One in the eye for intelligent design

[sithgoblin]

A SECOND publication this week by Australian National University scientists on the evolution of the eye has rebuffed intelligent design proponents who argue that such a complex organ could not have been arrived at gradually.

Paleobiologist Gavin Young discovered in a 400-million-year-old exposed former tropical reef that a fossil of a placoderm, a bone-covered predator fish, had eye casings that showed a transitional arrangement of muscles and nerves.

Earlier, ANU Centre of Excellence in Vision Science head Trevor Lamb published a paper that called the deep-sea hagfish, with primitive photoreceptors for eyes, the missing link in the evolution of the organ of sight.

Dr Young's placoderm and its visible muscle and nerve canals were evidence of an intermediate stage between jawless and jawed vertebrates, he said.

"It is transitional ... in that it is the only example among all living jawed species and all extinct jawed vertebrates where we have the combination of jaws plus a primitive eye muscle arrangement."

The eyeball was connected to the braincase by cartilage, as in modern sharks, and there was a primitive eye muscle arrangement as in living jawless fish.

Dr Young said that arrangement was different from all modern vertebrates, in which there is a consistent pattern of tiny muscles for rotating each eyeball.

Creationists and proponents of intelligent design argue that knowledge of evolution is gleaned from living creatures and that there is no historical evidence of evolution.

Dr Young said: "They would say 'all evolution is hypothetical and that all evidence is from living animals and yet you (scientists) maintain you know what happened 450 million years ago?. Where's the evidence?'.

"What's important with our fossils is that they demonstrate that something as complex as the vertebrate eye can be recovered from the fossil record from 400 million years ago.

"It shows there is a history."

The placoderm fossils were found about 10 years ago in the former reef near Lake Burrinjuck, west of Canberra.

Dr Young's findings are published in the latest edition of Biology Letters, a journal of the Royal Society, London.

I'm sure God just put it there to fool us, right?

 

[Lighthouse]

Intelligent design is damn silly. There is no way to apply a scientific method to a "designer". To paraphrase Einstein, any theory that can't be proven false has no use for science.

 

[lazur]

Intelligent design is damn silly. There is no way to apply a scientific method to a "designer". To paraphrase Einstein, any theory that can't be proven false has no use for science.

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

 

[Hotwire]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

Oddly enough, I'm with lazur on this one. The clincher for me was watching my daughter grow throughout my wife's pregnancy. Just struck me that some sort of higher power had a hand in this.

 

[psychocheeseman]

nice going sithgoblin, you started this old argument agian...

gonna get alot of angry responces...

you gotta remember the majority of peeps on here think "science" is the devil...

 

[Matt]

nice going sithgoblin, you started this old argument agian...

gonna get alot of angry responces...

you gotta remember the majority of peeps on here think "science" is the devil...

And you're pretty much baiting it, so knock it off.


Its pretty much impossible to deny evolution at this point. If you do, with all the evidence and all the proof you are essentially an idiot or a zealot. However, I do not see why evolution has to contradict with religion. I believe in both. The bible does not have to be taken as literal.

 

[rdh007]

The bible does not have to be taken as literal.

What do you mean? I can cut the hair on the sides of my head now? I don't have to boycott football because of the touching of pig flesh on Sundays? Any number of other obscure "rules" set forth by an otherwise "good book"?

I'm with Mal'Akai on this one. Once you've seen that slimy little purple head come out of a region that was formerly sacred, you've experienced 1/100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000th of God.

 

[sithgoblin]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

But evolution provides an independent mechinism for the complexity of life. No designer needed.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing.

We don't know where the Big Bang came from, or what was before it. That doesn't mean that you should make up fantasy stories because you can't think of anything better.

It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

... why?

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

There is not an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

 

[sithgoblin]

Oddly enough, I'm with lazur on this one. The clincher for me was watching my daughter grow throughout my wife's pregnancy. Just struck me that some sort of higher power had a hand in this.

Pregnancy is a beautiful thing. We like it so much because our genes have programmed us to. If we didn't love our offspring, and feel compelled to look after it, we would not survive as a species. Hence our feelings of love and affection for family and friends.

 

[SuperFerret]

I'm sure God just put it there to fool us, right?

Does anybody actually understand this article? What's different about the fish? It's jaw? It's eye? The muscles connecting them? How exactly does this disprove intelligent design?

 

[Danny No-Shame]

I love it when arguments like this pop up,
The replies usually fall into one of two camps:

1) I believe in a higher power that created the entire universe in a matter of days(or at most 10,000 years) for the benefit of mankind alone because we are so special and so cherished in the eyes of Him/Her/It (but usually Him) but don't contradict me because that would make you a Heathen and the only possible solution is to burn you or wait for Him/Her/It to burn you, then all of us who believed in said higher power will laugh and laugh and laugh. The point being I am right and you are wrong.

2) I believe that the universe was created by accident and that there was nothing before and nothing after. I know this because I've seen lots of TV shows, newspaper articles and scientific reports made by people who are much smarter than I am so it must be true. Also dinosaurs. yeah, that's right Churchy LaFemme, Dinosaurs! I've never seen one but everyone else bangs on about them so I'll just go along with it, and if you tell me I'm wrong then that makes you a Zealot like the Nazis or something, and when you die we'll all dance around your stupid grave that you've decorated to please a Non-Existent God-Head, you fool! The point being I am right and you are wrong.

Here's my opinion and one you don't see very often:
I have no idea where the universe came from, and i'm not about to tell anyone that what they believe is wrong, because the fact is, there is not a creature on the entire planet who is more qualified than any other, to tell you the answer to the great mystery. Not The Pope, Not The Dalai Lama, Not Me, Not Anyone. Because we are all as clueless as each other.

So go ahead and have your pointless squabbles, I'll be in the back, rolling a fattie and partying like it's 1999 with all the hot agnostic chicks.

Rave on.

 

[lazur]

But evolution provides an independent mechinism for the complexity of life. No designer needed.

Evolution was created by a Creator. Why do living organisms evolve at all? Why does gravity exist? Why does it get hot or cold? Why does fire produce heat instead of cold?

We know that gravity exists because of mass. But why does mass work that way? We look at living organisms and how they evolve, and we explain why by claiming that everything 'adapts' to its environment. But *why* does everything adapt to its environment? We look at fire and understand that it generates heat. However, if fire produced cold instead of heat, our understanding of how it works would be the same as it is now - which is to basically say 'it is what it is'.

No one can answer these questions at the most basic level. There's a design. Things were made to be a certain way, and we acknowledge things the way they are because we experience them the way they are, and then we call 'science' what is no more than our own basic understanding of how things work. "Well it must work that way because of that or this or some other thing." But at the core level, we are completely clueless.

We don't know where the Big Bang came from, or what was before it. That doesn't mean that you should make up fantasy stories because you can't think of anything better.

It seems to me that believing we all just appeared out of nowhere after some cosmic big bang is more like fantasy than believing in a creator.

Creation is the nature of all things. We, as humans, create many things every day. We create cars, we create new kinds of animals through genetics, we create babies with each other, we create art, we create music, etc.

Yet when it comes to our own existence, or the existence of life itself, we deny creation. We reduce ourselves, and the wonder and beauty of what life is, to nothing, as if life itself means nothing because it just happened to occur out of nowhere.

If there was a big bang, and I believe there was, someone caused it and all that followed it, and someone is still watching over it today.

There is not an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

I have no problem agreeing to disagree.

 

[Danny No-Shame]

I suppose the above response just proves my point.

 

[lazur]

I suppose the above response just proves my point.

Pointing out the obvious doesn't really endear your point to anyone. People have beliefs. The nuances of those beliefs are what make for interesting discussion.

If you don't like the discussion, don't participate.

 

[bell110]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

The universe it huge. I don't think the complexity of our world would be that rare in the universe. We're already finding "similar" planets to our own right now. With improved technology, we might find that we aren't as special as we'd like to believe.

 

[lazur]

The universe it huge. I don't think the complexity of our world would be that rare in the universe. We're already finding "similar" planets to our own right now. With improved technology, we might find that we aren't as special as we'd like to believe.

We haven't found any similar planets to our own. I just watched a special on Discovery Science about how we're trying to find planets similar to our own, but how our technology isn't yet advanced enough to pinpoint such planets.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I am saying that the circumstances responsible for the existence of our planet are so remarkable that if there are other planets out there like ours, the chances of our ever discovering them are slim to none.

 

[bell110]

And you're pretty much baiting it, so knock it off.


Its pretty much impossible to deny evolution at this point. If you do, with all the evidence and all the proof you are essentially an idiot or a zealot. However, I do not see why evolution has to contradict with religion. I believe in both. The bible does not have to be taken as literal.

I always believed that god "created" us THROUGH evolution. The way I see it, how would you explain evolution to the people who wrote the bible? That's why the bible never specifically says evolution.

 

[bell110]

We haven't found any similar planets to our own. I just watched a special on Discovery Science about how we're trying to find planets similar to our own, but how our technology isn't yet advanced enough to pinpoint such planets.

I'm not saying they don't exist, but I am saying that the circumstances responsible for the existence of our planet are so remarkable that if there are other planets out there like ours, the chances of our ever discovering them are slim to none.

That's why I put similar in qoutation marks. We've found planets roughly the same size, in roughly the same distance in orbit around a similar sized star. Given those rough approximations, it's theoretically possible for those plants to have liquid water on them. Of course our limited technology prevents direct observation, but considering that only 15 years ago we had no evidence of extrasolar planets at all, I wouldn't be surprise if we find very earth like planets before I die, and I hope we do.

 

[lazur]

That's why I put similar in qoutation marks. We've found planets roughly the same size, in roughly the same distance in orbit around a similar sized star. Given those rough approximations, it's theoretically possible for those plants to have liquid water on them. Of course our limited technology prevents direct observation, but considering that only 15 years ago we had no evidence of extrasolar planets at all, I wouldn't be surprise if we find very earth like planets before I die, and I hope we do.

The show I watched was describing how stars 'wobble' due to the gravitational force of planets orbiting them, but they had not yet discovered *any* planets the size of ours. They found one planet that's about 10 times the size of Jupiter, and due to how some stars are 'wobbling' they only speculate that Earth-sized planets could be orbiting them, but they have no approximation on distance from said stars.

Not sure what show you watched, or where you read about this stuff, but I'd be interested in finding out .

 

[Danny No-Shame]

Hey, I love an intelligent debate as much as the next know it all but my point is NOBODY knows the answers, you just BELIEVE.
Faith is a wonderful thing but pretending that you've somehow discovered something that the rest of us haven't is just arrogant.

We know nothing.

I suppose my opinions don't count as much as someone who 'knows' they're right.

 

[The Lizard]

you gotta remember the majority of peeps on here think "science" is the devil...

I realize that statement is just trolling, but I have to wonder why certain posters seem to think that conservative Christians are actually in the majority on the SHH forums.

I've seen several otherwise observant posters make this claim, and I just have to call BS on it. Yes, there is a vocal minority that pops up to strongly support the fundamentalist Christian view in any religious argument, just like there is a vocal minority that pops up to strongly condemn religious beliefs of any kind.

The rest of the majority seem to have beliefs that fall somewhere in the middle, which includes moderate religious beliefs and open-minded agnosticism. After all, the most common age group here is college-aged people -- do you actually think there's a conservative Christian majority there?

 

[Sandman138]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

You are still arguing over a philosophical abstract that really doesn't effect evolution one way or the other. And we both know that there is a difference between belief in a creator and the Intelligent Design movement. Your argument belongs in a philosophy class, not a science/biology class.

 

[The Chairman]

And you're pretty much baiting it, so knock it off.


Its pretty much impossible to deny evolution at this point. If you do, with all the evidence and all the proof you are essentially an idiot or a zealot. However, I do not see why evolution has to contradict with religion. I believe in both. The bible does not have to be taken as literal.

Matt, you've more or less summed up my beliefs as well.

And considering my previous experiences in threads like these, this is the extent of my posting in here, most likely. I hate these topics (I sometimes wish they'd just lock them because they wind up with the same results).

The bottom line, there is nothing about evolution that disproves God or any form of a creator at all.

 

[Casius--J]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

Pretty much nailed it for me there, i agree with you 100%

 

[Hollow Wood Director]

We don't know where the Big Bang came from, or what was before it.

I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that scientists theorised time or spacial time as it is most commonly called was created after the "Big Bang" Space & time are considered a single construct and the probability of one existing without the other is impossible. I think they call this hypothesis... " Relativistic " theory of time, which ties time to the velocity of an object with the speed of light principles and how gravity distorts and slows down time.

So when we say we don't know where the Big Bang came from, we're applying poor interpretation to a theory that cannot support this notion.

There cannot be a place the Big Bang came from because that would imply space and time existed before it was created. I beleive from what I remember of this the singularity from which this universe was created could not support time or space.

So maybe there was nothing before our universe sprung to life, no time, no space, nothing.

Scrap that last line...there is no such thing as before our universe.