Origin stories? Who needs them?

[The Major]

Chris:

Nolan did explain an origin for Ra's. It was just really brief. It could have been a lie to Bruce, too.

His wife got murdered and he wants to avenge her or something like that.

 

[BMM]

Wrong! There are thousands of people who didn't see Begins and went to see TDK. Thanks to Ledger's Joker.
TDK success is in NO WAY correlated to Begins.

That's not necessarily true at all. The reception of one movie absolutely lends itself to interest in a sequel. If Batman Begins sucked and bombed, you can bet people would be less willing to give The Dark Knight a chance, regardless of Ledger's involvement. Luckily, it didn't, and it's because of Batman Begins warm reception that people began showing interest in and a subsequent fervor for The Dark Knight long before Ledger was even cast as the Joker.

 

[cerealkiller182]

I would think that if you wanted to see TDK but havnt seen Batman Begins that you would rent the DVD or something.

 

[Chris Wallace]

We got a motive for Ra's, not an origin.

 

[Chris Wallace]

That's not necessarily true at all. The reception of one movie absolutely lends itself to interest in a sequel. If Batman Begins sucked and bombed, you can bet people would be less willing to give The Dark Knight a chance, regardless of Ledger's involvement. Luckily, it didn't, and it's because of Batman Begins warm reception that people began showing interest in and a subsequent fervor for The Dark Knight long before Ledger was even cast as the Joker.

Luca's living in his own little world. He doesn't justify most of what he says, & when he does, he gives bad examples & makes statements that don't hold up to even a little bit of scrutiny. I don't think anyone here believes that either way-origin every time or never at all-is truly the way to go. If Luca really hated origin stories as much as he claims he wouldn't bother touching anything comic related. Hell, he even criticized the flashback scenes in the opening credits of . 90% of all original comic book movies have some type of origin story involved, & I refuse to believe that he hated all but the scant few that don't.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

They are useless 'cause they're not needed.

Err, 'useless' and 'not needed' are pretty much synonyms. That's not a reason.
I don’t remember how it’s called now but that’s definitely a fallacy. ‘Roundabout fallacy’ or something…
It's like saying 'drugs are bad because...they are bad.’

We got a motive for Ra's, not an origin.

That’s exactly right.
So if we can tell that without an origin, why not try it more often?
What are origins but explanations of motives and wardrobe?

 

[cerealkiller182]

^^Redundancy

 

[Chris Wallace]

What works for villains doesn't necessarily apply to heroes. As I said, Nolan seems intent on taking the focus off the bad guys.
I think an origin is only unnecessary if showing it would hurt the pacing of the story. An example there would be Blade. He came into his powers when he was 13. He was trained as a kid. Jumping straight to him being the bad@$$ that he is as an adult was a smart move. Same pretty much goes for Black Panther. And there's no high & holy reason why T'Challa chose the panther as his icon; it was a family tradition.
Now at the same time, some movies perhaps could have been done without the origin, but it didn't hurt them to use it. Could they have started off Iron Man w/him already having the arc reactor in his chest, & maybe done a quick flashback to explain it? (A la "Incredible Hulk") Sure they could've. But there was nothing wrong with bringing us in on the ground floor either.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

Thanks cereal.

And except your first sentence, I absolutely agree with you Chris.
But it’s not about ‘if it’s not broken, don’t fix it’.
There’s no reason to shy away from origins just as there’s no reason not to tryout new ways of telling the story. You ask ‘Why?’ I ask ‘Why not?’

What works for villains doesn't necessarily apply to heroes.

But in your own examples of Blade and Hulk it worked fine, did it not?
Now this is just my current impression of your views but I don’t see why Batman should be held so sacred.
Nolan has a different approach, I get it, but I enjoyed Burton just as well.

 

[Chris Wallace]

My biggest problem with Burton's Batman is that over the course of four films, I felt we NEVER got to know Bruce Wayne at all. He started out almost a supporting character & got diminished as the series went along. I've stated why I felt his origin was crucial, because he had a lot of options on how to deal with his grief & a lot went into molding him into Batman. He didn't get bitten by a bat & wake up with bat-powers. No, he built the persona from the ground up & I feel we were cheated in the past by not being able to see that process unfold.

 

[cerealkiller182]

I thought Bruce Wayne was fine when Burton was in control. Wayne and batman were obviously two different people. When Schumacher took over Vals Wayne was to much batman and Clooneys Batman was too much wayne

 

[The Major]

Cereal:

Burton's Wayne was more like Batman then Nolan's.

He was always very serious, stood up to bad guys face to face and swore he'd take them down, with Joker he attacked in full view of Vale, with Vale he seemed to completely became a psycho really, ordinary people thought he was a psychotic weirdo not a playboy, in Joker's first appearance he stood still in a crowd (who were panicking) and calm while Joker's goons shot people a few feet from him, Bruce acted very weird in front of the public during Joker's entire first attack.

That is not a good job of hiding his secret identity at all.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Cereal:

Burton's Wayne was more like Batman then Nolan's.

He was always very serious, stood up to bad guys faces and swore he'd take them down, with Joker he attacked in full view of Vale, ordinary people thought he was a psychotic weirdo not a playboy, in Joker's first appearance he stood still in a crowd (who were panicking) and calm while Joker's goons shot people a few feet from him, Bruce acted very weird in front of the public during Joker's entire first attack.

That is not a good job of hiding his secret identity at all.

But he was goofy and clumsy talking with Vale, Selina, and at the party that Vale first meets him (Alfred followed him picking things up for him). The dinner with Vale in the dining room and making plans with Selina when they were admiring some holiday display in a shop window. These are just off the top of my head though

Its not the theatrics we have come to know Batman to do as Bruce Wayne but theres a certain subltey to it.

 

[The Major]

But he was goofy and clumsy talking with Vale, Selina, and at the party that Vale first meets him (Alfred followed him picking things up for him). The dinner with Vale in the dining room and making plans with Selina when they were admiring some holiday display in a shop window. These are just off the top of my head though

There were still more times he acted like Batman would then not. Many scenes, as I said, involved threatening the bad guys.

He did do a better job with Selina the Vale, of course.

 

[cerealkiller182]

Threatening the bad guy with a fire poker acting like a complete idiot. Its far from being Batman, more like a lame attempt at heroics.

The point is whether they could have done more or not doesnt matter because they still tried and had plenty of effective Wayne moments as far as Im concerned

 

[cerealkiller182]

Threatening the bad guy with a fire poker acting like a complete idiot. Its far from being Batman, more like a lame attempt at heroics.

The point is whether they could have done more or not doesnt matter because they still tried and had plenty of effective Wayne moments as far as Im concerned

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

My biggest problem with Burton's Batman is that over the course of four films, I felt we NEVER got to know Bruce Wayne at all. He started out almost a supporting character & got diminished as the series went along. I've stated why I felt his origin was crucial, because he had a lot of options on how to deal with his grief & a lot went into molding him into Batman. He didn't get bitten by a bat & wake up with bat-powers. No, he built the persona from the ground up & I feel we were cheated in the past by not being able to see that process unfold.

Sure, that’s your taste and that’s fine.
But that shouldn’t imply that Burton’s approach was wrong. It was just different. It was his own version of Batman.
I wasn’t particularly keen on what they did with Dock Ock in Spider-Man 2 but as time passed I stopped caring because, hey, I still have my own Dock Ock in my comic books to read. On the other hand I enjoyed Sam’s version of Sandman, as opposed to his simple thug counterpart from the comics.
My point is - taste is not the issue here. It’s whether or not origin-less stories are as uncommon as they seem and are they worthy of more exploration in movies.

Threatening the bad guy with a fire poker acting like a complete idiot. Its far from being Batman, more like a lame attempt at heroics.

Exactly. No matter how casual people may perceive this kind of action - heroic or dangerously stupid, it doesn’t mean that a person has some secret identity.
And frankly the whole double life thing doesn’t really attract me that much. Of course if they choose their identities to be secret, I don’t expect them to jump into action without their masks on but trying to be someone you’re not is just overkill. So Burton’s Wayne wasn’t the playboy type millionaire, big deal.

What I also like to see is writers taking some serious steps into different directions for the same story.
Like imagine if Sam Raimi would’ve killed off Mary Jane?
These are the kind of unexpected twists I’d enjoy watching an adaptation for.
Seeing as adaptations are perceived to be as faithful as possible as a rule, this gives the adapter many opportunities on how to shock the audience.

 

[The Major]

Threatening the bad guy with a fire poker acting like a complete idiot. Its far from being Batman, more like a lame attempt at heroics.

The point of Bruce Wayne is to be the mask to throw people off that he's a super-hero.

Threatening the Joker with a fire poker does not help that image of being a defenseless playboy. It contradicts it.

It doesn't help combining it with the other moments of Wayne like acting like a normal person while the Joker kills people in front of the press. Heck, even with Vale not noticing how weird he was most of the time it didn't take her long to figure out he was Batman in the movie!

The point is whether they could have done more or not doesnt matter because they still tried and had plenty of effective Wayne moments as far as Im concerned

I disagree.

 

[cerealkiller182]

The point of Bruce Wayne is to be the mask to throw people off that he's a super-hero.

Threatening the Joker with a fire poker does not help that image of being a defenseless playboy. It contradicts it.

Defenseless? Why does he have to act defenseless? he just has to be stupid. Any a-hole can get in a bar fight but to to truly defend one self like Batman would takes skill. All he did was lash out

It doesn't help combining it with the other moments of Wayne like acting like a normal person while the Joker kills people in front of the press. Heck, even with Vale not noticing how weird he was most of the time it didn't take her long to figure out he was Batman in the movie!

Its called shock. It can happen to anyone. Its not what was going on in the scene but easily explained that way.

 

[The Major]

Defenseless? Why does he have to act defenseless?

Being a defenseless weakling makes a better secret identity then being a person who lashes out at armed psychos.

he just has to be stupid.

Yes, he was stupid. For getting witnesses to notice he can get violent around dangerous people at a moments notice.

Any a-hole can get in a bar fight but to to truly defend one self like Batman would takes skill.

This wasn't a bar fight. He threatened a crazy psycho, who had killed the mayor in broad daylight not to long ago right in front of him, who was with a few armed thugs.

All he did was lash out

He didn't just lash out with no planning. He armed himself with a poker before doing anything IIRC.

Its called shock. It can happen to anyone.

It wasn't shock. He looked calm and distant.

Its not what was going on in the scene

Exactly.

but easily explained that way.

No, it can't. You've already admitted he didn't act like he was in shock.

 

[samsnee]

There's a reason why the second film (X2, Spider-man 2, TDK) are usually better and more fun. They're not bogged down by exposition and introductions, so we can cut right to the conflicts and skip the "great responsibility" part.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Cereal:

Burton's Wayne was more like Batman then Nolan's.

He was always very serious, stood up to bad guys face to face and swore he'd take them down, with Joker he attacked in full view of Vale, with Vale he seemed to completely became a psycho really, ordinary people thought he was a psychotic weirdo not a playboy, in Joker's first appearance he stood still in a crowd (who were panicking) and calm while Joker's goons shot people a few feet from him, Bruce acted very weird in front of the public during Joker's entire first attack.

That is not a good job of hiding his secret identity at all.

He couldn't function in any part of the mansion except the cave. I somewhat forgave his behavior in front of City Hall, as I thought it had a lot to do w/the shock of seeing Napier alive. I think something about the sight of how truly sociopathic Joker was helped trigger the memory of the man who killed his parents. That and the "dance with the devil" line confirmed it. But at the same time I do feel he was sloppy in many ways where his secret was concerned. And I absolutely LOATHE the scene in Vicki's apartment. It was just stupid through & through. First off, he goes there to tell his most potentially damaging secret to a prominent media figure who ONLY CAME TO GOTHAM TO TRACK DOWN THE BATMAN-on the strength of one date? Nevermind the fact that she's still pissed at him for pulling the "hit-it-&-quit-it" on her. What's to stop her from hopping on the phone w/Knox the second he leaves? And then, he's fumbling and saying one moronic line after the other, showing none of the strength he possessed when she confronted him in the cave. Then Joker shows up, for reasons unknown & equally illogical, Bruce confronts him, saying more s*** that doesn't make any sense-but feels confident in doing so b/c of the makeup tray tucked in his shirt. A lot of good that would've done if this grinning homicidal maniac decided to shoot him in the head or use a more powerful gun. Or use his flower. The whole scene I could've done without.

 

[Chris Wallace]

Sure, that’s your taste and that’s fine.
But that shouldn’t imply that Burton’s approach was wrong. It was just different. It was his own version of Batman.
I wasn’t particularly keen on what they did with Dock Ock in Spider-Man 2 but as time passed I stopped caring because, hey, I still have my own Dock Ock in my comic books to read. On the other hand I enjoyed Sam’s version of Sandman, as opposed to his simple thug counterpart from the comics.
My point is - taste is not the issue here. It’s whether or not origin-less stories are as uncommon as they seem and are they worthy of more exploration in movies.


Exactly. No matter how casual people may perceive this kind of action - heroic or dangerously stupid, it doesn’t mean that a person has some secret identity.
And frankly the whole double life thing doesn’t really attract me that much. Of course if they choose their identities to be secret, I don’t expect them to jump into action without their masks on but trying to be someone you’re not is just overkill. So Burton’s Wayne wasn’t the playboy type millionaire, big deal.

What I also like to see is writers taking some serious steps into different directions for the same story.
Like imagine if Sam Raimi would’ve killed off Mary Jane?
These are the kind of unexpected twists I’d enjoy watching an adaptation for.
Seeing as adaptations are perceived to be as faithful as possible as a rule, this gives the adapter many opportunities on how to shock the audience.

I never said that Burton's approach was completely wrong. I did, however, feel like there were some things I didn't agree with.
It seems to me the reason why we're harping so much on Batman is b/c he is the ONLY superhero who has been successfully sold on film both with and without an origin story. So it's the only true perspective for both sides of the argument.

 

[Trevor Goodchild]

That’s an excellent point.
Believe it or not, I’ve never seen any Superman other than Returns.
How are those movies in the origin department?

 

[The Major]

He couldn't function in any part of the mansion except the cave. I somewhat forgave his behavior in front of City Hall, as I thought it had a lot to do w/the shock of seeing Napier alive. I think something about the sight of how truly sociopathic Joker was helped trigger the memory of the man who killed his parents. That and the "dance with the devil" line confirmed it. But at the same time I do feel he was sloppy in many ways where his secret was concerned. And I absolutely LOATHE the scene in Vicki's apartment. It was just stupid through & through. First off, he goes there to tell his most potentially damaging secret to a prominent media figure who ONLY CAME TO GOTHAM TO TRACK DOWN THE BATMAN-on the strength of one date? Nevermind the fact that she's still pissed at him for pulling the "hit-it-&-quit-it" on her. What's to stop her from hopping on the phone w/Knox the second he leaves? And then, he's fumbling and saying one moronic line after the other, showing none of the strength he possessed when she confronted him in the cave. Then Joker shows up, for reasons unknown & equally illogical, Bruce confronts him, saying more s*** that doesn't make any sense-but feels confident in doing so b/c of the makeup tray tucked in his shirt. A lot of good that would've done if this grinning homicidal maniac decided to shoot him in the head or use a more powerful gun. Or use his flower. The whole scene I could've done without.

I agree absolutely with this.