Phoenix: Did you like her explanation?

xavier said he came to call it the phoenix
not that jean called it the phoenix
the simpler explanation is the writers called jeans other personality the phoenix
because if they called it another personality
people would say "where was the Phoenix?"
 
^ Xavier said, "In our sessions, she called herself The Phoenix" It wasn't Jean that said it, it was the darkside!
 
NO!!! That's what disappointed me about the Dark Phoenix plot!!!:o :down

It made Professor Xavier look cruel when his not!!!:mad:
 
phoenixforce4tc.gif

mmm so ok in the Triology we assum that this is Phoenix's trilogy?? you know its wrong topic here but here goes my take is that they should have done:

X1: how they allmet
x2: then wolverin
X3. jean dying to be the phoenix
x4. the current film

ok just had to let that out lol
 
They both fit together imo. I think the Liberty island incident made the mental blocks in Jean's slowly go away. So shehad most of them in X2, and they completely went away in X3.
 
Jean needed the phoenix power to protect her unborn twins, it was only the emperor who lead her down the wrong path. Wolvie Won Kenobi tried to help her.

Actually I have no problem with the explanation. I never once thought that the device Magneto used had any affet on her, the machine did not affect mutants. I wrote it off in X2 that she started using more of her powers, thus drawing from her potential.

I do wish that instead of utilizing a programers time to make a wall of water that they used it to make some psionic phoenix affect. Still a good movie in my book.
 
Everyone is making this a lot more complicated than it really needs to be.

X1 From a Jean Grey story point, the focus of the movie was to show how she had to try to focus, and how Prof X had helped her to use her powers.

X2 With a reference to X1, shows that her powers have become slightly more powerful, and she is having a hard time controlling it. At the end of the movie, I saw it as how she had tapped into some of her underlying power, but she was still in control, and at the end, she gave in to her power completely in order to save her friends.

X3 She was awake and in total lack of control of her powers.


I see the descriptions as great, as being a movie it doesn't have the time nor money to appropriately produce it the way the comic book did. Also, everyone wanted more and more mutants, and you cant have it both ways. My take of the whole trilogy is this...

from X1 to the end of X2 due to the events in the movie she had to reach deeper into her power, and each time she did it some of those "barriers" were slowly taken away. When she died it was a traumatic shock to her system, and in that moment she was unconscious after just unleashing her full power to save her friends, her darker side was freed, and in the entire X3 movie we see her exactly as such, in a complete and total state of chaos. Why did she kill Cyclops and Prof X? She could not control the rage, as when she gave into her emotions, good or bad, she lost control and her powers overtook her. Its just like the line u here prof X say a lot. Control your powers, dont let them control you.
 
ther was NO WAY you were going to see the original phoenix saga on film
they didnt have the budget for it
just be glad they tried to include it in some way
personally i thought famke did a great job
with very little dialogue
she personified a true predator
 
Absolute power corrupts absolutely. It's that simple. Jean kept evolving, and she had too much power to control. Or, more to the point...the part of her that was Phoenix didn't WANT her to control it. Phoenix wanted that rage, that desire, unleashed. It makes perfect sense. The psychic barriers kept Phoenix in check, but with those gone, there was nothing to stop her from taking over Jean Grey.

X-MEN showed Jean just beginning to understand and control her power. At the end of the film, Magneto's mutant machine began to evolve Jean's powers. X2 showed her powers evolving, and her taking control, as well as Phoenix taking control. X3 showed her power completely evolved, with Xavier's psychic barriers gone (perhaps Phoenix was too strong for them), and her being unable to control her powers, or her NOT WANTING to control them anymore, or herself. And therein lies the point behind Phoenix in this franchise. When you abuse your power, or succumb to it, and choose a lack of control, bad things tend to happen.

The "naming of the Phoenix" sequence" wasn't so bad, just a bit matter of fact. It shows that Xavier was aware of Jean's split personality the entire time, and of the nature of her power and control (which adds depth to their relationship). And the fact that the personality named ITSELF shows how strong it had gotten, behind the scenes. And since Jean had been wearing and using "homages" to the name/personality in previous films...it makes sense. Her personality HAD been working behind the scenes in some ways, perhaps even in her interactions with Logan all along.
 
And either way...it being explained, period, makes a lot more sense than it just HAPPENING in X2. :)
 
The Guard said:
And since she had been wearing and using "homages" to the name/personality in previous films...it makes sense.
I really like that aspect of it. I liked the explanation. It was simple, made sense and didn't take forever to explain. It also explained how she could "kill" Scott right after being reborn instead of just accidentally zapping him the way it sounded it was gonna be; it was the Phoenix side of her.
P.S. Famke's eyes really conveyed a lot of the "motivation" I felt that the Phoenix had for being destructive.
 
What happened in the third movie contradicts the first 2.

It was acknowledged in the first movie and second movie that her powers were growing. In the second movie it was said she was always cautious and at times afraid of her powers.

The psychic block idea is stupid because if they were there, Jean wouldn't be able to tap into this power or use it at all.

God forbid they actually ACKNOWLEDGE the first movie and come to the conclusion that Magneto's machine had an effect on Jean and caused her powers to expand like this and the Phoenix "entity" or personality was created as a product of this.

But no, the filmmakers and studio don't care about continuity at all.
 
J.Howlett said:
I mean, multiple personality disorder is a real thing. Who's to say a mutant doesn't have that same disease? And with that, what if the alternate personality had a different type of mutation/powers?

For this movie universe of X-Men, that's a good explaination.


True indeed. David Haller in the xmen comics had 3 different personalities all with different abilities.
 
TheVileOne said:
What happened in the third movie contradicts the first 2.

It was acknowledged in the first movie and second movie that here powers were growing. In the second movie it was said she was always cautious and at times afraid of her powers.

The psychic block idea is stupid because if they were there, Jean wouldn't be able to tap into this power or use it at all.

God forbid they actually ACKNOWLEDGE the first movie and come to the conclusion that Magneto's machine had an effect on Jean and caused her powers to expand like this and the Phoenix "entity" or personality was created as a product of this.

But no, the filmmakers and studio don't care about continuity at all.

It was never said that her powers were expanding as a direct result of the machine. All Scott said in x2 was that after Liberty island she was different. In fact it could have been do to her using Cerebro. No specific expalination was ever given.
 
TheVileOne said:
What happened in the third movie contradicts the first 2.

It was acknowledged in the first movie and second movie that here powers were growing. In the second movie it was said she was always cautious and at times afraid of her powers.

The psychic block idea is stupid because if they were there, Jean wouldn't be able to tap into this power or use it at all.

God forbid they actually ACKNOWLEDGE the first movie and come to the conclusion that Magneto's machine had an effect on Jean and caused her powers to expand like this and the Phoenix "entity" or personality was created as a product of this.

But no, the filmmakers and studio don't care about continuity at all.
Honestly, I don't see how the explanation contracticted X1 or X2, I think it enhances them. Jean's psychic blocks were not all-or-nothing, but more like a dam with cracks, a good allusion to the visuals, plot and themes of X2. Also the explanation is nice touch considering her Phoenix necklace, etc. in X2. People who have seen X1 can conclude that Magneto's machine put more cracks in Jean's psychic blocks, causing the Phoenix persona to slip out, as evidenced by her nightmares in X2, and her powers growing in X2. Her being cautious about using her powers also works well with the explanation, as it is not clear how much she consciously knew about the Phoenix, and her cautiousness could've been a result of subconscious fears.
 
While I think it is consistent with the previous movies, it still feels pulled out of nowhere... because anything like it wasn't ever hinted at in the previous movies. Being consistent with, and following directly from are two very different things.

I can live with it. But it does kind of scream "new creative team!" to me.
 
Cyke82 said:
Funny we'd have two sides of a debate then if everything was clear as crystal with no questions or problems, wouldn't you say?

When you look at the third film by itself, the second personality idea could have worked. But it's when you look back at the previous films and what had been established that the idea falls completely apart.

Xavier references in X3 that he put up the mental blocks to "isolate her powers from her conscious mind" and how the conscious Jean was always in control of her powers. The conscious Jean persona, according to Xavier, did not have access to the stronger powers because Xavier blocked them from her, an action that created the dual personality Phoenix.

We can conclude two important things from this. One, according to Xavier, the Jean Grey persona is always in control of her powers. And two, the removal of Jean's mental blocks would not only release the powers but also the personality, according to X3's explanation, since the personality was a direct result of the blocks and was hidden away with the powers.

However, in X2, in the museum scene, we see Jean incapable of controlling her telepathy and TK powers (she admits as much herself but also see the flickering televisions) with no mention or sign of this other personality. This defies the explanation provided, because we're seeing the Jean persona without control of these powers, and we're seeing the powers without the persona that supposedly goes with it.

Jean is tapping into these powers that were previously blocked from her consciousness, yet no sign of the other personality appears in the process. Nor does Xavier seem too worried about it, even though he knows full well that (1) he himself blocked these powers from her and (2) the other personality associated with these powers could very likely surface since he admits in X3 to having seen it in their private sessions.

Furthermore, when Jean calls upon these powers at the greatest level we've seen at the movie's climax, it's in an incredibly selfless and noble act - the saving of her teammates from utter destruction - and is the complete opposite of what this explanation tells us about the more powerful and rage-filled Phoenix persona. Again, no sign of the Phoenix personality even though Jean is readily and largely tapping into a vast amount of power that had, again according to X3, been blocked from her.

That doesn't even begin to try to explain the distinct differences in the manifestation of those powers. As Jean tapped into her stronger powers at the end of X2, there was a clear fire effect. She was surrounded in flame, and her eyes became red with fire. At the end of the film, the shape of a firebird can be seen on the water.

That doesn't appear anywhere in The Last Stand. Phoenix's powers are completely different and look nothing like what we saw in X2. She's sucking the life out of people with a black veiny look and demolecularizing them with no signs of any kind of fire manifestation that accompanied the previous use of this power. The fire that appears in the final battle is from the destruction taking place, not the kind of manifestation we saw surround Jean herself in X2.

Also, though this is rather minor in comparison, we're told in X2 that Jean could cancel out a mutant's power - Nightcrawler tells us that he can't teleport to get Jean from outside the plane because "she's not letting me." Yet as the Phoenix, to stay alive, Jean could have easily cancelled out Logan's healing factor and finished him off like everyone else. X2 tells us Jean/Phoenix has this power at her disposal, yet she for some reason doesn't use it.

You could argue that the Jean side of her wouldn't let Phoenix do that, but through that argument, you open the door to why the Jean side would have let any of it happen if she were strong enough to hold the Phoenix back from its power. Why would she let it kill Scott, the man she love and chose to be with in X2? Why would she let it attack Logan at all? By this explanation, endless more questions are raised.

And this is why it does not work, IMO. Not because of flaws it has standing alone, but the flaws revealed as part of the series. Because the writers (or whoever was responsible for this decision) did not tie the ideas together with what had been previously done. It's as if they were going off of a cliff notes page of what had happened in X1 and X2 rather than sitting down, watching the movies, and crafting their story to fit what had been established. And ultimately, in my opinion, this is why it disappoints.

Still think I haven't let it really sink in? ;)

I disagree. I think it made perfect sense.

Magneto's machine didn't have any affect on mutants... so it wouldn't make sense for Jean to evolve because of it, and nobody else.

Unless there was something unique about Jean in the first place, to allow the machine to affect her, when it affected nobody else.

Mental blocks.

Why would Xavier limit the potential of another mutant's powers? If they were going to cause more chaos and destruction, because the mutant couldn't control him, I could very much see him doing that. Bam.

Jean's potential was too great, and when she realized that power, she became overcome by the desire to fully utilize that power... hence the Phoenix alter ego.

Why in X2 did she not manifest as the Phoenix when using those awesome displays of power? Because she was just realizing the true power she had. You can see in some scenes throughout the movie that she had not fully manifested them, or else the Blackbird never would have had to be saved by Magneto, because she would have stopped that second missle.

She never fully realized her powers, and hence, the Phoenix alter ego never took hold.

But the final scene, where she sacrifices herself, is her manifesting those powers to the fullest of their extent. And no, she wasn't manipulating other mutants' powers. What she was doing to Nightcrawler was telekinetically holding him in place, so he couldn't get her. She only negated his power because of the nature of his power... movement.

With everything that she did; turn on the jet, lock the ramp, lift the jet, lock the controls, hold Nightcrawler back from teleporting to get her, talking to the team through Xavier, and holding back the rush of water... she fully realized her powers. And after the waves overcame her, the powers manifested even more by forming a cocoon around her. Her powers had not been fully realized. The subconcious part of her powers had come totally in control. And that's why after she rose... she was Dark Phoenix.

In X-Men: The Last Stand, she succumbs to those powers, and let's it control her. It's why she kills off Cyclops and Xavier.

The explanation makes total sense, and keeps the continuity of the previous films very well.
 
I think one thing is very *interesting*...When I left the theater tonight, everyone was talking about #1 Rogue taking the cure and #2 the Professor putting mental blocks on Jean. And people are talking about the same topics here, too. For a brainless, hearltess action movie, people are discussing some interesting ethical/philosophical issues.
 
MJB said:
It was never said that her powers were expanding as a direct result of the machine. All Scott said in x2 was that after Liberty island she was different. In fact it could have been do to her using Cerebro. No specific expalination was ever given.

For the people that actually paid intention and people that understand subtlety, in X-men 1, after the mutant wave took effect and was shut down, there was a very clear reaction shot to Jean. She had a very strange look to her, something "affected" her. That's the first hint.

Hint #2, in X-men 2 Scott says, "after Liberty Island".

Hey it might've been Cerebro.

The fact of the matter is that the filmmakers don't acknowledge any of this. They don't even say, hey "maybe the Mutant Machine plus the use of Cerebro" started cracking down Jean's psychic blocks.
 
What happened in the third movie contradicts the first 2.

How so?

It was acknowledged in the first movie and second movie that here powers were growing. In the second movie it was said she was always cautious and at times afraid of her powers.

The psychic block idea is stupid because if they were there, Jean wouldn't be able to tap into this power or use it at all.

The psychic block makes perfect sense.

God forbid they actually ACKNOWLEDGE the first movie and come to the conclusion that Magneto's machine had an effect on Jean and caused her powers to expand like this and the Phoenix "entity" or personality was created as a product of this.

But this is the point...it's not a matter of Jean's powers evolving. It's a matter of her powers evolving...AND...the Phoenix personality not wanting to or being able to control those powers, or herself. It's the classic ID, EGO and SUPEREGO on an entirely different level.

It was never said that her powers were expanding as a direct result of the machine. All Scott said in x2 was that after Liberty island she was different. In fact it could have been do to her using Cerebro. No specific expalination was ever given.

It's pretty obvious it was the machine's radiation from her reaction in X-MEN.

Honestly, I don't see how the explanation contracticted X1 or X2, I think it enhances them.

Absolutely. Nothing seen in X3 contradicts anything in X-MEN or X2. it just ADDS to the explanation of Phoenix.

Jean's psychic blocks were not all-or-nothing, but more like a dam with cracks, a good allusion to the visuals, plot and themes of X2. Also the explanation is nice touch considering her Phoenix necklace, etc. in X2. People who have seen X1 can conclude that Magneto's machine put more cracks in Jean's psychic blocks, causing the Phoenix persona to slip out, as evidenced by her nightmares in X2, and her powers growing in X2.

EXACTLY.

It was acknowledged in the first movie and second movie that here powers were growing. In the second movie it was said she was always cautious and at times afraid of her powers.

The psychic block idea is stupid because if they were there, Jean wouldn't be able to tap into this power or use it at all.

God forbid they actually ACKNOWLEDGE the first movie and come to the conclusion that Magneto's machine had an effect on Jean and caused her powers to expand like this and the Phoenix "entity" or personality was created as a product of this.

"Phoenix" occurs as a combination of BOTH aspects. Evolution or accumulation of power, and a breakdown in control. The evolving of her powers, and the breakdown of the barriers to control the dangerous half of her personality.

Without her "dual personality" explanation, there's something to explain how she's so powerful, but nothing to explain whey Jean Grey simply GOES EVIL.
It makes perfect sense.

But no, the filmmakers and studio don't care about continuity at all.
While I think it is consistent with the previous movies, it still feels pulled out of nowhere... because anything like it wasn't ever hinted at in the previous movies.

Yes, it comes out of nowhere, but it works in the context of previous movies. And let's face it, previous movies didn't exactly seek to EXPLAIN her power evolution or loss of control of them that much.

Why would Xavier limit the potential of another mutant's powers? If they were going to cause more chaos and destruction, because the mutant couldn't control him, I could very much see him doing that. Bam.

Definitely. Xavier would know the temptations of such power. And know that Jean Grey wasn't ready or able to control it.
 
If the Phoenix personality was always there, and the power was always there (and Phoenix is clearly stronger than Xavier), why did the Phoenix personality simply not take hold long ago, as she is easily able to overcome Xavier's power with relative ease as she did in X3.
 
BMM said:
If the Phoenix personality was always there, and the power was always there (and Phoenix is clearly stronger than Xavier), why did the Phoenix personality simply not take hold long ago, as she is easily able to overcome Xavier's power with relative ease as she did in X3.

Because perhaps when she was younger, she couldn't fully use the powers to their maximum potential?

But in X-Men: The Last Stand, because of how the psi-blocks were broken, and her powers just came rushing to the forefront, after being surpressed for so long, they overtook her, which is why she couldn't control it, and she killed off Scott, and became too powerful for even Xavier, because the powers had become too strong for her.

But as a child, they hadn't yet realized their full potential, and Xavier was able to "nip it in the bud" so to speak.
 
Nell2ThaIzzay said:
Because perhaps when she was younger, she couldn't fully use the powers to their maximum potential?

But in X-Men: The Last Stand, because of how the psi-blocks were broken, and her powers just came rushing to the forefront, after being surpressed for so long, they overtook her, which is why she couldn't control it, and she killed off Scott, and became too powerful for even Xavier, because the powers had become too strong for her.

But as a child, they hadn't yet realized their full potential, and Xavier was able to "nip it in the bud" so to speak.

I would buy this if it weren't for Xavier's explanation of their being two personalities within Jean Grey . . . one is Jean the other is the Phoenix. It's not that Jean was simply overcome with power driving her insane. It's presented that she's always had a dark side that Xavier had suppressed, and as for becoming too powerful, it seems that Jean's power has always been there, growing and waiting to be released (hence everyone's explanation of a dam breaking and the power finally bursting through) . . . it was just unbeknownst to Jean Grey. So if the Phoenix personality has always been there (who revels in passion and power), and the power has always been there, why doesn't the Phoenix side burst through earlier (like when Xavier's talking to the Phoenix in one of their apparent previous sessions)?
 

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