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Paramount's Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles - - Part 11

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Did you not see the lair filled with arcade games, pool tables, and skateboarding ramps? Shredder was using that wealth to bribe the kids. He was building his future army.

Yes, but for what?! I get trying to entice the kids, but what was the plan once they grew into his Ninja army? More stealing, right? We're told The Foot was originally a gang of ninja thieves in Japan.

Okay, so I get trying to attract the young and disenfranchised. But what does Shredder ultimately want?
 
Did you not see the lair filled with arcade games, pool tables, and skateboarding ramps? Shredder was using that wealth to bribe the kids. He was building his future army.

Yeah we get that. You're expressing the obvious, we're just saying that's not a very deep motivation. We don't even know why the guy wants money or an army. He just does.
 
Nah, I am stating that a non-sustainable economic plan is not a thriving crime syndicate. You're filling in holes the movie doesn't, which I applaud as I do the same thing, but we're talking about the flick not Shredder (a fictional character) 10 years down the road with elaborate charts and graphs of his profits on powerpoint. We get no exploitation as to why he's doing that. You filled that in. Which is good, I think it's unnecessary to ever explain everything in full-on detail, but that same courtesy is not being extended to 2014.

Why do I say this? By your logic Government officials and people on wall street already rich as **** wouldn't break the law to get richer. The reason he didn't just hold it hostage was to make the company look like a good guy and continuously have people sucking the company's cajones for years to come (if we want to talk 10 year plan) and make him and Sachs look like saviors. Continuous, sustainable power. A reliance, just as the cult leader mentality, only with an entire city.

Again, the film's flaw is it never explains this, neither does 1990. Same flaw, that's why it's paperthin. We can fill in whatever we want, but it doesn't make the movies any better for it.

The movie doesn't need to "address" Shredder's plan because the scene that shows us bribed youth, and expensive lair, and children receiving ninja training makes it all incredibly obvious. A man with few resources using crime to attain wealth is a stronger motivation than rich people in charge of a legitimate corporation turning to terrorism to acquire even more wealth.
 
Ha, like rich people wanting to get richer is so unbelievable and outrageous a motivation...

220px-MichaelBay08.jpg
 
Yes, but for what?! I get trying to entice the kids, but what was the plan once they grew into his Ninja army? More stealing, right? We're told The Foot was originally a gang of ninja thieves in Japan.

Okay, so I get trying to attract the young and disenfranchised. But what does Shredder ultimately want?

Wealth and power. Which makes sense because in the 1990 film, he doesn't have that, or at least very little. 2014 Shredder has loads of it.
 
A man with few resources using crime to attain wealth is a stronger motivation than rich people in charge of a legitimate corporation turning to terrorism to acquire even more wealth.

...Not really, actually. Not in 2014 at least. This happens on a daily basis. Jesus, Iron Man even explored the fact that many rich people actually do buy into corrupt organizations and even fund terrorism to get what they want. It's actually pretty common place for rich people to break the law to get richer. Whether through violence or theft. Even Bill Clinton, a great president, sold weapons to terrorist organizations--so did Reagan. Not really that far-fetched. Kind of cliche in today's cinema? Heck yeah. Overplayed? Heck yeah! But not far-fetched.

And your right, it didn't need to explain it, neither did 2014. You're acting like I need one, I don't. I don't mind a paper thin villain. I like them. A villain is as strong as his presence, to which both were great to me. Ooze, which I love, has no presence in its villain.

Legit every complaint I've heard lobbed at Shredder (outside of the legit Hamato/Oroku missing tie) is pretty... eh, to me. Most is hypocrisy based on not liking the flick and how it presented it or nostalgia and needing to find a reason.

Just like Shredder not murdering Splinter, which he doesn't in 1990 either. Holds a blade to his chin and goes "Tell me or I'll kill you!" "Nope.jpg LOL" "FINE THEN I'LL LET YOU HANG HERE AND LIVE BYE"
 
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You say you didn't need Shredder's plan explained, yet you previously said the Foot solely existed to steal, that all they did was petty crime like stealing TVs, and that he had an unsustainable economic plan. Yet his plan was incredibly solid. You can try to trash the 1990 movie all you like to try to make the 2014 movie look better, but it really doesn't change a thing.

And I never claimed that 2014 Shredder's plan was impossible or too outlandish, I'm saying that due to it being unnecessary and redundant, it's limp next to the 1990 movie's Shredder.
 
I think 1990 Shredder had more of a mystique and an allure, but I think 2014 Shredder was more hateable and felt like a genuine threat. And sue me, but I actually really enjoyed Sachs in this movie as a co-villain, I thought Fichner was having a blast and just hamming it up.

Appearance-wise, I love the old Shredder and the classic look more hands down. But given the size of the turtles in this version, it made sense to go with a bigger, robo-Shredder.
 
You say you didn't need Shredder's plan explained, yet you previously said the Foot solely existed to steal, that all they did was petty crime like stealing TVs, and that he had an unsustainable economic plan. Yet his plan was incredibly solid. You can try to trash the 1990 movie all you like to try to make the 2014 movie look better, but it really doesn't change a thing.

And I never claimed that 2014 Shredder's plan was impossible or too outlandish, I'm saying that due to it being unnecessary and redundant, it's limp next to the 1990 movie's Shredder.

You're acting like the people on this board you hate with this comment. I find 1990 a masterpiece. It is unsustainable in the real world, that is not how you start organized crime and cults using this tactic collapse in on themselves pretty easily with small congregations. The real world also doesn't have 5'5 talking Turtles that do ninjutsu that don't do ninjutsu because they are wearing colored headbands and practicing karate instead making pop-culture references. I didn't need it explained as I know what you thought as well, and I get what it was going for even if it is not realistic (and I don't care)... but it doesn't show it. It's not an actual motivation presented in the narrative. We hardly know Oroku. We don't know why he jumps ship from Japan after losing his chica and then starts organized crime in NYC.

Literally none of this is explained in the given narrative. And it doesn't need to be because, as fans, we're already acquainted with it. (Which is what I prefer.)

I've trashed nothing, I've disagreed with you. I have literally no bad things to say about TMNT 1 or Ooze. I probably suck their ****s more than most fans would care to admit and can't find any real "faults" that would make me "trash" them. (And yeah, I am saying that about Ooze even which is probably my favorite.)

TMNT 3. I'll trash 3 all day. If you really want me to talk **** let's talk TMNT 3.

2014 I trashed after the first viewing, took pretty much all of it back after the second though.
 
You're acting like the people on this board you hate with this comment. I find 1990 a masterpiece. It is unsustainable in the real world, that is not how you start organized crime and cults using this tactic collapse in on themselves pretty easily with small congregations. The real world also doesn't have 5'5 talking Turtles that do ninjutsu that don't do ninjutsu because they are wearing colored headbands and practicing karate instead making pop-culture references. I didn't need it explained as I know what you thought as well, and I get what it was going for even if it is not realistic (and I don't care)... but it doesn't show it. It's not an actual motivation presented in the narrative. We hardly know Oroku. We don't know why he jumps ship from Japan after losing his chica and then starts organized crime in NYC.

Literally none of this is explained in the given narrative. And it doesn't need to be because, as fans, we're already acquainted with it. (Which is what I prefer.)

I've trashed nothing, I've disagreed with you. I have literally no bad things to say about TMNT 1 or Ooze. I probably suck their ****s more than most fans would care to admit and can't find any real "faults" that would make me "trash" them. (And yeah, I am saying that about Ooze even which is probably my favorite.)

TMNT 3. I'll trash 3 all day. If you really want me to talk **** let's talk TMNT 3.

2014 I trashed after the first viewing, took pretty much all of it back after the second though.

First of all, I think you're taking "trashed" to mean something stronger than I meant it. I'm not saying you're calling the movie garbage, but you are saying Shredder's plans and motivations are. Relocating to NYC, sure that wasn't explained, but you didn't even bring that up until now. As for the "that's not how you build a crime ring" part, please tell me how Shredder's plan is inferior to the way the protagonist of Goodfellas was brought into the mob. It's told in a more cartoonish way, sure, but it's essentially the same thing. Bring kids up to depend on you, and when they're adults they'll be so deep into that way of life there's no leaving it. This doesn't need to be explained because the movie doesn't assume you're an idiot. Hell, I understood that plan when I first saw the movie, and I was six years old. Just because the movie didn't write out Shredder's plan in big, bold letters doesn't mean it's not part of the narrative. Not every movie needs to have a scene where the villain explains his plot in detail to the heroes. In fact, I wish a lot less movies would keep doing that.
 
Yeah we get that. You're expressing the obvious, we're just saying that's not a very deep motivation. We don't even know why the guy wants money or an army. He just does.

I took Shredder and the Foot as basically a more kid friendly Yakuza. They're a crime syndicate.
 
I took Shredder and the Foot as basically a more kid friendly Yakuza. They're a crime syndicate.

Of course, but why?

Why: Money and Power.

Why 2014 does what he does: Money and Power.

Why Shredder does what he does in cartoons: Who even ****ing knows half of the time?

I am a fan of this property above all else, Shredder's just a real one-note kinda guy. Out of every villain in every property I've loved he's a pretty simple man with simple wants and simple motives.
 
Meanwhile 2014 Shredder has no personal beef with Splinter whatsoever, which isn't nearly as emotionally charged.

Not all conflicts have to be 'emotionally charged' before the fact. Take TDK for instance, it's not like that film loses something because unlike in 89, joker didn't kill batman's parents. It works off of the conflict erupting in the here and now, what's more they add plenty; in that the joker/shredder does things to their loved ones in the here and now(see Rachel/Splinter). That's where this all important emotionally charging is then to be found.
It's great to point something out but it's entirely different to actually argue as to it's merits or flaws and that's what this particular issue is imo.

The idea that evil rich men don't want to become even richer is down right bogus to say the least. Any truth found in it wipes out plenty of our vast cinematic/comic book history of evil business men with evil business like plots. Starting with Luthor and Wilson Fisk into people like Obidiah Stane and so forth .

On a side note:
The shoe horning of april into their origin is no more egregious than that of tying their origin to shredder in the original. When todays kids grow up and the reboot changes this, there will no doubt then be complaints about:
"why did they remove how april has ties to the turtles, now it makes no sense and connection free. It feels random and pointless" "What's more, why did they have to connect shredder to their origin with by way of some impossibly silly super rat in japan plot..."
And the cycle continues. It will only stop when people assess things for what they are and not based on any such comparisons.
 
Of course, but why?

Why: Money and Power.

Why 2014 does what he does: Money and Power.

Why Shredder does what he does in cartoons: Who even ****ing knows half of the time?

I am a fan of this property above all else, Shredder's just a real one-note kinda guy. Out of every villain in every property I've loved he's a pretty simple man with simple wants and simple motives.

Both Shredders breathe oxygen, too. Holy ****, they're practically the same character!

Kidding aside (and I hope you know by now that I was just kidding.) I think you're going too far to deconstruct these characters to point out a parallel. Just because both characters desire money and power doesn't make them equal.
 
Both Shredders breathe oxygen, too. Holy ****, they're practically the same character!

Kidding aside (and I hope you know by now that I was just kidding.) I think you're going too far to deconstruct these characters to point out a parallel. Just because both characters desire money and power doesn't make them equal.

Never said it did. I was at first critiquing their motivations as most people are lobbing the criticism that this one lacked motivation. He had the same.

Now was he executed as well? Eh... pluses and minuses in my book. Original Shredder had a far more imposing persona in terms of this demon-like figure that haunted the city from the shadows. I ****ing dig that angle.

2014's brought a more active but less authoritative Shredder. They didn't really hammer home why he's the big guy or how much he demands respect which felt... eh. But he really, really did it for me as being an active protagonist. In the toons, he sends a lot of goons to do his dirty work. Second fight of the movie? He's in there. Third? There. Fifth? there. Every other action scene we watched him demolish them. And I freakin' loved it.

Both worked for me. I think the only Shredder that hasn't is Utrom Shredder. Just... I can't even go down that road.
 
You really can't compare traditional mobsters to a gang of ninja thieves though. Traditional mobsters crave wealth and power which is rooted in a sense of "wanting a piece of the pie", but they're usually portrayed as people who enjoy the fruits of their "labor"- fancy cars, good food, girls, etc. etc. It makes total sense why they do what they do.

A band of ninja thieves isn't the same thing. Ninjas by definition arise from peasantry and live pretty minimalist lifestyles. The idea of being a corrupted version of that and simply wanting to use impressionable kids to feed your own materialistic desires can work. But even with his plan is to indoctrinate the youth and build an empire, Oroku Saki in the original film was not really portrayed as someone would use that profit for anything other than perpetuating his own ninja empire. He seems to be drinking his own Kool-Aid and it just comes down to him thinking he's the ultimate badass and everyone should bow to him. It's complete circular logic to say his motivation was to build a Ninja empire. That's just what he was doing, that's not the WHY of it. If he has some sort of anti-American agenda and he just wants to turn New York into Japan 2.0, then...okay, but the movie still does a poor job of explaining or justifying any of that.

Again, I love the 1990 film to death but everything surrounding this new movie has caused me to get more objective about the older movies. Cause I re-watched them before I saw this, and my girlfriend and I were spotting all of this wacky, non-sensical stuff.
 
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If he has some sort of anti-American agenda and he just wants to turn New York into Japan 2.0, then...okay, but the movie still does a poor job of explaining or justifying any of that.

Exactly. I am down with that, it just never tells us why outside of "He's the Shredder".

Which I think Shredder, as a character usually shouldn't have all of his motives explained rationally. He's a lot like a wandering Samurai more than a ninja, and kind of reeks of power-lust. Which I just love about the character.
 
Exactly. I am down with that, it just never tells us why outside of "He's the Shredder".

Which I think Shredder, as a character usually shouldn't have all of his motives explained rationally. He's a lot like a wandering Samurai more than a ninja, and kind of reeks of power-lust. Which I just love about the character.

Exactly, it's that power lust! The fact that he was already in a position of significant power and influence in the new movie and yet STILL craved more made him all the more over the top evil for me.
 
Exactly, it's that power lust! The fact that he was already in a position of significant power and influence in the new movie and yet STILL craved more made him all the more over the top evil for me.

To be fair, if anyone likes the cartoons, he's already even more filthy rich than in this movie.

80s Toon: Has the technodrome, an army of robot ninjas.

2k3: Rich empire leading business man.

Nicktoons: I don't know what his position is but the dude has a freaking castle, robots, hired celeb thugs, the best hitmen, vehicles for all of them, and mechanically retracting blades.
 
OK. I watched the film yesterday and I’m compelled to share my thoughts about it.

If I could summarize it in short, it would be: “It is decent and has its moments but…”

Now I’ll try to comment about the film, but I cannot do it without mentioning some spoilers, so if you haven’t seen the film yet and don’t want to know certain important plot points, do not continue reading.

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles are my favorite heroes since childhood, so you must know that I have some strong opinions about the matter, and I can’t avoid to compare certain elements with the first film from 1990, which in my opinion is still the best movie about the characters to date, and one of my favorite films in the history of my favorite films ever.

So, the best thing about the film is the characterization of the protagonists: Leonardo, Donatello, Michelangelo and Raphael. They are presented and interpreted as one should expect, they are already established in their role, and they are familiar to the audience that knows them from other incarnations. However, during the film the characters present no progression, there is no major inner conflict to be resolved and one could say that they do not learn any important lesson in the duration of the film.

The villain of the piece, the Shredder, I felt it was a last minute addition to the plot, I mean Oroku Saki. Since the character of Eric Sacks, played by William Fitchner, was promoted as the Shredder in interviews and other promotional material since last year, I can’t help to think that this was the case. Oroku Saki as a character appears to be inserted into an almost completed film to calm down the fans that could be upset because the Shredder hadn’t a Japanese nationality, or ninja for that matter. Check the scenes with Oroku Saki and you’ll see a sense of isolation from the rest of the film.

Both the Shredder and Eric Sacks lack dimension that distinguishes them, they are almost generic. The Shredder only has one scenes that makes him compelling and is not with the Turtles. Eric Sacks doesn’t present any novelty whatsoever. I think the only interchange between the Shredder and the Turtles worth mentioning is the mocking tone he shows when he learns that the Turtles treat Splinter as a father and Splinter treats the Turtles as his sons. But not much else.

The secondary characters fulfill their role. I feel grateful that April O’Neal and the cameraman Vernon Fenwick have this “friend-zone” type of relationship instead of a more full-fledged romance, because we know that Casey Jones is the Clark Kent to April’s Lois. Other notable characters such as Karai or Bernadette Thomson (this film version of April’s boss from the 80’s cartoon, Burne Thomson) don’t add much to the plot, which is sad. Especially for Karai, since her place as the Shredder’s daughter is in a way supplanted by Eric Sacks. There is no mention for Karai being the Shredder’s daughter whatsoever.

The story has an action-comedy drive, which in itself is not bad, but considering that the first film is a very personal tale which theme is family, it is sad that this subject is treated almost superficially and worked on a light level. The humor is subversive in many occasions, which is not bad either, as seen recently in Guardians of the Galaxy or years before in the original TMNT film too. But the use of cheap gags here and there defeats some very solid attempts at humor (I’m watching you, stuck in the sewers scene! You were very funny… until the end)

And talking about action/comedy, I must say that the film has an oversaturation of pop culture references, which is understandable since the protagonists are teenagers and it is natural for them to lose themselves in this environment provided by the outside world from television to music. However it think they went overboard with it, this should have been moderated. The action is excessive too, with overlong sequences that last more than they should, but the exchanges between the characters made this scenes more bearable and fun.

A positive aspect is that the four turtles have a time to shine, which is an aspect that the previous films didn’t achieve. Almost always Donatello got the short end of the bo staff stick, and now there is a palpable balance in the overall participation to the plot from the protagonists. However, as mentioned before, the characters are almost static in their characterization, there is no sense of worthwhile character progression, thing that other films managed to do at least for one of the turtles, since in every other film they had a particular conflict to overcome.

There are many sequences that I found great. I could mention the intro of the film, the homage/parody to Batman Begins in the warehouse (or it was at the docks?), the first encounter of April with the Turtles, the first Oroku Saki scene, most of the flashback narrated by Master Splinter, the first confrontation with the Shredder(mostly because the emotional content), the camcorder scenes of April as a child with the pre-mutated turtles(which is borrowed from the recent IDW comics), the elevator scene (Which I could say it was my favorite scene in the whole film. It was hilarious!), the Raph speech at the end (though I don’t feel it was entirely earned). And Mikey song at the end, which is one of my favorites.

A detail that I would like to see expanded in a better way was the fact that Splinter narrates at the beginning that he trained the Turtles to be heroes, that one day they would save New York, or something among that lines, in contrast to previous incarnations in which the purpose goes from revenge, simple teaching or the most relatable: because of fear of the outside world so they have a chance to protect themselves. But later in the film we learn that it was indeed fear to the people on the surface and what they could do to them the drive that compels Splinter to learn and teach them ninjitsu. I would have liked to have Splinter telling the young Turtles that they would be heroes when they grow up, as a message of optimism aided by the hope in their youths and to have a better quality of life, but inside the reason is that they could stand a chance in a reasonable hostile world.

There is an important element from the mythos left outside: Hamato Yoshi isn’t mentioned and doesn’t appear anywhere in the film. Splinter ninjitsu learning is autodidact (the source being a book, from the cleverly named authors Eastman and Laird) and leads to him to adopt and appropriate the Japanese culture instead of being part of it, which weakens the Japanese motif through the film and lefts it hollow.

There are key scenes that are a homage to the first film and in one of them twists the dynamic, reverting the roles of the participants, which is kinda clever. There are a lot of holes in the plot, mostly because of the shady motivations of the villains and their plan. There is a moment where April reveals that she saved the Turtles when she was young that is stated by herself, and it feels awkward because it is stated and not show. We later learn from the Splinter flashback how it indeed happened. It could have been reworked to show only the flashback.

If I could suggest an improvement to the film, I would add Hamato Yoshi to the mix. Let’s say that he is an honorable ninjitsu master that runs down a Karate Dojo of some sort. He is blind and he is remarkably good at what he does. One night, an evolved Splinter goes out to search for some food for the still child Turtles, and is persecuted by some gang thugs. Hamato Yoshi saves him, and offers his guidance. There is a montage where they train together and he teaches him everything he knows and passes down to him his culture too. He deduces that Splinter is not a human, but he doesn’t care because he knows to judge the heart of everyone. He could die in a confrontation with the foot clan, adding a personal link to the Shredder too. We could find a way to justify his absence to his sons. Maybe they can tag along? Or he trains while the turtles are resting? I don’t know. The point here is to bring Hamato Yoshi to the table, and with him add the theme of legacy to a film that lacks a solid theme to stand.

If the first movie the theme was family, this could be about legacy. About the passing of our values to the next generation and what are those values too. Hamato Yoshi passes down his knowledge to Splinter, and he to the Turtles, and positive values. This lends to the fact that the Turtles are influenced by the culture of the city too. You could work a parallelism there with the legacy of the Shredder to Karai, a path of destruction and disease. Let’s take out the character of Eric Sacks and have his role fulfilled by the Shredder, not as a scientist, but as the head of the organization, much like in the 2k3 cartoons. Food for thought.

In general I can say that is a weak film with a lot of potential, namely because of the source material and the rich story of the characters and the elements from it that uses. But the sum of the parts does not manage to achieve a good level as a movie. I can say that the first film is vastly superior to this one (or every other film in the franchise for that matter). I just hope that in the announced sequel they tone down those mentioned excesses, correct the mistakes and maintain the positive, because I feel that most of the nucleus of the TMNT (the family theme and the characters personalities) is in the right place.

¡Cowabunga, Booyakasha or whatever the young people say nowadays!
 
The villains and their motivations were the weakest part of the film for me. But I enjoyed the Turtles, Splinter, April, and Vern. And they made up most of the screen time. So that outweighed all the stupidity of the villains and their plot for me. Hopefully the sequel can improve on the villains.
 
I hated April and Vern. I'm sure it's no surprise that I hated April, since I stand by my opinion that Fox is a horrible actress, but hating Vern surprised me, as I am a massive Will Arnett fan.
 
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The plan made sense to me:
The plan was to bass the city..and then swoop in with the cure and make crap tons of money.
 
Fox was better than I thought she would be, she had good moments and then she had not so good moments. It's a mixed to positive bag when it comes to her performance for me. I still think a more expressive actress would have been the way to go but I'm not asking for a recast or anything. And as someone who thinks we need more women leading genre films I think it was nice that Fox at least got the chance to play a lead role in a big film. I was way more concerned with the outrageously awful script, poor editing and really awful looking CGI Splinter.
 
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