clone mystery) and condensing it to 6 issues. The true highlight of the Clone Saga was how they fleshed out Ben and Kaine, because at the time both were intended to be the new Spider-Man and the new Venom-type arch nemesis, respectively. Ben got so much amazing back story and characterization. This new mini-series just isn't that at it's core... Again, I can only enjoy it for the new Ben material.

 

[AgentEnforcer]

This flashback in this arc clearly takes place after Janine has "died", since Ben and Kaine seem to have a pretty established relationship. I don't remember if Ben knew who Kaine was during 'Lost Years', but I'm fairly certain he did from 'Exile Returns' onward, or at least there's nothing in those books to prove he didn't.

I thought so at first too, but it looks like Kaine has almost zero clone degeneration, compared to Lost Years where he was a bumpy, pock-marked mess. The events of this HAVE to take place before Lost Years, as Ben isn't using Seward as a reference, as he should have. Or else Seward is just simply not being mentioned to avoid confusion. Anyway, Ben bounced around a bit before Lost Years working at labs, so this fits pretty well.

EDIT: Alright, so we have a little continuity gaf, caused by some excellent continuity. This new Ben story takes place AFTER Lost Years. In the very first issue of the arc Dr. Ryder mentions a rave review of Ben by Dr. Epstein. Seemed random, he could have mentioned Dr. Trainer... but OH WAIT, in Lost Years #1 Ben is seen being interviewed by a Dr. Nora Epstein! I'll give you this one Guggenheim! So this takes place after Lost Years, yet Kaine is looking better than he did then, no clone degeneration. I supposed this could be explained that Kaine managed to get ahold of his suit before the Ryder incident, but wasn't wearing it at the time. I'm actually really happy about the Dr. Epstein thing, really awesome attention to detail.

My problems with the present day stuff still stand.