"Only a Prime can defeat me" The Fallen Thread!

Discussion in 'Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen' started by AVEITWITHJAMON, Jul 3, 2009.

  1. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    The Guard accuses me of doing equations on the power levels of the TF. But just because Megatron was frozen or whatever, do we have to calculate how much power Prime lost living all this millenia? Come on, lets not get pedantic here.
    Its a franchise with a good and a bad guy who are approximately on the same level. Maybe Megatron was frozen, maybe Prime did some burnouts on the streets, do we really need to get into all of this? Do we need to destroy the premise because the director chose a certain plot? That subplot of the frozen Megatron was great imho but if you re gonna go and be a Nolan...

    In ROTF Prime and the autobots basically owned everyone. Megatron brought a huge army, a huge decepticon and a god and lost every one of them. The autobots lost an old man and their weakest robot (arcee). Big whoop.
    Of course the decepticons are supposed to lose and obviously we dont care for their generic soldiers as much because none of them talks or does anything, but maybe the autobots should at least come badly wounded out of it.

    My point is that the first movie was more balanced.
     
    #76
  2. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    Megatron has defeated Prime in the comics simply from having more energon, this is what happened in the first movie IMO. With Megatron frozen for thousands of years, he had all this energy stored up were ass Prime went though a lot of action in the first movie.

    Demolishor didnt have the chance to grab him because while Prime was shooting him in the head, Ironhide was shooting the **** out of his wheel/s. Prime didnt defeat Demolishor alone, Ironhide helped.

    Ultra Magnus has beaten Galvatron, yet Magnus isnt as powerful as Optimus, never has been, never will be, and Rodimus growing bigger means nothing, Sentinal Prime was twice the size of Megatron yet Megatron ripped him apart in the comics, size means nothing, Grindor was bigger than Prime also in the movie.

    It wasnt a gun out of nowhere, there is actually such a thing as a rail gun in real life that is used on battle ships. Obviously the movie version fantasises the weapon a bit, but believe they are powerful as **** in real life as well. It is a weapon that actually exists.

    Without Prime's ruthless side the Autobots would have lost long ago, he always has had and always should have a ruthless side. In the most recent storyline in the comics, he tosses Galvatron into a lava pit to stop Galvatron destroying the universe after he betrays Nova Prime. Galvatron dies from this, what Prime did in the movie was no different.

    He tried to rip Prime's head off, he gets hold of it at one point, but Prime stops him, Prime, with the combination of Jetfire's parts, was just to much for him. Not to mention The Fallen was clearly not at full power if he had to leach Energon from baby TF's on the ship.

    I loved Prime in the movie, it totally made up for his poor showing in the first, and I doubt Megatron was as powerful as the first movie because he was dead for 2 years, thats different than being frozen remember.

    The Autobots had 10 times as many humans helping them as in the first movie, not to mention things like airstrikes and rail guns which they couldnt use in the first movie, this movie was just as balanced as the first, the battle was just on a bigger scale.
     
    #77
  3. Rock Sexton

    Rock Sexton Well-Known Member

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    Excellent points. Yet another absurd element of the movie to me.
     
    #78
  4. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    LOL :hehe:. I didnt see Ironhide's shots do much damage.
    Its a different thing killing someone in battle, or killing someone because he will destroy the universe and its a whole other thing to execute a prisoner of war or to go all Hostel on your opponent. "Give me your face".
    WHAT THE HELL!
    Then thats where the movie fails. They bring Devastator in and make him a vacuum cleaner, they bring a TF demigod and make him underpowered because of lack of energon... If you like it, then you will love it if Unicron is beaten by Prime in the third amirite? Prime will punch him and he ll die.
    Because.... Really now, do you have to make assumptions that suit you and the film? So Megatron could be beaten by Bumblebee now?
    Yeah, the humans used guns on them and the decepticons didnt even flinch. But then... BAM they used their magic rail gun. Why dont they put that on tanks or give one to optimus? One shot killed Devastator, with two-three they ll kill unicron.

    The majority in this forum claims that the fallen was underpowered and Prime was overpowered. I think its objective. Why do people keep defending this **** movie? You think bay has enough brain in his head to care about the balance of the movie? His only direction to ILM for the forest fight was that Prime should at some point rip Grindor's face in two. Do you really think he thought about the balance? In the first one he presented the decepticons as real threats, hard to beat, killing machines and now they were a joke.

    I didnt say that it was a size issue. But i do think that because RotRod has the Matrix, it makes him just as powerful.
    As for the math on this, sure Magnus is a great warrior and beating Galvatron says a lot. Besides, havent you seen the villain job to the good guys before? In any case, Galvatron is supposed to be better than Megatron. Its stated in the movie and i think that makes him a very powerful decepticon. The fact that it all gets mixed up is because G1 was never too thought out.
     
    #79
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2009
  5. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot! :woot:
     
    #80
  6. SymbioteKal-El

    SymbioteKal-El Well-Known Member

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    The Fallen was a mixed bag for me, I would have liked him to be as omnipotent as he was in the comics but then how would have defeated him. In the comics its through Jetfire using his brains and Grimlock using his brawn, although The Fallen totally owned Grimlock.

    So overall The Fallen was a mixed bag, and we should have spent more time with him really but the movie also had to showcase Megatron, Starscream and Soundwave so it was difficult.
     
    #81
  7. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    Ha ha, sorry about that. But yeah, Prime didnt take Demolisher down on his own.

    So the final battle in ROTF isnt a battle? The Fallen was threatening to destory not only the autobots new adopted planet, but kill every living thing on it as well, after seeing your own planet destroyed and "Whole generations lost" as Prime said, thats more than enough of reason to go Hostel on an opponent IMO.

    Sorry, but i feel you are being a bit ridiculous here, if Prime defeats Unicron EVER in Transformers, thats the day I stop reading/watching it. The Fallen wasnt a demigod, he was a Prime who turned evil. And no matter who you are, if you dont have much energy, you wont be that strong.

    When did I say anything remotely close to that? All I said was size doesnt matter, you need the power to with it as well, not to mention bravery.

    Also, in the comics and cartoon, Prime and Megatron are essentially equals (and Megatron's cannon is no more powerful than Prime's), they have defeated each in the past due to circumstances and how much energon they have had. Its no different in the movies. Being dead for 2 years isnt going to make you powerful.


    Devastator wasnt even the size of a pyramid, Unicron is the size of a planet, a rail gun would be useless. And as I told you before there is such thing as a rail gun, and it IS that big and powerful.

    Just because the majority in the forum says I have to? And in fact the majority in the forum loved Prime in the movie. I keep defending it because I LIKED it, crazy concept huh? A different opinion! Give me ROTF over the ****** likes of the FF movies, Elektra, the Punisher movies, and especially X-Men 3, the ultimate **** movie.

    I liked it, and I have no problem with you not liking it so give me the same courtesy.

    The Matrix boosts their power, but it depends on how powerful they were before becoming a Prime, IMO Optimus was superior.

    So whats your problem with all of this happening in the movies? Its all about the situations, etc that the characters are in at that point.
     
    #82
  8. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    No, thats more than enough reason to kill an opponent.
    No, but why would it depower you?
    I was exaggerating. Even if that thing exists, well it took out one of the most notorious and dangerous TF ever in one shot. I would have preferred it if he went down by a dozen of autobots or another big bot.

    Ok, sorry about that. I apologize.
    If Rodimus is Galvatron's main opponent and takes him down frequently, i say that makes him pretty powerful.
     
    #83
  9. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    And he did kill him, brutally you say, but factor in the fact that The Fallen also betrayed Prime's ancestor's and disgraced The Prime name, and I dont think he did act over the top. Without ripping his face off, he wouldnt have had the chance to rip out and crush his spark.

    Look what happened to Jetfire in stasis lock, he wasnt even dead, yet could barely move or transform when he first was awakened. Being dead is bound to take energy away from you, especially the way Megatron went out, he took a big hit with the Allspark.

    Plus he was re-built from other TF's parts, i'm sure that was a factor in him not being as strong also.

    It does exist, and is used by battleships to take out large area's from HUGE distances, it is a damn powerful gun.

    No problems :up:

    Rodimus was no slouch, but fights arent just about strength, power, etc, its about tactics also. The reason Hot Rod lasted that long against Galvatron in the movie, was from running, hiding, and hitting him fast and then getting out of there. Once Galvatron got his hands him, the fight was over if the Matrix hadnt been there.

    Also, in the comics at the time, which everyone agreed were better written, Ultra Magnus was Galvatron's main opponent.
     
    #84
  10. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    Jetfire is just too old. I think that the stasis lock that he was in is the equivalent of an old man passing in his sleep.
    As for Megatron, i think that he took some much needed metal from another robot. I dont think that his metal is better than the other robots. And besides, it seems to me that the robots are like plaster. They can morph into almost everything. Once those pieces were attached to Meg, they became part of him like a piece of plaster merges with a bigger without any problems.
    The production team wanted to redesign him and that was a nice way of doing it. I wouldnt get so deep as to ponder whether the way it happened affected him. Megatron IMHO is as powerful as he was in TF2007.
    Also, if i were Bay, i wouldnt make this a common practice in the franchise or the robots would start eating each other to grow in size and power. Nobody would be the same again.
    After the film, the G1 series continued with weekly episodes with the new cast. Rodimus as the leader of the autobots often took on Galvatron and beaten him. The battle you refer to was his first battle as Rodimus. He was like a college basketball player in his first NBA game.

    In any case, i think that the franchise should let other robots shine as well. I mean, Prime's predecessors in the leadership were just as legendary as he is. Rodimus should have a fair chance. As i said before, Prime was once young and inexperienced too.
     
    #85
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2009
  11. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    But taking parts from a less powerful Decepticon and putting them on Megatron had to have an effect on his power. He lost a lot of parts in TF1, including an arm and a leg. If they were replaced with parts from a less powerful TF then it must have effected his overall strength.

    Plus, Jetfire was old because he hadnt had energon for so long. If he had gotten a bit dose of Energon, his parts wouldnt have been rusting, etc.

    He wasnt actually Rodimus for most of the fight though, he was Hot Rod, and the way he survived was by adopting a hit and run strategy that worked well until Galvatron got his hands on him. If the Matrix wasnt there, Hot Rod would have died.

    I think it has let other robots shine, for me, the most heroic part of TF1 was Jazz vs Megatron, and the most emotional parts of both movies involved Bumblebee. Ironhide and the Twins got plenty of money shots as well in both TF1 and TF2 in Ironhide's case.

    But Prime and Megatron are the big daddies, and this is why they got the most screentime in the movie IMO. And i disagree about Prime's predecessors being as legendary as he is, for one, the other Prime's were never involved in the Autobot-Decepticon war. Sentinal Prime was initially, but died pretty quickly at the hands of Megatron.
     
    #86
  12. The Guard

    The Guard Well-Known Member

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    So it's The Matrix that made Hot Rod special. So there's nothing special about Hot Rod. So any autobot with The Matrix could beat Galvatron!
     
    #87
  13. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    Meh.... as i said, i view it differently. Like the metal is plaster or something. It certainly has similar qualities the way they transform into anything...
    But, even if you look at people, would transplanting an army from an old man to a younger affect him so much? I dunno. I dont look so much in to it. If anything, Megatron looked more powerful this time around with that huge claw and cannon he had.
    But i was talking about Rodimus and not Hot Rod. We discussed earlier how the Matrix makes him bigger and more powerful. Also, since the robots age (Kup, Jetfire) it would be logical that a 25 year old robot (analogically) wouldnt be as good a fighter as a 40 year old veteran (Prime).
    Well if someone should have stood up to Megatron, that should have been Ironhide. What the hell was Jazz thinking? It wasnt an accident, but a decision. I know he is second in command but unfortunately they had made him too small and weak. Of course other robots shine, both in the movies and the other parts of the franchise but all i am saying is that Rodimus or whoever should have an equal chance to reach legendary status as a leader. Its not that Prime is who he is because he beats everybody. He cant beat Tripticon! Prime isnt inherently Jesus, he earned his status. So other robots could and should be able to do it.

    In the movies, the war started during Prime's leadership so his predecessors wouldnt have done anything, but in the general franchise i think that they were pretty good. Prime is the daddy of course.
    Watch "the hardest burden to bear". Its on youtube. Rodimus loses the matrix and the decepticons get it. Scourge (if i remember the name correctly, that blue decepticon that looks like an old man) gets it and he puts it in his chest. The matrix mutates him into robo-Hulk and he beats the hell out of Galvatron and two of his minions. The rest of the decepticons bow to him out of fear. In the end, HotRod accepts the burden of leadership and his destiny and engages Scourge who he beats easier than Prime did the Fallen (so you see that G1 isnt really realistic when it comes to power levels. Its who the writers chose to beat who) and gets it back becoming Rodimus again.
    I think that HotRod was a naive rookie who became leader only because he touched it first or because he was chosen or whatever. He wasnt really powerful or anything. If you look at Prime, he remains the same even without the Matrix but in HotRod's case i suppose they had to transform him so that the autobot leader isnt the weakest of the bunch. The G1 series depicts his early years in leadership which are bound to be full of mistakes and self esteem issues.
    So take all that as you will. Either through the matrix or whatever, i liked the guy. He was less of a rookie than animated Prime is right now. God i hate that show...
     
    #88
  14. The Caped Knight

    The Caped Knight Shield Avenger

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    #89
  15. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    I like the second one. He looks buff.
    And what does that thing attacking the aircraft carrier transform into? It looks like it TF into a sub or something.

    Anyway, i think that they made the right call when they decided to make the Primes different and more... whatever they are anyway...
     
    #90
  16. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    Looking more powerful is nothing, as you said if you were able to attach an old man's arm to a younger mans arm, of course it would effect his strength, not to mention agility and recovery time.

    If you view it differently there is nothing left to discuss and we should just agree to disagree on this point.

    Well Jetfire in the cartoon wasnt aged like he was in the movie, Kup was an old-timer because of the amount of crap he went through.

    Jazz was the leader at that point, he didnt know if Prime was incapacitated or dead, so he took on the responsibility, if the other Autobots had done the same and not *****ed out, Jazz would still be alive. For me, Jazz still has the most heroic moment in the franchise.

    We have only gotten two movies with Optimus, and you want him replaced already? Anyway, Rodimus Prime put the death knell on the franchise, the ratings dropped considerably when Rodimus took over from Optimus, that tells you he simply wasnt as good or interesting a character.

    In the movie universe, there was a Decepticon-Autobot war before Optimus ever existed, ROTF explain this, The Fallen was the first Decepticon, and Optimus wasnt the leader, Megatron was, for all intents and purposes.

    I just dont think Rodimus is that good of a character to be honest, he is no Optimus, and I have even found Sentinal and Nova Prime much more interesting in the comics. To me he is a better character as Hot Rod.
     
    #91
  17. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    I simply think that Megatron was in need of metal. I dont think he got weaker because it came from another TF. He was as powerful as before. Now the fact that Bay had him and everyone else job to Optimus has nothing to do with the plot. In a Nolan movie maybe, but not in a Bay one. Megatron had to die in the first film so that it could end but since Megatron is so iconic, he cant stay dead, plus they needed to give him a new design, so they did the transplant. Do you really have to reach so far?
    What does this have to do with what i was saying?
    Indeed he was heroic, but it was a mistake from Bay. Maybe Jazz was second in command because of wisdom, strategic ability but he certainly wasnt because of his fighting ability. He was tiny and weak. So the fact that he took on Megatron, while valiant, it was stupid. But i am ok with it. As a leader, he had to do his duty, buy some time for his troops to regroup.
    I dont want to replace him. Have you not been reading what i post? Bruce is always the better and more interesting Batman, but since he is so perfect, i personally dont mind a story about a future batman who is different from Bruce. Like Dick or Terry. So i dont mind if in the future, Rodimus takes over and we see some of him. They can keep making movies about Optimus, but maybe after 10000 Optimus adventures, his time is up and someone else can take it from there. Just because at some point Bruce gets old and someone else takes over, it doesnt mean that you cant make infinite stories about him. You can have all those and the future version and enjoy both. Thats the allure of elseworlds stories as well.

    Then its a matter of how you do it. IMHO, Bruce will always be batman even in the year 3000 AD. Terry will just be batman in the year 3040. So maybe Prime can always be our contemporary and we can read stories about his future successor. Or, they can do it the Flash way, where the new guy takes over and they stop writing about the old one. In any case, i dont want to let go of Optimus, but i can enjoy a story about his future successor... So option A for me.
    Personally, i dont know what the **** is going on in the Bayverse because bay never takes the time to tell a coherent story. In the first movie Prime tells us that at some point, Megatron and his followers snapped and started killing robots. Cybertron was a peaceful planet ruled by Meg and Prime until then. Obviously, the Fallen wasnt the one that started the war. Megatron was. Maybe the fallen corrupted Meg, but the point is that he was entombed, something that the movie was too busy to show, so you have to read the comics. Now, since the 6 primes died and the other one was entombed (by who i dont know) then where did the other robots come from? Anyway, the point is.... oh **** it...
    Btw, if they ever make a movie that flashbacks to the start of the war and the fall of Megatron, i would rather if the justification wasnt the Fallen. "boohoohoo the fallen corrupted me" sounds easy, cliche and unimaginative. I'd rather if Megatron turns evil after some events and character development. It would be nice if we actually saw something besides explosions.
    I respect your opinion, but as i said before, i can enjoy the countless stories of Prime that keep coming out, and still enjoy a story about the future when he isnt around and his successor is trying to follow his footsteps since he was so great. What can i tell you, i enjoy diversity.

    Also, all the other Primes you refer to are badass like Optimus. Well if you re gonna replace Prime, shouldnt you replace him with someone different? And if you recall, in one of my earlier posts i was talking about an episode where Rodimus is struggling with his responsibilities and Kup explains that the same thing happened when a young Optimus first assumed command. So dont you think that Rodimus is just like a young Optimus? Did you want his replacement to be equal to Prime? What would have been the point? And i dont expect the kids to understand this, because in their minds (and in mine back then) that new kid sucks and Prime was so wise and badass. But as an adult, i can see how it works and for me, its like watching Terry trying to be a good Batman after Bruce. I was angry back then about that ****** show with a stupid kid batman, but it turns out it was great and i only had to stop being a ******** fanboy and accept some change. And if anything, it wasnt change, nothing changed for batman. It was just a story about his distant future...
     
    #92
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2009
  18. AVEITWITHJAMON

    AVEITWITHJAMON Cloud kicks ass

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    The Fallen should definately have been in the movie more, I know they wanted to give Megatron and Starscream more screen-time, but you have to give the title villain more screen time also, he barely did anything in the final battle.
     
    #93
  19. Mr. Earle

    Mr. Earle Well-Known Member

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    [YT]JEdZ-yjxHLI&feature=fvw[/YT]
    You'll find this video relevant to the title. This is why that "only a Prime can defeat me" was ridiculous.
     
    #94
  20. sto_vo_kor_2000

    sto_vo_kor_2000 Well-Known Member

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    Not any autobot could use the power of the matrix or be empowered by it.
     
    #95

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