Official Wolverine And The X-men, Episode 6 "X-Calibre" Discussion

[ChaoticPsylocke]

never mind, i found a copy.

i really enjoyed this episode!

 

[Ziggyman]

I didn't really like this episode...

 

[Ratcrawler]

Spoiler

One of the things about Nightcrawler is that as a mutant he looks funky. He's not all sexy like a lot of the others.

I know there are a whole lot of fangirls (esPecially after Evo) who would disagree. >_^

 

[Ziggyman]

Nightcrawler also has two penises!

 

[usagicassidy]

Haha yes, the greatest thing Chuck Austen ever did as a writer...riiiight.

What's this about Hulk round 2? And seeing it before round 1? I don't understand. I mean, I'm aware that there's a Wolvie vs. Hulk episode, and that it's next, but is there another one later, that's like supposed to come before or something?

 

[spidey11]

Haha yes, the greatest thing Chuck Austen ever did as a writer...riiiight.

What's this about Hulk round 2? And seeing it before round 1? I don't understand. I mean, I'm aware that there's a Wolvie vs. Hulk episode, and that it's next, but is there another one later, that's like supposed to come before or something?

no, they are talking about the direct-to-dvd movie named "Hulk vs wolverine"
That is a prequel to episode 7 of wolverine and the x-men

 

[Dread]

I wasn't aware that HULK VS. was within any continuity to any show or cartoon.

I mean, Hulk has been voiced by the same actor from Ultimate Avengers to Next Avengers and they're not all linked.

 

[Max Shrek]

I wasn't aware that HULK VS. was within any continuity to any show or cartoon.

I mean, Hulk has been voiced by the same actor from Ultimate Avengers to Next Avengers and they're not all linked.

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/g_man/kyle-and-yosts-hulk-vs-wolverine/87-33910/

"I asked Craig if this will be the same "Wolverine" that will be in his "Wolverine and the X-Men" cartoon coming soon. He said yes. There will actually be a rematch in episode 7. "

 

[The Original Bamfer]

I absolutely loved this episode. But, then again, I'm partial to Nightcrawler. I think he was portrayed very well. And, for some strange reason, I really dug the whole mutant Pirate storyline.

 

[Dread]

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/g_man/kyle-and-yosts-hulk-vs-wolverine/87-33910/

"I asked Craig if this will be the same "Wolverine" that will be in his "Wolverine and the X-Men" cartoon coming soon. He said yes. There will actually be a rematch in episode 7. "

I see. That is weird because the Wolverine in HULK VS. will be able to stab people and rend flesh, and the one in W&TXM clearly cannot. He's gotten soft.

I absolutely loved this episode. But, then again, I'm partial to Nightcrawler. I think he was portrayed very well. And, for some strange reason, I really dug the whole mutant Pirate storyline.

I liked how Nightcrawler came off too. The Mojo Pirate story was a bit awkward but it played to Nightcrawler's strengths.

Having Squidboy get major focus in an episode while Colossus is perennially ignored, though is almost unforgivable.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think it's great that they are tying the animated movies together with the shows. I mean, certainly not all of them, but this story for instance is cool. Because it means we could see those versions of Lady Deathstrike and Deadpool show up in Wolverine and the X-men.

If the show was made with a PG-13 rating, Wolverine could stab people but it unfortunately isn't.

 

[Dread]

2k3 TMNT managed to find ways to imply that characters were slashed, stabbed, and even once impaled without offending Fox's censorship board. Where there is a will, there is a way.

That said, it is nice that there is some attempt at keeping a continuity, especially since we have the same voice actors working on both. So, naturally, does that mean Thor exists in W&TXM's universe?

 

[usagicassidy]

Oh god. Thor better stay far, far, far, far, far away from this show.

 

[The Overlord]

I see. That is weird because the Wolverine in HULK VS. will be able to stab people and rend flesh, and the one in W&TXM clearly cannot. He's gotten soft.



I liked how Nightcrawler came off too. The Mojo Pirate story was a bit awkward but it played to Nightcrawler's strengths.

Having Squidboy get major focus in an episode while Colossus is perennially ignored, though is almost unforgivable.

I think there is a reason why Colossus isn't around, he's a bit dated. He was created in the 70s during the Cold War to say "Hey all Russians aren't bad guys", like Chekov. Since the Cold War is long since over people don't care about that anymore.

The only way Ultimate Colossus was made interesting was to make him gay.

 

[TheVileOne]

I think the fact that this show wipes its backside with TMNT 2K3 more than makes up for that Dread .

 

[Dread]

I think there is a reason why Colossus isn't around, he's a bit dated. He was created in the 70s during the Cold War to say "Hey all Russians aren't bad guys", like Chekov. Since the Cold War is long since over people don't care about that anymore.

The only way Ultimate Colossus was made interesting was to make him gay.

I've heard that argument before, and it simply rewards writers for being unimaginative. If you want to write Colossus as a token Russkie speaking in broken English like Zangief, then yeah, he is outdated. I might add that in both U.S. animation and Japanese animation, Zangief has fared better than Colossus. Seriously.

If you tried to count how many Marvel characters were created specifically to counter the Cold War and are dated in that regard, you would lose count. They all had to be readjusted to fit more modern times.

Various comic writers over the years have done enough to shore up his characterization besides "token noble Russian". He's an artist. There is a sensitivity and even some sense of being naive despite the steel muscles. In some ways he easily could be written similar to Superman, only with fewer powers. He grew up with values on a farm, and the big bold superhero world, with gray areas and ruthless villains, can catch him off guard. And once the sensitive side is pierced, you can get an angry warrior. That is not to say Colossus is as popular as Superman or whatnot, but that is an easy example to find an angle for a character bible besides, "big dude who shouts, 'By Lenin's Ghost!' when surprised".

I mean c'mon, Gambit is the biggest Cajun stereotype in the universe, but he's usually considered an essential guest star at LEAST. Storm has usually been some form of lifeless in every single cartoon she has starred in, and she's been on the main cast of ALL of them.

Lots of comic book characters were products of their time. It is up to writing talent to keep them current. Back in the 70's, everyone hated Wolverine, but they gave him and writers a chance and now he's literally the face of the X-Men. A lack of imagination or drive should not be rewarded or excused.

Is Iceman the pinnacle of characterization here? No. All he is is an enthusiastic young hero. That is really it. That's hardly more than Colossus is, yet he's there for most major battles, or at least getting in background apprearances.

Colossus is a shame for Marvel, frankly. He's a longtime tanker character with some more reconizability than a lot of other characters. He has a simple yet classic design. And he has been botched for many years because it seems every writer has no imagination with him, they can't write a "nice" guy in a team show, and all they see is "token Russian" again and again and again. When you see more effort made in hack jobs like Carnage (who is basically, "Venom, only more evil"), it can make blood boil.

I think the fact that this show wipes its backside with TMNT 2K3 more than makes up for that Dread .

W&TXM is better than TMNT:FF of 2007 or TMNT:BTTS of this year. But is it better than the 2002-2006 run of 5 seasons? No. TMNT thus far had taken a lot more risks. Hell, in the pilot, "Things Change", Shredder kills a low level grunt off camera, and you hear his death scream. The fight sequences were usually paced better, and it has solid character models and animation.

Both TMNT seasons and W&TXM's season are 26 episodes, so at the end one can compare this to the initial TMNT First Season. Of course, TMNT went on to evolve much better than what was a good first season. So much so that the recent reboots have not even been able to hold a candle.

 

[TheVileOne]

They ran out of material from the original comics.

 

[Dread]

They ran out of material from the original comics.

Yeah, because that episode when Colossus realizes that Proteus is pure, vile evil and sacrifices his innocence to defeat him was a classic.

Oh, wait, that never happened.

Frankly, the only comic material any cartoon has ever attempted to run with was his origin sequence in the 90's with the tractor, and his time as an Acolyte for Magneto in EVOLUTION (which was interesting, but little came of it).

The 90's show had the idea to include him in an episode with Omega Red, whereas in the comics Red was usually another carry-over Wolverine enemy. I thought that was creative.

Basically, if the writers cared, there would be more effort. But writers don't care, so there isn't any, with Piotr. At the very least, I know I was right. I predicted W&TXM would repeat history in that regard, and I am most likely right.

But hey, at least we're getting decent versions of other characters, like Beast, Nightcrawler, Emma Frost, and of course Wolverine. Iceman is part of the core team roster, and Angel had more screentime than I imagined. And Cyclops...um...at least he wasn't vaporized by a lake.

 

[TheVileOne]

I was talking about heroes in a half-shell.

I also agree Dread. I agree that Colossus is a criminally underutilized character. They ridiculously killed Colossus off years back to end the legacy virus. And many writers wanted to bring him back since the X-men needed a powerhouse (Austen made Juggy fill that role). Of course Whedon who probably could've done whatever he wanted brought Colossus back.

I think there's a lot to be said about Colossus being a gentle giant type who reacts badly when his moral compass and world view are tested. I also think there's a big missed opportunity in having a Colossus/Shadowcat/Iceman triangle.

There's also the Rogue angle which they teased before Colossus was killed off and hasn't been brought up again since. That being that Rogue can touch Colossus while he's in his metal form. Not sure how this was never noticed before.

 

[TNC9852002]

I must admit.

Nightcrawler was seriously kicking ass in this episode.

I like how they're doing more with the powers with some of these characters than the TAS and Evolution did.

-TNC

 

[Dread]

I was talking about heroes in a half-shell.

Oh, I see. Yeah, 2k3 TMNT went through many of the Mirage issues.

I also agree Dread. I agree that Colossus is a criminally underutilized character. They ridiculously killed Colossus off years back to end the legacy virus. And many writers wanted to bring him back since the X-men needed a powerhouse (Austen made Juggy fill that role). Of course Whedon who probably could've done whatever he wanted brought Colossus back.

I think there's a lot to be said about Colossus being a gentle giant type who reacts badly when his moral compass and world view are tested. I also think there's a big missed opportunity in having a Colossus/Shadowcat/Iceman triangle.

There's also the Rogue angle which they teased before Colossus was killed off and hasn't been brought up again since. That being that Rogue can touch Colossus while he's in his metal form. Not sure how this was never noticed before.

Exactly. Marvel Comics haven't known what to do with Colossus. It disappoints me when TV show writers follow suit. Even Whedon couldn't figure out what to do with him after reviving him.

I did know about the subplot with Rogue (although it was a bit of a retcon; her powers worked against him in the past), and it was interesting.

Besides potential missed love triangles here, which is a solid idea, on a more personal basis for me, Colossus is kind of part of the "trinity" of X-Men I got to like as a kid. The 90's cartoon sort of introduced the X-Men to me in a bold way, and I went back to read reprints and whatnot that I could. I grew to like the 70's-80's era X-Men where you had Cyclops leading the "new" team for years. Wolverine, Colossus, and Nightcrawler were sort of like a three man combo for that. It would be many years before I liked Cyclops, but those three I'd always liked. Wolverine was always solid with those two. That kind of thing.

It is a shame Colossus can't be on a show with the other two.

Colossus is the X-Men's most well known tanker. Why not put in the effort to make him work? That's my thing.

I just see it as missed potential, and that always frustrates me, wherever I see it. These writers found a way to insert Squidboy seamlessly into an episode, but not Piotr? My inner fanboy Hulks Out.

I must admit.

Nightcrawler was seriously kicking ass in this episode.

I like how they're doing more with the powers with some of these characters than the TAS and Evolution did.

-TNC

Yeah, Nightcrawler kicked a lot of ass here.

 

[Blade X]

I think there is a reason why Colossus isn't around, he's a bit dated. He was created in the 70s during the Cold War to say "Hey all Russians aren't bad guys", like Chekov. Since the Cold War is long since over people don't care about that anymore.

The only way Ultimate Colossus was made interesting was to make him gay.

Colossus isn't dated, he is just written badly.

Ultimate Colossus being gay is nothing more then a cheap stunt done by an over rated hack of a writer who relies more on "controversy" and "shock" in order to sell the comics he writes.

 

[Dread]

Colossus isn't dated, he is just written badly.

Ultimate Colossus being gay is nothing more then a cheap stunt done by an over rated hack of a writer who relies more on "controversy" and "shock" in order to sell the comics he writes.

It did reek of a desperate move.

To be fair, when Millar launched the title, he kept Ultimate Colossus' sexuality a bit ambiguous, in the "bi-curious" range. Later writers Vaughan and Kirkman would then officially launch it into upfront homosexuality. Which wasn't a major problem to me. Even despite that, he still wasn't handled well after Millar. At least Millar gave Ult. Colossus some defining power moments, such as crushing Proteus, dragging a massive submarine from thousands of leagues under the sea, and his beat-down of Magneto in his final arc, "ENTER THE KING".

That said, it didn't especially add much to Colossus, and Ultimate took a lot of his "idealism" away by making him involved with the Russian Mob, which traded one cliche (Communism) with another. Granted, after the debut issue, this plotline was mostly abandoned until recently. Basically Ultimate made more attempts to "grit" Colossus up.

Quite frankly, I don't think it is the outdated roots or the powers that stifle writers. From what I have seen, it is because they have difficulty making a character who deep down is genuinely honest and noble, even moreso than a few of his fellow X-Men to the point where he seems naive, interesting. Keep in mind this is a franchise where "gray" characters like Wolverine, Gambit, and Rogue are usually the most popular; where even the seemingly "straight-laced" Scott Summers has deep skeletons in his closet. They fail to understand that such a contradiction IS what makes Colossus interesting as part of an ensemble cast. He isn't a character who could star in his own series for 100 issues, and even struggles with a mini, but with some creativity can thrive in a team cast.

Plus, while everyone sees Gambit and Wolverine (and to some degree Cyclops) as the "ladykillers" of the X-Men, Colossus has been in plenty of romances or "friendly relations" with female characters.

After seeing this show handle Nightcrawler so well, it does get frustrating to see the road not traveled with the Russkie. The talent is there and the show's writers do have a care and knowledge for their characters. It's like the Cubs and their World Series futility. After a while it just becomes grating to see the missed potential.

 

[Blade X]

2k3 TMNT managed to find ways to imply that characters were slashed, stabbed, and even once impaled without offending Fox's censorship board. Where there is a will, there is a way.

That said, it is nice that there is some attempt at keeping a continuity, especially since we have the same voice actors working on both. So, naturally, does that mean Thor exists in W&TXM's universe?

And before TMNT 2K3, there was GARGOYLES and the LEGEND OF PRINCE VALIANT cartoons (the later which showed people actually getting cut and slashed with swords in just about every single episode). These 2 children's cartoon are proof that you can have characters getting slashed/cut and/or killed by bladed weapons in a tasteful non bloody manner.

I also agree with your second point.

 

[Blade X]

Quite frankly, I don't think it is the outdated roots or the powers that stifle writers. From what I have seen, it is because they have difficulty making a character who deep down is genuinely honest and noble, even moreso than a few of his fellow X-Men to the point where he seems naive, interesting. Keep in mind this is a franchise where "gray" characters like Wolverine, Gambit, and Rogue are usually the most popular; where even the seemingly "straight-laced" Scott Summers has deep skeletons in his closet. They fail to understand that such a contradiction IS what makes Colossus interesting as part of an ensemble cast. He isn't a character who could star in his own series for 100 issues, and even struggles with a mini, but with some creativity can thrive in a team cast.

Plus, while everyone sees Gambit and Wolverine (and to some degree Cyclops) as the "ladykillers" of the X-Men, Colossus has been in plenty of romances or "friendly relations" with female characters.

After seeing this show handle Nightcrawler so well, it does get frustrating to see the road not traveled with the Russkie. The talent is there and the show's writers do have a care and knowledge for their characters. It's like the Cubs and their World Series futility. After a while it just becomes grating to see the missed potential.

You hit the nail right on the head. I agree with everything you said.

IMO, I think if writers would show more of Colossus "fun side" (show him having more of a sense of humor), he would come off a lot more interesting. They could also start showing him more as a kick butt fighter during combat and have him start using his super strength in different ways (like using his super strong legs to jump really high).