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Wolverine and the X-men Episode 21 'Rover'

Dread. Stop being so melodramatic. Once again you are twisting **** around.

Xavier simply realizes that if THERE IS NO OTHER WAY, than Logan will have to kill Jean. They are only SUGGESTING THAT.

Also, keep in mind that Wolverine did basically kill her when they were flying into the sun, but all it did was unleash the Phoenix.

That was at the end of Morrison's run, basically.

What I am saying is that it is surprising for me as a fan to see any incarnation of Wolverine that has seemed to dismiss Jean so completely. Usually he's loved her as much as Cyclops seemed to. Both he and Scott were conflicted and unable to kill her during the original Dark Phoenix, and were willing to fight a desperate battle against the Shi'ar even when she posed a threat to the universe because Wolverine loved her too. In W&TXM, Logan hasn't mourned or missed Jean one single day. It makes him look indifferent, as a womanizer rather than more of a legitimate love rival for her affections. The idea of Logan killing Jean for any reason should be a horrible moral dilemma for him; his head over his heart. Here, he's like, "Sure thing, Chuck. Whatever." It's jarring to see that kind of interpretation.

Cyclops is supposed to be irrationally obsessed with Jean, but with him literally being the only one who seems to miss her or care about her fate, or genuinely not want her to die, it hinders the point they are making with him.

Xavier is supposed to be a passionate man. Here he seems like the man in Ultimate X-Men who gladly sent teenagers to their death without any guilt. It is also jarring. Aside for the basic ideals of their causes, he honestly isn't much different than Magneto; both are willing to use the lives of others as pawns, it seems. I doubt this show's version of Magneto would be so callous if someone told him Scarlet Witch destroys the world; now he at least I have no problems with his depiction. Magneto in this show has been awesome.
 
That was at the end of Morrison's run, basically.

It still happened in the 616-verse. And it wasn't the end of his run. The end of the Morrison run was the future, post-apocalypse scenario that had the inspiration for the Rover sentinel in this episode.

What I am saying is that it is surprising for me as a fan to see any incarnation of Wolverine that has seemed to dismiss Jean so completely. Usually he's loved her as much as Cyclops seemed to. Both he and Scott were conflicted and unable to kill her during the original Dark Phoenix, and were willing to fight a desperate battle against the Shi'ar even when she posed a threat to the universe because Wolverine loved her too. In W&TXM, Logan hasn't mourned or missed Jean one single day. It makes him look indifferent, as a womanizer rather than more of a legitimate love rival for her affections. The idea of Logan killing Jean for any reason should be a horrible moral dilemma for him; his head over his heart. Here, he's like, "Sure thing, Chuck. Whatever." It's jarring to see that kind of interpretation.

The love for Jean is only a by-product of the love he had for Rose because Jean reminds him of Rose.

Wolverine has never really been a legitimate love rival for Jean. Also, prove to me that Wolverine in this show would truly be OK with the idea if he actually had to face it? You can't. Because it hasn't come to pass.

Cyclops is supposed to be irrationally obsessed with Jean, but with him literally being the only one who seems to miss her or care about her fate, or genuinely not want her to die, it hinders the point they are making with him.

This is different. Jean could be the start of basically the end of the world and there wasn't that same perspective in the Dark Phoenix saga.

Xavier is supposed to be a passionate man. Here he seems like the man in Ultimate X-Men who gladly sent teenagers to their death without any guilt. It is also jarring. Aside for the basic ideals of their causes, he honestly isn't much different than Magneto; both are willing to use the lives of others as pawns, it seems. I doubt this show's version of Magneto would be so callous if someone told him Scarlet Witch destroys the world; now he at least I have no problems with his depiction. Magneto in this show has been awesome.

Look at how the X-men comics have recently addressed Xavier and the rift that now exists between himself and Cyclops. Xavier has done wrong. Xavier's not this perfectly infallible dude either he's made a lot of mistakes.
 
This is different. Jean could be the start of basically the end of the world and there wasn't that same perspective in the Dark Phoenix saga.

yeah so when was Dark Phoenix never a threat to earth? its not like she didn't wipe out millions in space for no reason at all in that story. But earth couldn't have been at risk
 
It still happened in the 616-verse. And it wasn't the end of his run. The end of the Morrison run was the future, post-apocalypse scenario that had the inspiration for the Rover sentinel in this episode.

I know. I mentioned in my review that Rover came from Morrison's run, even if the episode did remind me of "Doom's Word Is Law" from FF:WGH, also written by Craig Kyle, which basically had the same plot, that only was a comedy like the rest of the show was, and W&TXM is serious.

The love for Jean is only a by-product of the love he had for Rose because Jean reminds him of Rose.

Wolverine has never really been a legitimate love rival for Jean. Also, prove to me that Wolverine in this show would truly be OK with the idea if he actually had to face it? You can't. Because it hasn't come to pass.

While Rose in ORIGINS helped iron out Wolverine's connection to sensitive red-heads, I always thought his love for Jean was genuine. They had chemistry and the impression I usually got was that if not for Cyclops, Jean likely would have dated him. As it was, she often was attracted to Wolverine and in later years would seemingly look for any excuse during a "we're about to die" sort of battle to make out with him. In a few alternate realities, including AGE OF APOCALYPSE, Jean Grey hooked up with Wolverine. While I do appreciate the role that Rose had in Logan's very early life, I never just thought that Logan only wanted Jean just 'cause in the comics. Otherwise, the whole triangle the three of them had would have been dull after a while. It was because Logan's feelings in the comics were legitimate that it lasted so long.

Now in this cartoon itself? No, I agree Logan may not have been a legitimate love rival, although he was clearly attracted and interested, and while Jean wasn't romantically interested, the biker did at least spark her curiosity.

You do have a point that Wolverine has not faced "Dark Phoenix Jean" in this show yet and he may be unable to actually kill her. It is true he may have simply been better at holding his emotions than Cyclops in that sequence (which is again astonishing, such a cool and collected Logan), or at least be able to tell Xavier he would be willing to do so from afar without actually having faced it yet. For all we know Logan could hesitate.

You do have to concede, at the very least, that Logan hasn't actively mourned Jean's loss on camera, though. Granted, none of the other X-Men besides Scott have seemed to, either.

This is different. Jean could be the start of basically the end of the world and there wasn't that same perspective in the Dark Phoenix saga.

The Dark Phoenix Saga was about her being a menace to the entire universe. Which I guess seems bigger than the planet itself and harder to wrap one's head around, but if anything that was a bigger perspective.

Look at how the X-men comics have recently addressed Xavier and the rift that now exists between himself and Cyclops. Xavier has done wrong. Xavier's not this perfectly infallible dude either he's made a lot of mistakes.

Oh, I know Xavier has made mistakes, not even including Juggernaut, Magneto, and Legion. Rather than just tell his students he needed to be left alone for a few months to plan for an alien invasion, Xavier was perfectly happy with having Changeling impersonate him and then having most of his X-Men (besides Jean) believe him to be dead, funeral and all. Then there's the whole business with Vulcan.

My only problem is that I think in recent years, as the "creepy cult leader" version from Ult. XM from Mark Millar became popular around 2002-2003, more writers in the 616 universe started attaching more "dark secrets" to Xavier's past, and more questionable actions. The biggest problem with that tactic is that if you blur the line between Xavier and Magneto too much, if you have Xavier seem no better than Magneto, then there really is no point to his X-Men, and that is a tough line to straddle. How can you follow the ideals of a man who is a complete fraud?

I won't say WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN's Xavier is at that level yet, but he is quite a bit cold and callous. He isn't nearly the passive empath of other animated versions. Wolverine seems to be the only person he seems to be actively trying to understand and help emotionally, and even that could be seen as him backing his horse to save the future. Future Xavier at the very least seems to care more about accomplishing the mission than on making sure everyone is hunky dorey, and while it may be shrewd, it also can be seen as cold.
 
Wolverine never agreed to killing Jean or assured Xavier he would do as such.

Also Age of Apocalypse, I totally didn't buy the Jean/Wolverine romance. I think Wolverine even said he felt that Jean's affections for him were purely based on gratitude and she didn't truly love him.

When Scott was believed dead, Wolverine didn't do anything about it or make any moves on Jean while she was on rebound. Wolverine felt guilty that Scott died since he played a role with Apocalypse as death.
 
Wolverine never agreed to killing Jean or assured Xavier he would do as such.

I know. I conceded in my last post that while Wolverine seemed to accept Xavier's strategy better than Scott did, there is no guarantee he would be any more willing to kill Jean than Scott until/unless they are in that position.

Also Age of Apocalypse, I totally didn't buy the Jean/Wolverine romance. I think Wolverine even said he felt that Jean's affections for him were purely based on gratitude and she didn't truly love him.

When Scott was believed dead, Wolverine didn't do anything about it or make any moves on Jean while she was on rebound. Wolverine felt guilty that Scott died since he played a role with Apocalypse as death.

That's fine, but the whole Scott/Jean/Logan triangle existed in the comics for ages and I sincerely doubted it would have if Logan's attraction to her was simply for a fling. He often disliked Scott when he was a flake with her. Whether it would or could have lasted is up to Jean, of course. And hey, Logan choosing not to exploit Cyclops' sacrifice to stop Apocalypse after "The Twelve" was at least honorable.

In W&TXM, though, for all we know Wolverine may have really just been in it for a fling. Jean was curious in the man himself but was not romantically interested...yet.

Onto the episode at hand, Rover kicked ass. ;) The episode worked because the writers made Rover sympathetic and likable, and he was a bag of bolts.
 
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Rover where did he come from, All I know was that was the Sentinel future Polaris sent them away with in the desert.
 
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Rover where did he come from, All I know was that was the Sentinel future Polaris sent them away with in the desert.

In the WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN cartoon, "Rover" did indeed come from the episodes "BADLANDS", assembled by Polaris to protect her and then later the X-Men. Marrow apparently bonded to it and helped repair/maintain it from parts stolen from other Sentinels.

In the comics, Rover was created by Grant Morrison for his final arc on "New" X-Men, "HERE COMES TOMORROW", circa 2005. It was a story depicting the far future of Earth after Cyclops closes down the school after mourning the death of Jean Grey to who he thought (and Morrison intended) to be Magneto and over guilt via cheating on her with Emma Frost psychically. Apparently in the far future this would have led to the Sentinels taking over the world and using DNA from captured/killed mutants to create super-Sentinels. "Rover" was the reprogrammed Sentinel of human Tom Skylark, who has possession of "the Phoenix Egg" (from where the Phoenix is always reborn), alongside E.V.A., Wolverine, the Stepford Cuckoos, and Cassandra Nova. Leader of the harsh future is the despotic Beast, who has become long corrupted by the sentient mold, Sublime. It all leads to a final battle against a nearly omnipotent Beast/Sublime, to which a revived Jean sends a psychic message back in time and basically tells Scott to "live", which basically meant making out with Emma Frost on Jean's tombstone before reopening the school, thus preventing that dark future from happening.
 
And that whole thing would be less of a big deal without the making out on Jean's tombstone part. lol
 

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