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Phoenix: Did you like her explanation?

mizeidman said:
basically, these are all the issues up for debate. I dont think any of us have concrete, supportable answers for them.

Haha. Well, this is what I'm wondering . . . and that's what I was trying to say. It seems so many people have different responses to these questions, which is why I was saying that I think the explanation could have been further explored (or been better) because it seems either hellaciously confusing or up in the air for a lot of people . . . or there are just a bunch of interpretations.
 
Did Xavier put mental blocks in Jean restricting her power? --Yes.

Did Xavier put mental blocks in Jean restricting her Phoenix personality? --Yes.

Both? --Yes.

Did the Jean consiousness have access to these powers? --Limited telekinesis and telepathy, but the incident at Liberty Island and Cerebro probably weakened the blocks, granting more access to her powers and Phoenix (i.e. nightmares, feelings of unease).

Did the Phoenix consiousness have access to these powers? --Yes, but both were blocked from full manifestation.

Both? One? None? --Huh?

Was the split personality present before Xavier put the blocks in? --Maybe, young Jean was a little bratty.

Was the split personality a result of Xavier putting the blocks in? --Made it worse for sure.

Were the actions of Jean in X2 a result of the barriers breaking and allowing the power to get out? --Yes, but Jean was stronger than Phoenix at this point, as she was in the end of X3.

Were the actions of Jean in X2 a result of the barriers breaking and allowing the Phoenix perosnality to get out. --Jean was in control at this time, she was saving her loved ones.

Both? --Most likely, but Jean was clearly the dominant personality at this time.

Did the barriers keep both Jean and the Phoenix consiousness from having access to her powers, or did one or the other have access to them? None? --Both.

Was the Phoenix consiousness aware of Scott, calling to him, etc.? --Aware yes. Calling...maybe? Was it Jean or Phoenix...or both? There were different aspects to the voices Scott heard. Some soft and loving, some angry/fearful.
 
Okay, thanks. That's essentially what I was thinking, but after reading some posts with different explanations as to what they think happened, I was beginning to wonder if I just missed something entirely.
 
BMM said:
Haha. Well, this is what I'm wondering . . . and that's what I was trying to say. It seems so many people have different responses to these questions, which is why I was saying that I think the explanation could have been further explored (or been better) because it seems either hellaciously confusing or up in the air for a lot of people . . . or there are just a bunch of interpretations.
The explanation was not meant to be fully explored in the movie or what would people have to talk about when they left the theater? "Well, that about summed it up!" "Yup! Good movie!" The two things I kept hearing people discuss were Rogue taking the cure and the Phoenix. Just because something is open to interpretation does not mean it was not executed well on-screen. The technical details are there, and the nuances are and should be open to debate.
 
im plugging my mystique thread

go read it, it is new and interesting.
 
BMM said:
Okay, thanks. That's essentially what I was thinking, but after reading some posts with different explanations as to what they think happened, I was beginning to wonder if I just missed something entirely.
Yes, Phoenix is sometimes HARD TO EXPLAIN!! :D I think the movie explanation made it very straightforward and I can't wait to rewatch X1 and X2 again knowing about the "explanation"!! :D It will be like going back and watching "Star Wars" after learning that Darth was Luke's father, to see how it affects things, I will probably start seeing Phoenix in every less-than-happy expression Jean makes!!
 
PhoenixRisen said:
The explanation was not meant to be fully explored in the movie or what would people have to talk about when they left the theater? "Well, that about summed it up!" "Yup! Good movie!" The two things I kept hearing people discuss were Rogue taking the cure and the Phoenix. Just because something is open to interpretation does not mean it was not executed well on-screen. The technical details are there, and the nuances are and should be open to debate.

I agree that stuff should be, and will be, debatable--such as the ethical implications of the cure, what does Rogue taking the cure mean . . . did she actually do it . . . the ethical implications of Xavier placing barriers in Jean's mind without her knowing it. To me, with the Phoenix explanation, it just seems like something such as a character's exposition shouldn't necessarily have to be too debatable or questionable in so far as what did or didn't occur . . . but that's just my opinion . . . but I don't think it was too questionable.
 
BMM said:
I agree that stuff should be, and will be, debatable--such as the ethical implications of the cure, what does Rogue taking the cure mean . . . did she actually do it . . . the ethical implications of Xavier placing barriers in Jean's mind without her knowing it. To me, with the Phoenix explanation, it just seems like something such as a character's exposition shouldn't necessarily have to be too debatable or questionable in so far as what did or didn't occur . . . but that's just my opinion . . . but I don't think it was too questionable.
Well, you got me to thinking. The "explanation" could even explain one major problem I had with X3--NO FIREBIRD/FIERY AURA. In X3, the Phoenix had taken over as the dominant personality, and Jean managed to slip through every now and then. In X3, it was always PHOENIX that used the "power." But in X2 at the end, it was JEAN using her power. Maybe when Jean is accessing her powers in an act of love, a fiery aura is produced, fire being a symbol of life. But in X3, it is Phoenix using the power, and maybe in that case the physical manifestation of the power is black eyes and veiny skin, more linked with death.
 
Cyke82 said:
I thought the explanation was rushed and inconsistent with what previous films had established, and therefore was not very satisfied with it. Furthermore, I was rather disappointed by how disjointed and separate the Phoenix plotline was from the movie's other plot, the Cure. This was evident most by how Jean just stood around during the Brotherhood and Cure scenes, as if she were just an extra getting a lot of attention. Even in the final battle, she just hangs around until the Brotherhood is defeated before ever getting involved. It's as if we were watching two different shorts that were put together into one film, IMO.

The explanation would have been more feasible had the effects been even a little more obvious... the out-of-control part of her was in charge when she barely said anything after becoming Phoenix??? eh.
 
martinbluther said:
The explanation would have been more feasible had the effects been even a little more obvious... the out-of-control part of her was in charge when she barely said anything after becoming Phoenix??? eh.
She was basically brain-dead for major portions of the movie. Not Jean, not Phoenix. An empty consciousness as her subsconscious sides struggled.
 
I think the explanation worked. Non fans would never understand the real Phoenix story.
 
I have no problem with how the Phoenix origin meshes with the previous films. It was hinted at, all through out X1, that Jean had some issues with her powers. Particularly concerning the use of Cerebro.

Remember at one point she's explaining why she can't use Cerebro and she says (and I paraphrase) "For someone like me, it could be...." "Dangerous" Cyclops says finishing her sentence. Then the look on her face is fascinating. She looks as if she's ashamed or trying to give a short explanation concerning a topic she doesn't want to discuss.

THEN, Cyclops is frantic when he sees her entering Cerebro. Why? Does he know that Jean is unstable mentally? Does she even know it? Or has the professor just fed them a story about it being physically dangerous just to scare them into walking the line?

To me it's obvious that Prof. X has some concern that Cerebro's amplification abilities will undermine his "work" he's been doing with Jean.

Cerebro may or may not have contributed to the release of Phoenix, but it advanced the idea of Jean being unstable before the Liberty Island incident. Her expression after exposure to Mag's machine is clearly designed to insinuate that something has happened. We don't know what that is....it could have amplified or evolved her powers but with all the talk about Cerebro before, it seems to me that the radiation released powers, not amplified or created them.

So in X2 we see those powers starting to manifest. In the Cyclops attack sequence, Jean looks pretty mean at one point. She also seems to struggle with controlling the power.... whether with the fine control (tweaking the missile fins) or with big outbursts (when she damaged the dam). We could assume that it's her learning how to use her powers ....

....or we can think that possibly the struggle she's having is with restraining the intense emotions she's having while using them. Seductive emotions.

Her "death" basically evaporated any mental blocks she had left and also any self control too. So when she comes back in X3 the Jean we know is now the repressed persona. A reversal of minds.

Then X3. I do hate that they ignored the X2 continuity and forgot the flame effect. BUT if I'm not mistaken, for an instant before she gets vieney, there is a flash of light in her eyes. Maybe I was seeing things.

Anyway, the scene where Prof X explains Jean's issues is WAY too rushed. That could have been a much nicer scene if it had been stretched out abit. I did love that it cast X in a light that is a step away from the perfect goody-goody from the previous films. Anyone who's read the comic knows he isn't perfectly nice all the time.

The explanation of the title "Phoenix" could have been handled better. Either as another descriptive line by Mags ala him calling her a goddess or as her codename that she never felt comfortable using because she never felt strong enough to be on the team....but events of X1 forced her into the field. blah blah.

Jean and the Prof almost remind me of those kids I knew who had very strict parents.... once they got out from under their thumbs, the kids went wild. Phoenix is like a drunk, drugged out, resentful teen. She may love her parents/Prof X but in her rageful stupor she says and does alot of things she'll regret.

In my perfect world I'd like to have seen Cyclops been found unconcious with Jean.

Basically a similar infirmary scene but instead of asking "Where's Scott?" he'd be shocked at Jean being hyper sexually aggressive while Scott lay next to her unconscious. That snaps Jean back in where she asks Logan to kill her (cuz she knows what's happening inside her).

Scott could remain out until the Prof death scene which mentally shocks him awake. The Prof could in the last moments telepathically let Scott in on the details of Jean's true condition.

Scott then leads the team to the last stand. Here after everybody heads for the hills, Scott and Logan stay. Scott telling Jean he loves her is able to approach her without getting killed because Jean is struggling against Dark Phoenix to protect him.

Lot's of personality flip-flops here. Jean begging Scott to leave because she can't protect him much longer. Scott refusing. Saying he'll die first. Jean says "No, I will".

With that she telekenetically launched Wolverine, claws first, into her. She dies expressing her love for Scott.

Logan is devastated at killing her even tho she really committed suicide (like in the comic).

Later at the mansion, a nice scene where Scott tells Logan it's not his fault.



AND,
Angel never leaves San Fran until after the last stand (that'd clear up that cross-country Mach 8 flight of his)

Iceman, while evacuating, would create an ice path across the bay for everyone OR as Mag's powers fail...(the bridge should have fallen ..the supports were destroyed) and Bobby could have iced up some supports.


-Dallas
 
Phoenix was a disappointment.

If I want to see Akira, Ill watch Akira(Only in japanese though. I wouldnt watch the dubbed version if you paid me to)
 
wonderdallas said:
I have no problem with how the Phoenix origin meshes with the previous films. It was hinted at, all through out X1, that Jean had some issues with her powers. Particularly concerning the use of Cerebro.

Remember at one point she's explaining why she can't use Cerebro and she says (and I paraphrase) "For someone like me, it could be...." "Dangerous" Cyclops says finishing her sentence. Then the look on her face is fascinating. She looks as if she's ashamed or trying to give a short explanation concerning a topic she doesn't want to discuss.

THEN, Cyclops is frantic when he sees her entering Cerebro. Why? Does he know that Jean is unstable mentally? Does she even know it? Or has the professor just fed them a story about it being physically dangerous just to scare them into walking the line?

To me it's obvious that Prof. X has some concern that Cerebro's amplification abilities will undermine his "work" he's been doing with Jean.

Cerebro may or may not have contributed to the release of Phoenix, but it advanced the idea of Jean being unstable before the Liberty Island incident. Her expression after exposure to Mag's machine is clearly designed to insinuate that something has happened. We don't know what that is....it could have amplified or evolved her powers but with all the talk about Cerebro before, it seems to me that the radiation released powers, not amplified or created them.

So in X2 we see those powers starting to manifest. In the Cyclops attack sequence, Jean looks pretty mean at one point. She also seems to struggle with controlling the power.... whether with the fine control (tweaking the missile fins) or with big outbursts (when she damaged the dam). We could assume that it's her learning how to use her powers ....

....or we can think that possibly the struggle she's having is with restraining the intense emotions she's having while using them. Seductive emotions.

Her "death" basically evaporated any mental blocks she had left and also any self control too. So when she comes back in X3 the Jean we know is now the repressed persona. A reversal of minds.

Then X3. I do hate that they ignored the X2 continuity and forgot the flame effect. BUT if I'm not mistaken, for an instant before she gets vieney, there is a flash of light in her eyes. Maybe I was seeing things.

Anyway, the scene where Prof X explains Jean's issues is WAY too rushed. That could have been a much nicer scene if it had been stretched out abit. I did love that it cast X in a light that is a step away from the perfect goody-goody from the previous films. Anyone who's read the comic knows he isn't perfectly nice all the time.

The explanation of the title "Phoenix" could have been handled better. Either as another descriptive line by Mags ala him calling her a goddess or as her codename that she never felt comfortable using because she never felt strong enough to be on the team....but events of X1 forced her into the field. blah blah.

Jean and the Prof almost remind me of those kids I knew who had very strict parents.... once they got out from under their thumbs, the kids went wild. Phoenix is like a drunk, drugged out, resentful teen. She may love her parents/Prof X but in her rageful stupor she says and does alot of things she'll regret.

In my perfect world I'd like to have seen Cyclops been found unconcious with Jean.

Basically a similar infirmary scene but instead of asking "Where's Scott?" he'd be shocked at Jean being hyper sexually aggressive while Scott lay next to her unconscious. That snaps Jean back in where she asks Logan to kill her (cuz she knows what's happening inside her).

Scott could remain out until the Prof death scene which mentally shocks him awake. The Prof could in the last moments telepathically let Scott in on the details of Jean's true condition.

Scott then leads the team to the last stand. Here after everybody heads for the hills, Scott and Logan stay. Scott telling Jean he loves her is able to approach her without getting killed because Jean is struggling against Dark Phoenix to protect him.

Lot's of personality flip-flops here. Jean begging Scott to leave because she can't protect him much longer. Scott refusing. Saying he'll die first. Jean says "No, I will".

With that she telekenetically launched Wolverine, claws first, into her. She dies expressing her love for Scott.

Logan is devastated at killing her even tho she really committed suicide (like in the comic).

Later at the mansion, a nice scene where Scott tells Logan it's not his fault.



AND,
Angel never leaves San Fran until after the last stand (that'd clear up that cross-country Mach 8 flight of his)

Iceman, while evacuating, would create an ice path across the bay for everyone OR as Mag's powers fail...(the bridge should have fallen ..the supports were destroyed) and Bobby could have iced up some supports.


-Dallas

right before she says "for somoeone like me it's..." She says "No. It takes a degree of control..."

Earlier she says she's not as powerful as the professor.

So the concluson I made was that she's not able to control cerebro as well as the professor and attempting to could kill her. That's why scott was so frantic. His girl is doing something that could kll her so of course he's a little unhappy. We see that reaction from him again in x2. That time she did die.

Scott and Jean have no idea why her powers are going bonkers in X2. scott says "ever since liberty island you've been different." So I think tis reasonable to assume whatever happened then and only then is when she started to change.

I would have liked to see Jean struggle with the phoenix to prevent it from hurting her friends and lover, Scott more. It's never given much reason why she even calls scott to the lake and just kills him for the hell of it. Show us Phoenix doing it out of spite for Jean at least... not this "can't control your power." explanation. Jean's not even trying... Phoenix just does as she pleases and suddenly she may relapse into Jean mode. Ms. Mutant PKE meter tells us her power is completely unstable, whatever that means... If Jean's got any control at all over phoenix's powers like she did in x2, she should have brought scott back to life or hampered phoenix in some way during her killing spree. Logan just lucked out in the end that phoenix relapsed into Jean mode long enough for him to stab her. that little stab ought not to have been enough to kill her anyway though. And it seems her psychic and telekinetic powers were neglected during that scene. she neither gives logan a schiezure or picks him up and throws him away, just blasts him a bit with some of that disintergraton power..

gimme a break. lol...

oh what could have been...
 
Wesyeed said:
right before she says "for somoeone like me it's..." She says "No. It takes a degree of control..."

Earlier she says she's not as powerful as the professor.

So the concluson I made was that she's not able to control cerebro as well as the professor and attempting to could kill her. That's why scott was so frantic. His girl is doing something that could kll her so of course he's a little unhappy. We see that reaction from him again in x2. That time she did die.

Scott and Jean have no idea why her powers are going bonkers in X2. scott says "ever since liberty island you've been different." So I think tis reasonable to assume whatever happened then and only then is when she started to change.

I would have liked to see Jean struggle with the phoenix to prevent it from hurting her friends and lover, Scott more. It's never given much reason why she even calls scott to the lake and just kills him for the hell of it. Show us Phoenix doing it out of spite for Jean at least... not this "can't control your power." explanation. Jean's not even trying... Phoenix just does as she pleases and suddenly she may relapse into Jean mode. Ms. Mutant PKE meter tells us her power is completely unstable, whatever that means... If Jean's got any control at all over phoenix's powers like she did in x2, she should have brought scott back to life or hampered phoenix in some way during her killing spree. Logan just lucked out in the end that phoenix relapsed into Jean mode long enough for him to stab her. that little stab ought not to have been enough to kill her anyway though. And it seems her psychic and telekinetic powers were neglected during that scene. she neither gives logan a schiezure or picks him up and throws him away, just blasts him a bit with some of that disintergraton power..

gimme a break. lol...

oh what could have been...

No, we won't give you a break. And 'could have been' is irrelevant. Swallow what you got, choke on it if you like.

Jean Grey represented a huge leap in evolution. Xavier worried she couldn't control her powers, so he restrained her power and thus created an alternate personality where the full power lay. Use of Cerebro and Magneto's machine breaks down the blocks, her power expands, evolving to what she would have been if Xavier hadn't blocked it. She pushes herself to the limit, her conscious mind that is in control of her power goes into a coma when the wall of water hits, so the dark subconscious Phoenix is free to try to take control when she is awakened by Scott's blast in X3.

If that really is so hard to understand, you should go back to reading books aimed at the under-fives. The clues were all there, the story was all there. Do you think you look attractive when you are being a fool?
 
No, I'll take a big stinking **** on what we've got instead. I explained what I thought based on the story that was all there and gave my opinion on her seemingly unstable and mostly neglected powers which like I said were watered down without much explanation; If phoenix is in full control why's jean able to break through and why does the prof keep asking her to not let it control her. It seems she doesn't have a choice. And jean fighting the phoenix being the key to why she's not plucking Logan's eyes out or any of that, I thought woudl have helped that scene make more sense to me. If that's foolish, I'm glad I'm a fool. You pick out something I hardly addressed anyway. I didn't even get into the mental blocks argument so what the hell are you going on about like that for?

I challenge that cerebro had nothing to do with her phoenix being unleashed since scott says jean's been different since liberty island, not since a cerebro session. What's wrong with that? It's what's in the ****ing movie. It's what the ****ing character says. What the ****...
 
britrogue said:
I think the explanation worked. Non fans would never understand the real Phoenix story.

sadly that's true. i tried explaining the real version of the story and they got lost right around what the "phoenix force" is. i havent gotten around the Shi'ars yet :(
 
Steelsheen said:
sadly that's true. i tried explaining the real version of the story and they got lost right around what the "phoenix force" is. i havent gotten around the Shi'ars yet :(

When i was telling some of my friends who didn't know i kept the Shi'ars out of it really lol
 
Wesyeed said:
No, I'll take a big stinking **** on what we've got instead. I explained what I thought based on the story that was all there and gave my opinion on her seemingly unstable and mostly neglected powers which like I said were watered down without much explanation; If phoenix is in full control why's jean able to break through and why does the prof keep asking her to not let it control her. It seems she doesn't have a choice. And jean fighting the phoenix being the key to why she's not plucking Logan's eyes out or any of that, I thought woudl have helped that scene make more sense to me. If that's foolish, I'm glad I'm a fool. You pick out something I hardly addressed anyway. I didn't even get into the mental blocks argument so what the hell are you going on about like that for?

I challenge that cerebro had nothing to do with her phoenix being unleashed since scott says jean's been different since liberty island, not since a cerebro session. What's wrong with that? It's what's in the ****ing movie. It's what the ****ing character says. What the ****...


Phoenix ISN'T in full control, but it doesn't have any barriers, so there is an internal battle between 'Jean Grey' and 'Phoenix'. I mean, for God's sake, did you even watch X3? The part where she is in lab, and she is talking and acting as Phoenix, then Jean comes through and asks 'Where am I?'. It was all there as plain as anything.

Think about it. Split personality. Two beings within one person. Sometimes one is in control, sometimes the other. Xavier is asking Jean Grey to take control of herself, and stop the subconscious darker side.

Cerebro has a lot to do with it, or why would they bother showing that scene in X1? Bryan Singer set that scene up deliberately... and in fact he later said one of his thoughts for X3 was that the Phoenix force was awakened again at that moment in Cerebro, and the barriers around it worn down by the radiation from Magneto's machine.

Really, Weyseed, do some thinking!
 
I do plenty of thinking. But you don't see it and I 'think' that you don't want to.
 
arkangel said:
Everyone is making this a lot more complicated than it really needs to be.

X1 From a Jean Grey story point, the focus of the movie was to show how she had to try to focus, and how Prof X had helped her to use her powers.

X2 With a reference to X1, shows that her powers have become slightly more powerful, and she is having a hard time controlling it. At the end of the movie, I saw it as how she had tapped into some of her underlying power, but she was still in control, and at the end, she gave in to her power completely in order to save her friends.

X3 She was awake and in total lack of control of her powers.


I see the descriptions as great, as being a movie it doesn't have the time nor money to appropriately produce it the way the comic book did. Also, everyone wanted more and more mutants, and you cant have it both ways. My take of the whole trilogy is this...

from X1 to the end of X2 due to the events in the movie she had to reach deeper into her power, and each time she did it some of those "barriers" were slowly taken away. When she died it was a traumatic shock to her system, and in that moment she was unconscious after just unleashing her full power to save her friends, her darker side was freed, and in the entire X3 movie we see her exactly as such, in a complete and total state of chaos. Why did she kill Cyclops and Prof X? She could not control the rage, as when she gave into her emotions, good or bad, she lost control and her powers overtook her. Its just like the line u here prof X say a lot. Control your powers, dont let them control you.


:up: :up: :up: I wholeheartedly agree with your explanation of the events. Well said! I wonder if anyone however, has given any thought to the reasons why in X1, when Jean was asked why doesn't she use cerebro and Scott remarked that it would be dangerous for someone like her. I wonder if by using cerebro anyway and if the psychic energy released in her doing so might have caused a weakening of the mental blocks Xavier had placed on her, not just Magneto's machine. Just a thought.
 
Darn it X-Maniac I was still catching up on the thread when i read Arkangel's post and quoted him on it and posted my hypothesis just to see that you posted the exact same thing 13 minutes earlier! Anyway, it is nice to see that someone else saw the same thing. =)
 
crappymovie said:
No I definitely didn't expect a space entity in this film, but the X2 explanation was better....her powers were evolving, and she was becoming corrupted by her new powers. In X3, when Prof X was explaining it to Logan, it seemed kind of comical "She had two personalities....Jean Grey...and another personality which called itself Phoenix." I laughed a little, and someone let out a groan.
:up: Interesting... I've said it before on about three different threads now, but the one thing I have not been able to get over about X3 is that it fails miserably in detailed continuity... it's almost ruining the trilogy aspect.
 
The stupid part of the explanation is Jean is called Phoenix because she is RESURRECTED FROM HER DEATH!!! Accordin to X3 Jean's other personality named itself Phoenix a long time ago. That's lame.
 
Tony Stark said:
The stupid part of the explanation is Jean is called Phoenix because she is RESURRECTED FROM HER DEATH!!! Accordin to X3 Jean's other personality named itself Phoenix a long time ago. That's lame.


She never died in the first place.
 

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