Ohio's Supreme Court backs the firing of a creationist science teacher

[Thundercrack85]

I'm all for religion being taught in a history-like context. Finding out there was more than one god was the first step to me realizing they were manmade.

Of course, people would protest the hell out of a comparative religions class.

 

[Joshua_B]

No, but it does mean not forcing your ideas on other people who might not accept them when those ideas can't be proven.

There's a difference between forcing and giving people equal options. Presenting macro-evolution as the theory it is would be an excellent start.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I don;t know anything about the "God particle", but the so-called "Big Bang" has some very good evidence, in that it points to the universe having a static beginning. That doesn't automatically prove it happened billions of years ago, though.

If you mention the number "6,000" anywhere in your reply to me, I'm leaving this thread.

And yes, there is great evidence for the Big Bang, but my point was no real visual evidence, just like.... macro-evolution.

The only thing conclusively proven by a fossil is that its dead; everything else is conjecture. Many animals have similar features, but that could just as well point to a common Designer, not ancestor.

That is just such baloney. Repeat what you just said to any paleontologist and they will laugh you out of their fossil-dig.

If you don't observe it happening, its not science...period.

More baloney. That's just not true. So many scientific theories are very strongly supported, but have not been observed. You can't make erroneous claims like that as if it's factual.

No, because there's no law saying anyone has to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, or remain in a class teaching Creation if they don't want to.

Really? The principal will let a kid walk out of his classroom and play hooky? A kid won't be cruelly ostracized for refusing to pledge to his flag? C'mon. I had you there and you know it.

And people don't have to swear upon a Bible before testifying in court?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I swear, if I had a dollar for every time I had to tell a creationist to look up what the word theory means in a scientific context...

Tell you what, Josh, why don't you go test out the theory of gravity some time? It's just a theory, right?

 

[The Question]

There's a difference between forcing and giving people equal options. Presenting macro-evolution as the theory it is would be an excellent start.

But the theory it is is something that has been proven to be completely factually true as much as anything can be proven to be true. It's not a hypothesis, it is a fact of nature.

Scientists use the word "theory" differently from how it is used colloquially. To quote the USNAS: "The formal scientific definition of theory is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence."

They use the word "hypothesis" to mean what normal folks mean when they say theory.

The "theory" of evolution is a fact. It has been proven to be true. Deal with it.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

You could easily point out that from a historical standpoint, no one in the first century denied Jesus' tomb was empty;

You know this how? You went back in time to the first century and conducted a survey of everyone in the surrounding area?

they just fought over how it got that way. Describing the impossibility of twelve men even budging that stone would be a good start, plus the guards being incapable of sleeping and knowing what happened at the same time. Then of course, there's the question of whether anyone in their right mind would allow themselves to be murdered, over something they know is a lie.

Great. I guess that means you'd be cool with public-schools also teaching classes about the Koran! I wouldn't want us to suppress the poor Muslim students.

Just one problem: the Bible claims to be historical fact, unlike Greek, Norse, or Roman mythology.

That's super for the Bible! But a teacher doesn't have to parrot that claim.

Don't shoot the messenger; I didn't decide where all those guys were born.

It was just a curious thing to post quotes from three Scottish atheists in row. Were you reading up about atheists in Scotland? Atheists are like Christians. Not all of them share the exact same views. Some are militant and anti-Christian, sure. But Christians also have the Westboro Baptist Church and groups like that, but I'm not going to put up quotes by them, because it's pretty irrelevant and non-representative.

 

[The Question]

You know this how? You went back in time to the first century and conducted a survey of everyone in the surrounding area?




Great. I guess that means you'd be cool with public-schools also teaching classes about the Koran! I wouldn't want us to suppress the poor Muslim students.



That's super for the Bible! But a teacher doesn't have to parrot that claim.



It was just a curious thing to post quotes from three Scottish atheists in row. Were you reading up about atheists in Scotland? Atheists are like Christians. Not all of them share the exact same views. Some are militant and anti-Christian, sure. But Christians also have the Westboro Baptist Church and groups like that, but I'm not going to put up quotes by them, because it's pretty irrelevant and non-representative.

Especially non representative because those guys have nothing to do with the American public school system.

 

[warhorse78]

I don't need to believe something to get it and relay the concept to other people. Teaching doesn't require belief. Belief certainly adds passion which can aid in a persons ability to relay information and aid in teaching, but it isn't required to teach someone.

So true. That's how politicians work!

 

[warhorse78]

No, but it does mean not forcing your ideas on other people who might not accept them when those ideas can't be proven.

You mean like 20 years ago, I was forced to learn the planets of the solar system, and one of them was named Pluto (even though it apparently wasn't proven yet) and now Pluto is no longer a planet, but some distant gigantic star.

 

[Thundercrack85]

You mean like 20 years ago, I was forced to learn the planets of the solar system, and one of them was named Pluto (even though it apparently wasn't proven yet) and now Pluto is no longer a planet, but some distant gigantic star.

God I hope this is meant to be a joke.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

You mean like 20 years ago, I was forced to learn the planets of the solar system, and one of them was named Pluto (even though it apparently wasn't proven yet) and now Pluto is no longer a planet, but some distant gigantic star.

Thinking it's still a planet is infinitely less embarrassing and inaccurate than what you just called it.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I'm all for religion being taught in a history-like context. Finding out there was more than one god was the first step to me realizing they were manmade.

Of course, people would protest the hell out of a comparative religions class.

I'd actually be very interested in a comparative religions class. I believe in the Bible to the best of my ability, but I'd love to learn more about other faiths and how they compare.

 

[DarkSentinel]

I'd actually be very interested in a comparative religions class. I believe in the Bible to the best of my ability, but I'd love to learn more about other faiths and how they compare.

This.

Religion/mythology is fascinating.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

That teacher is a prick for the cross move he did to that young student's arm
But to be considered disobedient and fired cause he keeps bible quotes in class, isn't this against free speech?

About evolution, there is a thread dedicated to that subject
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=391713&highlight=evolution

 

[NickNitro]

and even branded a Christian cross onto a student's arm with a high-voltage coil)

How the **** did he not get thrown in jail? Is this overlooked by everyone?

 

[Teelie]

That teacher is a prick for the cross move he did to that young student's arm
But to be considered disobedient and fired cause he keeps bible quotes in class, isn't this against free speech?

Not when it's a public school setting like this. It's no more permissible to preach your particular religion than it is to advocate drug use on school grounds.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

and even branded a Christian cross onto a student's arm with a high-voltage coil)

How the **** did he not get thrown in jail? Is this overlooked by everyone?

That's the problem, they don't seem to count this more important reason to get on the man, they hit him on lesser -as they would probably suggest- worries

Not when it's a public school setting like this. It's no more permissible to preach your particular religion than it is to advocate drug use on school grounds.

Do they at least allow it as a friendly topic discussed in free time of both the teacher and certain students asking?

 

[Teelie]

I don't know if that's allowed. I've never read anything on that. It would be a grey area at best. Probably depending on several factors like the location, situation, the depth and length of the discussion. Age of the students.

I have been in a situation where a teacher (in college where even if it were legal, it was against university policy so he was risking anything from a reprimand to his job) contradicted the course curriculum and expoused his personal religious beliefs on a subject that were objectionable to his own during class.

It was an uncomfortable situation I did not like but I was also an adult and I could seperate his beliefs and opinions from what the course (a psychology one) were meant to teach. Ultimately it had no effect on the course itself because he also explained what he was meant to teach and made it clear what he believed was his personal beliefs alone.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

That teacher is a prick for the cross move he did to that young student's arm
But to be considered disobedient and fired cause he keeps bible quotes in class, isn't this against free speech?

About evolution, there is a thread dedicated to that subject
http://forums.superherohype.com/showthread.php?t=391713&highlight=evolution

Keeping bible quotes in class, while somewhat unprofessional, is nowhere near as bad as actually teaching creationism in science-class. I'm pretty sure he was fired for the latter, not the former (and the whole branding children thing too).

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Keeping bible quotes in class, while somewhat unprofessional, is nowhere near as bad as actually teaching creationism in science-class. I'm pretty sure he was fired for the latter, not the former (and the whole branding children thing too).

I'd feel sorry for him if not for doing that

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I'd feel sorry for him if not for doing that

Why?


He wasn't teaching what he was supposed to teach. I wouldn't send my kid to a math class to get an English lesson, and I sure wouldn't send my kid to a science class to get a religious studies lesson. He sounds like an absolute horrible teacher, even aside from the branding.

 

[Spider-Aziz]

Why?


He wasn't teaching what he was supposed to teach. I wouldn't send my kid to a math class to get an English lesson, and I sure wouldn't send my kid to a science class to get a religious studies lesson. He sounds like an absolute horrible teacher, even aside from the branding.

He could connect the two subjects, and there is room for improvement for him as a teacher

 

[Spider-Who?]

Looks like a freak of nature. The public education field is so screwed. Good teachers can't get hired, and bad teachers can't get fired.

Ug, that's so true. I had a perfect example of bad teachers not getting fired...in high school, my Chemistry teacher was an old man straight from India. His english was so bad that he refused to speak or even learn our names - he assigned us all a number (I was #10) which we had to use at all times in class - when taking roll, referring to other students and when writing our "names" on homework/tests (which were literally nothing more than copies of worksheets he handed out for homework the week prior). Never mind even attempting to understand his lectures...he'd get so frustrated when you asked him to repeat something.

I'm sorry, but if you're going to teach a subject like CHEMISTRY, you NEED to be able to speak the language enough that students can understand you, and you know, actually TEACH. Handing out a thick packet of worksheets to fill out as homework - and then filling that same worksheet out as the tests - is NOT teaching.

I also had a World History teacher whose teaching method was projecting a page of notes on the wall and having us copy it verbatim. He'd take role, and turn on the projector and then sit at his desk and the only time he'd move or speak was to change the page on the projector every 15 minutes; tough luck if you hadn't finished copying the other one. Each page was literally a wall of tiny hand written text: no paragraphs, no bullet points, breaks or structure of any kind. And it was obvious he'd been using the same notes for years as several spots on every page were layered with smudges, faded words, etc...he'd just take a new marker and write over the smudged parts.

Awful. Just awful.

 

[Thundercrack85]

He could connect the two subjects, and there is room for improvement for him as a teacher

Or he could just teach science in a science classroom.

See this is why I don't want people with unscientific views teaching science to kids. If you think dinosaurs and men coexisted, and that the world is 6,000 years old, you are unqualified to be a science teacher.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Or he could just teach science in a science classroom.

See this is why I don't want people with unscientific views teaching science to kids. If you think dinosaurs and men coexisted, and that the world is 6,000 years old, you are unqualified to be a science teacher.

You are unqualified to be a teacher at all.