One in the eye for intelligent design

[Mr Sparkle]

The universe it huge. I don't think the complexity of our world would be that rare in the universe. We're already finding "similar" planets to our own right now. With improved technology, we might find that we aren't as special as we'd like to believe.

but really , in the end, that's what it's all about, isn't it?
you see for years I've said that evolution does not threaten religion in any way.
if anything it would be testament to how fantastic the creator's reach was, how his plan could manifest in infinitesimal ways through vast spans of time.
but do I believe we're some special creation?
NO.
because really, it's weird when people who have faith in a magic creating man in the sky point at people who believe in Aliens and say "ha! what a nut bag!" and then you think "since there is a possibility of life on mars, microscopic as it is, isn't there more proof for alien life than there is for god?"

but yeah, this is not about that.
this is the key here, the fact that evolution was proven or not, does not disprove God, because frankly, with language and knowledge as it is right now, that is impossible.
so the faithful can keep on being faithful, and rejoice in the fact that their chosen deity is able to work structures and systems as complex as these through mere whims.
if anything, for the faithful, evolution should underscore the fact that ther is a god.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

You know what's funny, it's just a language problem, but if you watch nature shows on PBS, etc. the narrators always use "design".

I just saw it the other day, "the cheetah's eyes are designed to see well at night."
"This animals has a long tail designed to help him keep his balnce when swinging from limb to limb."

They should stop saying that.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

Yes, from a philosophical standpoint, the happy accident of life certainly seems to have some higher purpose or higher divine pressence beyond it. That said, however, there is a lot of evidence, particularly in the physics of sub atomic particles, that suggests this universe could have just appeared from "nothing".

 

[Mr Sparkle]

You know what's funny, it's just a language problem, but if you watch nature shows on PBS, etc. the narrators always use "design".

I just saw it the other day, "the cheetah's eyes are designed to see well at night."
"This animals has a long tail designed to help him keep his balnce when swinging from limb to limb."

They should stop saying that.

man, I just thought about the fact of God being a "designer" because all the designers I know are self important, and a little ego-maniacal.

this explains much.

 

[The Lizard]

So maybe there was nothing before our universe sprung to life, no time, no space, nothing.

Scrap that last line...there is no such thing as before our universe.

But...that's where Galactus is from.

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

man, I just thought about the fact of God being a "designer" because all the designers I know are self important, and a little ego-maniacal.

this explains much.

Have you seen that series of videos on youtube where God is like George Lucas designing the universe?

Some of them are really funny, but, much like the Mormonism episode of South Park, the funniest ones are where they just stick to the Biblical account.

Hahaha, can't remember what they're called so you'd have as good luck finding them as I would, but, recommended.

 

[ShadowBoxing]

South Park changes quite a bit of that Mormon story actually. I think as comic fanboys might say they stick to the "heart" of the story, but the real story itself is more drawn out, and even a little crazier in spots.

I think they also missed some comedy gold by not going into that whole anti-Native American/pro-white aspect of the religion.

 

[bell110]

http://www.space.com/spacenews/archive06/Small_013006.html

Here's one article from a year ago about a planet only 5.5 times the size of Earth and only 2.5 as far from it's star then we are. It's a red dwarf star though.

 

[DV8]

I believe in evolution to a certain extent . . . but I also believe in a higher power; I'll tell you this much; I don't think people evolved from apes, that's for damn sure . . . we're too drastically different . . . and if people evolved from apes, why would apes still be around they would have no purpose in the evolutionary food chain . . . .

now, people evolving from apes because aliens came and spliced ape DNA with theirs, that's a different story

 

[Mr Sparkle]

Have you seen that series of videos on youtube where God is like George Lucas designing the universe?

I must watch these.
the platipus is like the Jar Jar of the universe.

 

[Carcharodon]

I believe in evolution to a certain extent . . . but I also believe in a higher power; I'll tell you this much; I don't think people evolved from apes, that's for damn sure . . . we're too drastically different . . . and if people evolved from apes, why would apes still be around they would have no purpose in the evolutionary food chain . . . .

now, people evolving from apes because aliens came and spliced ape DNA with theirs, that's a different story

Stop...just...stop. Your argument that apes should no longer be around simply because of the evolutionary appearance of man more than proves that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're way outclassed in this debate.

 

[Carcharodon]

As for the original point of this thread: I can think of at least three instances where the eye was supposed to have evolved, and there are probably many more.

For instance, invertebrate eyes and the vertebrate eye are so fundamentally different that they are thought to have evolved separately. The basic anatomy of, say, the eye of a squid differs sharply from our own.

Then (The Lizard should love this one), the monitor-like lizards that are supposed to have evolved into today's modern snakes at one point lost the eye transitionally only to have it re-developed in modern snakes. Once again, a snake's eye differs physiologically from those of other vertebrates.

The thing is, they eye isn't as complex as we'd like to believe. They likely started as, "eye-spots," or pigmented photoreceptors, really just good enough for light detection (i.e., telling the difference between day and night). From there an infolded cavity formed (a lot like a blastula in our own development), and from there the cells became more and more specialized through evolutionary time (rods, cones, retina, etc). Concurrent with this specialization, we likely would have seen eyes that are similar to our own...with a pupil, cornea, and iris...all of which have specialized (yet not unique) purposes dealing with relatively common environments.

Look up the, "Pineal eye," for an example of a transitional form...we have one, and in particular a group of reptiles known as the Sphenodonts have a very functional form of one.

 

[Zen]

I believe in evolution to a certain extent . . . but I also believe in a higher power; I'll tell you this much; I don't think people evolved from apes, that's for damn sure . . . we're too drastically different . . . and if people evolved from apes, why would apes still be around they would have no purpose in the evolutionary food chain . . . .

now, people evolving from apes because aliens came and spliced ape DNA with theirs, that's a different story

 

[Wilhelm-Scream]

South Park changes quite a bit of that Mormon story actually. I think as comic fanboys might say they stick to the "heart" of the story, but the real story itself is more drawn out, and even a little crazier in spots.

PedanticBoxing.....It's a cartoon.

I meant, the funniest parts...are the parts...where they just tell you the facts.

There's no way they could possibly fit all of the idiocy of Mormonism in one episode, of course, and I agree...almost criminal not to mention the racist aspects.

 

[DV8]

Stop...just...stop. Your argument that apes should no longer be around simply because of the evolutionary appearance of man more than proves that you have no idea what you're talking about. You're way outclassed in this debate.

why? please . . . 'educate' me

I was just expressing my personal opinions, anyway . . . I wasn't really trying to have a debate about the scientific implications of evolution . . .

I'm just saying if I were mother nature, and there was such a thing as evolution, why would I keep a lesser life form around if it 'evolved' into something 'better'?

some peoples have larger hearts, to pump more oxygen into their blood because they live in higher altitudes, etc., etc., I can see people evolving in those lesser degrees, but to think a completely different species evolved from apes in the blink of an eye in a historical sense just doesn't seem to make sense . . .

 

[kainedamo]

I'm not going to go all philosophical on this topic, but I fail to see how anyone can believe that there's no higher power at work in the universe. The complexity of our world alone, and just the fact that it even exists and how perfectly it's oriented in our solar system, is proof enough for me.

At the end of the day, either everything came from something or everything came from nothing. It takes *more* faith to believe everything came from nothing.

There is an intelligent 'Creator' - your belief or disbelief doesn't change anything.

But this really has nothing to do with the theory of intelligent design or evolution.

Whos to say the "intelligent creator" didn't set about using evolution?

Intelligent designers believe that *poof* animals just popped into existence. Whereas evolutionists believe (and can prove) that animals have evolved over the span of millions and millions of years.

 

[kainedamo]

Does anybody actually understand this article? What's different about the fish? It's jaw? It's eye? The muscles connecting them? How exactly does this disprove intelligent design?

The eye is one of the most complex body parts there is.

For a long time, intelligent designers have been saying something so complex must have been designed intelligently.

This latest discovery is like a 'link', a find that is millions of years old, that shows a far less complex eye - therefore putting more evidence into the idea that eyes have evolved over millions of years.

 

[Carcharodon]

why? please . . . 'educate' me

I was just expressing my personal opinions, anyway . . . I wasn't really trying to have a debate about the scientific implications of evolution . . .

I'm just saying if I were mother nature, and there was such a thing as evolution, why would I keep a lesser life form around if it 'evolved' into something 'better'?

some peoples have larger hearts, to pump more oxygen into their blood because they live in higher altitudes, etc., etc., I can see people evolving in those lesser degrees, but to think a completely different species evolved from apes in the blink of an eye in a historical sense just doesn't seem to make sense . . .

It wasn't the blink of an eye, though. Besides, evolutionary time takes place over much larger periods than historical time, even during so-called, "punctuated equilibrium."

You were expressing an opinion out of ignorance. That's all I'm saying. Your problem lies in a common misconception: that the ancestral species are somehow inferior, or, as you put it, "lesser." Apes do extremely well in their environment. At the end of the day, in evolutionary terms, that's what it comes down to. That's why they're successful (ignoring the influence of human beings, an admittedly dominant competitor in nearly all terrestrial environments).

 

[Carcharodon]

Does anybody actually understand this article? What's different about the fish? It's jaw? It's eye? The muscles connecting them? How exactly does this disprove intelligent design?

It doesn't. Nothing can disprove intelligent design. That's why it's not a legitimate scientific theory.

It does, however, support evolutionary theory...which, I'm sure you could understand, comes as a bit of a blow to intelligent design.

 

[kainedamo]

It doesn't. Nothing can disprove intelligent design. That's why it's not a legitimate scientific theory.

It does, however, support evolutionary theory...which, I'm sure you could understand, comes as a bit of a blow to intelligent design.

I guess you're right in that "nothing can disprove intelligent design".

Intelligent designers always put the burden of prove on evolutionists, while offering no proof of their own, and then denying any evolution proof put on the table.

 

[DV8]

It wasn't the blink of an eye, though. Besides, evolutionary time takes place over much larger periods than historical time, even during so-called, "punctuated equilibrium."

You were expressing an opinion out of ignorance. That's all I'm saying. Your problem lies in a common misconception: that the ancestral species are somehow inferior, or, as you put it, "lesser." Apes do extremely well in their environment. At the end of the day, in evolutionary terms, that's what it comes down to. That's why they're successful (ignoring the influence of human beings, an admittedly dominant competitor in nearly all terrestrial environments).

Saying apes shouldn't be around is indeed ingnorant, and despite what I wrote in my first post, that wasn't really what I was getting at . . .

in terms of the scope of life on earth, the apparent evolution of man from ape was in the blink of an eye . . . because we don't have the 'missing link'

my point is, I just don't feel that humans could have evolved so drastically into the species we are from apes, and if we did, how come we haven't seen evidence of apes continuing to evolve into other species . . . and how come we haven't evolved into something higher on an evolutionary scale?

something just doesn't make sense . . . every other living animal on earth is in tune with their environment except people, which leads me to believe that we aren't exclusively evolved from one thing of this earth

we came from aliens . . . and by that I mean that I seriously feel the aliens had a hand in creating modern man . . .

 

[Mr Sparkle]

hahahaha! I just noticed how dirty the thread title is.

 

[bell110]

why? please . . . 'educate' me

I was just expressing my personal opinions, anyway . . . I wasn't really trying to have a debate about the scientific implications of evolution . . .

I'm just saying if I were mother nature, and there was such a thing as evolution, why would I keep a lesser life form around if it 'evolved' into something 'better'?

some peoples have larger hearts, to pump more oxygen into their blood because they live in higher altitudes, etc., etc., I can see people evolving in those lesser degrees, but to think a completely different species evolved from apes in the blink of an eye in a historical sense just doesn't seem to make sense . . .

That's a common misconception about evolution. Apes didn't change into humans like a caterpillar changes into a butterfly. We branched off from "ape-like" creatures. These creatures didn't look exactly like a chimp or gorrilla or human. As for nature keeping the "lesser" creatures around, just because something evolves to be more efficient then it's predecessor, doesn't necissarily mean the lesser creature should/would die out. If that were the case, there would be no reptile or amphibians. Just look at crocodiles and sharks. The have remained relatively unchanged for millions of years because they are effective at what they do.

I'll give you an example of macroevolution. Say you have a creature that lived millions of years ago in Africa that lived off trees. It's starting to get hot down there, and tree are dying off. The trees that are left only have leaves at the top. These creatures over many generations give birth to taller and taller creatures. The runts of these creatures die off and dont reproduce because they can't reach the food. Tallest of the tall do better because they can reach the food that their smaller brothers can't. Slowly, through genetic mutations, their necks, legs, and tongues get longer and longer in each successive generation until today we have the giraffe. It's a completely new species then the creature it use to be.

So you believe in microevolution, like the fact that humans have different skin colors is a result of the intensity of the sun radition in regards to their geographic location?

 

[kainedamo]

Saying apes shouldn't be around is indeed ingnorant, and despite what I wrote in my first post, that wasn't really what I was getting at . . .

in terms of the scope of life on earth, the apparent evolution of man from ape was in the blink of an eye . . . because we don't have the 'missing link'

We've found evidence of prehistoric man. I won't go into specifics because I don't know a great deal about it. But we have indeed found humans that aren't built like us, that are very old.

my point is, I just don't feel that humans could have evolved so drastically into the species we are from apes, and if we did, how come we haven't seen evidence of apes continuing to evolve into other species . . . and how come we haven't evolved into something higher on an evolutionary scale?

Do they actually teach you guys evolution in school or what???

Number 1: Evolution takes millions and millions of years. Human beings haven't even been around that long. How the **** are we gonna "witness" evolution taking place in the very small time we've had the science to do so?

Number 2: Evolutionary change is subtle and veeeerry very gradual.

something just doesn't make sense . . . every other living animal on earth is in tune with their environment except people, which leads me to believe that we aren't exclusively evolved from one thing of this earth

we came from aliens . . . and by that I mean that I seriously feel the aliens had a hand in creating modern man . . .

Do you have proof of this? There is evidence of evolution.

 

[Carcharodon]

in terms of the scope of life on earth, the apparent evolution of man from ape was in the blink of an eye . . . because we don't have the 'missing link'

my point is, I just don't feel that humans could have evolved so drastically into the species we are from apes, and if we did, how come we haven't seen evidence of apes continuing to evolve into other species . . . and how come we haven't evolved into something higher on an evolutionary scale?

We have several transitional forms, though. A lot, as a matter of fact. Just because we haven't found that one transitional species that constitutes the, "missing link," (a misnomer, by the way) doesn't mean that there had to be some huge evolutionary leap.

Do you have any idea what conditions are necessary to form a fossil? People sort of take that for granted because there are so many (the vast majority of which were aquatic in origin, actually)...but compared to the number of species and organisms that have existed on earth over time? Not everything gets fossilized. Some things are going to get lost in the geologic record as well. That argument is really tired.

I could go on for hours as to why we haven't, "evolved," (though we can see physiological differences between the human population 1,000 years ago and now...we're bigger, for example) and it has to do with our ability to use tools and adapt without having to undergo some physiological change (i.e., the selective pressure to do so is incredibly reduced). You can check out Vegeta1000's thread about the End of the World for my thoughts on that...though I'm by no means an expert, I have to be honest.

Besides, I've already explained why we wouldn't necessarily see evidence of modern apes evolving into other forms: they do very well in the environment they're in. Without some disturbance or some rapid and random occurrence of genetic drift, we likely wouldn't see a transition. Furthermore, evolution takes place over a scale of time that would make it impossible for us to truly observe it (especially when you consider we've only been observing the phenomenon scientifically for about 200 years or so).

We may not get the chance, if we drive them to extinction...but I digress.