Comics Phoenix - Warsong

[Mother_Askani]

It seems like Warsong is going to try to make sense of the various retcons of the Phoenix story, but that's going to be difficult to do.

Giving the Phoenix Force to Emma or the Stepfords is spitting in the face of all continuity. It also doesn't make any sense in reference to what's been happening/will be happening in Uncanny, which is all revolving around the Greys and Phoenix. (otherwise, the Shi'ar should be trying to kill Emma or the Stepfords and leaving Rachel and the Greys alone).

I've heard that Warsong is going to completely retcon or at least try to fit Rachel into the whole Morrison/Endsong Phoenix mythology, but I'm still angry as heck that everything established about Phoenix in Excalibur is being completely and totally ignored.

Phoenix is Rachel's birthright. That's established continuity. The Phoenix Force and the name Phoenix was stripped from Ray in 1994 because the licensing idiots at Marvel thought Jean Grey needed a cool code-name to sell more action figures and told the comics guys to call Jean Phoenix again. And I will always be bitter about that.

A Phoenix story with Emma and the Stepford is pointless and is making a muck of the Phoenix story.

 

[mad_harleyq]

but you have to keep in mind, that rachel is not jean greys duaghter, not this jean, so it might be her birthright from her real mother, i guess, i dont know much about rachel, but if this jean is suppost to pass it on, who is she suppost to pass it to if she has no children, am i making sense

 

[Mother_Askani]

Rachel in Uncanny 199, "I'm your daughter--first-born and only child--and I claim the power and the name of PHOENIX!...that are mine by right! "

Technically, 616 Jean didn't give birth to Rachel, however Jean eventually came to regard Jean as her daughter, and genetically she's Jean's daughter (whether she's genetically Scott's daughter, that's another issue althougher. Claremont's always wanted to to make Rachel the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix Force, kind of like Anakin Skywalker/virgin birth kind of thing but no editor has ever let him do it.)

If you look at the Morrison Phoenix=Jean, Jean=Phoenix, that makes no real sense to explain the decade that Rachel was the Phoenix.

Prior to Excalibur 50, there was no clear distinction between Rachel and the Phoenix. After that, there was in the works the plan to separate the two and retcon everything, which would lead to Rachel ending up in the future and Jean getting a code-name that Marvel's licensing department wanted.

If you look at Uncanny's End of the Grey arc, the Shi'ar want to wipe out the entire Grey line since they are genetically able to host or able to pass on the ability to host the Phoenix. She Shi'ar missed Cable, who as the son of Jean's clone is also a Grey. If the Stepfords do have the ability host the Phoenix force, then they have to be related to the Greys.

 

[Valechan]

By the Phoenix!!! A poster after my own heart!!! I'm so totally behind you Mother Askani!! Long live Rachel Phoenix!!!

 

[perdev145]

hey...want to know something interesting? after this, 8 people will have been host to the phoenix force...(jean grey/madelyne pryor, 5 cuckoos, emma, rachel) and the 9th has already been revealed...but no one remembers him.

his name is Giraud. check out Guardians of the Galaxy...
so maybe if they take the phoenix away from everyone and finally let it REST for a while, some things will be fixed.

i say, bring back all the dead people...let them be alive, minus phoenix force, and lets be on our merry way. let the cuckoos come back this time, and in a third -song series, bring back jean and seperate the jean and phoenix personas. that sets things up nicely for #9 to take over, and all things will be peachy. :-D

ps...i love jean being the phoenix...and love the way her struggle with the phoenix force is depicted in the x-men animated series and in phoenix endsong...i think those two relaly make her story a little more tragic and give it some depth...as an ode to jean, he's one of my favorite pics.

 

[Valechan]

Please, pervert, you're forgetting Prime of the Malibu Universe, and I believe her name was Firefix... or something like that, and there was also a girl named Amber Hunt... all during the Phoenix Resurrection crossever between Marvel and Malibu.

And let us not forget Necrom, and Feron, though Feron was merely its friend. There was also Diamanda Nero, from the X-Men: Phoenix limited series (though it was very brief). And I bet there's a couple or two I'm forgetting about right now.

 

[perdev145]

Please, pervert, you're forgetting Prime of the Malibu Universe, and I believe her name was Firefix... or something like that, and there was also a girl named Amber Hunt... all during the Phoenix Resurrection crossever between Marvel and Malibu.

And let us not forget Necrom, and Feron, though Feron was merely its friend. There was also Diamanda Nero, from the X-Men: Phoenix limited series (though it was very brief). And I bet there's a couple or two I'm forgetting about right now.

eh....i tried to make it work...lol...and its perdev...short for something else

 

[mad_harleyq]

Rachel in Uncanny 199, "I'm your daughter--first-born and only child--and I claim the power and the name of PHOENIX!...that are mine by right! "

Technically, 616 Jean didn't give birth to Rachel, however Jean eventually came to regard Jean as her daughter, and genetically she's Jean's daughter (whether she's genetically Scott's daughter, that's another issue althougher. Claremont's always wanted to to make Rachel the daughter of Jean and the Phoenix Force, kind of like Anakin Skywalker/virgin birth kind of thing but no editor has ever let him do it.)

If you look at the Morrison Phoenix=Jean, Jean=Phoenix, that makes no real sense to explain the decade that Rachel was the Phoenix.

Prior to Excalibur 50, there was no clear distinction between Rachel and the Phoenix. After that, there was in the works the plan to separate the two and retcon everything, which would lead to Rachel ending up in the future and Jean getting a code-name that Marvel's licensing department wanted.

If you look at Uncanny's End of the Grey arc, the Shi'ar want to wipe out the entire Grey line since they are genetically able to host or able to pass on the ability to host the Phoenix. She Shi'ar missed Cable, who as the son of Jean's clone is also a Grey. If the Stepfords do have the ability host the Phoenix force, then they have to be related to the Greys.

shouldnt there be two phoenixes then? one from rachels time and the 616 one? thats what im saying is that, she should have the phoenix from her own mother

 

[Mother_Askani]

shouldnt there be two phoenixes then? one from rachels time and the 616 one? thats what im saying is that, she should have the phoenix from her own mother

No. Phoenix doesn't exist in Marvel 811, only 616. Jean in 811 (Days of Future Past) never became the Phoenix.

The Phoenix Force found Rachel when she transported Kate Pryde back in time, and followed Kate to 811.

Rachel was hosting the Phoenix Force since she traveled back to Marvel 616, just wasn't aware of it until Uncanny 199.

 

[perdev145]

No. Phoenix doesn't exist in Marvel 811, only 616. Jean in 811 (Days of Future Past) never became the Phoenix.

The Phoenix Force found Rachel when she transported Kate Pryde back in time, and followed Kate to 811.

Rachel was hosting the Phoenix Force since she traveled back to Marvel 616, just wasn't aware of it until Uncanny 199.

so if 811 jean never had the phoenix, then its not really rachel's birhtrite, she's just another host to the phoenix in a reality where there was no jean grey left....?

 

[Valechan]

sorry perdev, it's so much alike I get confused

Regarding Rachel... thing is, she might have been born on Earth 811, but she spent a great deal of her life in Earth 616, and in Earth 4935 as Mother Askani, not to mention the time she was adrift the time-stream. She doesn't truly belong to Earth 811 anymore, she is a child of time

 

[Mother_Askani]

It's Ray's birthright because she is the only daughter of Jean, and she was chosen by the Phoenix.

You never know how exactly that will be retconed. Claremont has said he was prohibited by editorial policy to even mention that Rachel had even hosted the Phoenix, which would make the End of the Greys make so much more sense.

 

[Valechan]

It's Ray's birthright because she is the only daughter of Jean, and she was chosen by the Phoenix.

You never know how exactly that will be retconed. Claremont has said he was prohibited by editorial policy to even mention that Rachel had even hosted the Phoenix, which would make the End of the Greys make so much more sense.

Could there be a Vendetta against Rachel in Marvel??

 

[perdev145]

Could there be a Vendetta against Rachel in Marvel??

one can only hope...i can't stand her!

 

[Specter313]

If you look at Uncanny's End of the Grey arc, the Shi'ar want to wipe out the entire Grey line since they are genetically able to host or able to pass on the ability to host the Phoenix. She Shi'ar missed Cable, who as the son of Jean's clone is also a Grey. If the Stepfords do have the ability host the Phoenix force, then they have to be related to the Greys.

Uh uh. Quentin Quire has been shown as a possible host, and he's not a relative of the Greys. Xavier even hosted a bit of it at one point, and he's definitely not related to the the Greys.

You don't have to be related to them in order to host the Phoenix. You just have to have high level psionic powers.

 

[Generation Lee]

OK but let's face it Claremont done this epic story the Phoneix Saga. At the end Jean gives up her life to save the universe. Then low and behold her daughter turns up. Kinda like here is a Jean for fans who want her back. Oh Look she has the force etc.

Now I'm not sure if Ray came before the whole clone Jean was the Dark Phoneix crap but still. This character seems a cop out to Jean's original death. When she's not around its OK we have Rachel.

I have stated that the Cuckoo's may be pieces of Jean or even the DP hidden from the world. If so they can wield the force. Emma took a large amount of the force in Endsong and it was burning her up showing that she is unable to host it without dying.

In terms of Rachel I agree that it doesn't sit well that the force is her birth right. For me its Cable who owns that honour. Due to the retcon of Maddie becomming a clone of Jean.

 

[Mother_Askani]

Could there be a Vendetta against Rachel in Marvel??

Of course there is. There are two issues with Ray: editors think new readers are too stupid to understand Ray's back story and many editors are against any time traveling character

It goes all the way back to the Phoenix Limited Series in 1986. Claremont wrote it, Rick Leonardi did about 10 pages of art, and it was aburptly canceled for no apparent reason, other than Ray as Phoenix stole the thunder from Jean Grey's return in X-Factor. (You can find some of the pages online)

Claremont had always been very limited on what he could do withRachel when she was with Excalibur, and had to fight and fight to get Days of Future Present done, but that did deal with some of the stuff that would have been in the Phoenix Limited.

Then in 1993, Marvel licensing morons thought it was stupid that Jean didn't have a code-name, thought Marvel Girl was silly, and thought Phoenix was great. So, Rachel got the ax and Jean got the Phoenix name back, without the powers.

Ever since 1994, writers were usually unable to use Rachel. Scott Lobdell had intended on Jean having a baby girl and dealing with whether it was or wasn't Rachel, but wasn't allowed to do that storyline

In the early 2000s, Bob Weinberg and David Tischman both had big plans for Ray in Cable once she was back in Marvel 616, but never were able to do any of them.

Claremont fought to bring Ray into X-treme and eventually when he couldn't make Bogan's telepath Betsy or Jean, Joe Quesada lifted the ban on Rachel since they needed another telepath.

Speculation is that the ban was only lifted if Rachel was completely and drastically changed and her past was never really mentioned. She became Jean Jr and was essentially a completely different character, since neither Quesada or Marts like her and hate all of the overly complicated time traveling characters, and because Rachel's existance contradicts all of the Morrison's Phoenix B.S.

 

[Valechan]

It is very sad to know so... didn't the 1986 series finally get published in 1999ish as X-Men: True Friends? Or is that another past story that Claremont couldn't do in the past and then got approbal years later?

 

[MindPsyker]

Ugh, im a ******. I just checked out Rachel's bio and I was wrong about her being a descendant to the Phoenix. Hopefully they clear all this garbage up in Warsong and explain everything rationally. And I now officially dislike Rachel Grey. I pretty much dislike all things involved with time-travel now.

 

[perdev145]

i agree with whoever said cable should get the birthrite...
if anyone were to get it (which i don't think they should) it should be him.

like i said before, i think the only reason rachel ever got the phoenix at all was because her timelines jean grey was dead, and she's the next best thing if cables not around.

i think it was on wikipedia (i know, not the most reliable source) that i read that each galaxy has its own phoenix guardian, and that jean grey, being ours, has the ability to fix the entire timeline of the galaxy, as she did in "here comes tomorrow". with that said, there is no need for rachel to be the phoenix UNLESS jean never got it in the first place. it's like having tenure at a teaching job, once you get it, it can't be taken away...until you die...but when dealing with a phoenix it doesnt matter if they die, cuz they come right back :-D

 

[Specter313]

i agree with whoever said cable should get the birthrite...
if anyone were to get it (which i don't think they should) it should be him.

like i said before, i think the only reason rachel ever got the phoenix at all was because her timelines jean grey was dead, and she's the next best thing if cables not around.

i think it was on wikipedia (i know, not the most reliable source) that i read that each galaxy has its own phoenix guardian, and that jean grey, being ours, has the ability to fix the entire timeline of the galaxy, as she did in "here comes tomorrow". with that said, there is no need for rachel to be the phoenix UNLESS jean never got it in the first place. it's like having tenure at a teaching job, once you get it, it can't be taken away...until you die...but when dealing with a phoenix it doesnt matter if they die, cuz they come right back :-D

Rachel didn't get the Phoenix Force until she came to the 616 timeline, and at that point, Cable was only a baby if he had even been born at all at that point.

 

[Bastila]

Anyone got Warsong it came out today, I'll proble get it Friday if they have in in store.

 

[Specter313]

It doesn't come out until tomorrow because of Labor Day.

 

[Bastila]

Oh, well I thought it did, is it a monthly thing?

 

[LEX]

Reading Warsong without Greg Land felt conspicuously odd.

X-Men Phoenix Warsong #1
Frankly, it was a disappointing read from one which had seemed so promising. Perhaps it was a delusive move to expect greatly from Warsong, but it was only natural. It was unfortunate that they did not bring back the people who did the art for Endsong, namely Greg Land. I would gauge my eyes out rather than look at that wretched cover art again. Clearly, it is NOTHING compared to any of the Endsong covers, but, surely, most of you already know that. Hopefully, the mini will pick up as it goes because I am nearing the certainty to dropping this title, but at this stage, it is not entirely inconceivable.

[/rant]

Spoilerific giveaway, vide infra.

Spoiler

Cuckoos start to hear voices in their heads. They are up and about, out of their beds, wandering around, and following the telepathic voices. Hellion, being his usual self, intentionally flirts with the Cuckoos as they pass by. The voice explains how "the stupid little warblers" never asked the obvious question; WHAT IS A CUCKOO? The three girls, Celeste, Mindee and Phoebe, appear to be standing in the graveyard while Logan, Kitty and Piotr are having drinks outside of the mansion, Beast doing his usual routine in his laboratory, and Scott and Emma sleeping in their bedroom. Celeste points out that they are at their sisters's graves, Esma and Sophie. The voices return and the Cuckoos start to levitate away from JEAN GREY-SUMMERS's tombstone. Emma wakes up to a ringing phone. Scott takes it and as Emma hovers above her bed after Scott hangs up the phone, she burns Scott to his flesh. The X-Men come to his aid, but go down in the crossfire. The Phoenix has consumed Emma and she flies out of the mansion, demolishing everything in sight. The next panel shows the whole world being engulfed in flames. Emma wakes up again and realizes that it was merely a dream. Scott tells her that there is something wrong. Emma is in her diamond form as they step out of the bedroom and into the hallway. The Cuckoos are flying around outside and, apparently, not following orders from the Sentinel Squad O*N*E. Emma brings them down with her telepathy. She locks them somewhere in three separate confined spaces. Emma forces the Cuckoos to tell her what they have been hiding. They refuse and, again, Emma telepathically rapes their minds. The Cuckoos wake up in their bed and are determined to find out what else they are capable of. The X-Men have a meeting and Emma tells them of her dream. The Cuckoos have their sessions with three separate X-Men; Celeste with Beast, Phoebe with Wolverine and Mindee with Emma. The girls can't stand it anymore. They reunite and form a fiery Phoenix, burning Wolverine to crisp. Emma is severely injured, Kid Omega gives a wary look from inside his cyrotube, and zombified Esma and Sophie rise from their graves.

Admittedly, I did enjoy the last few panels. The first half seemed to drag on, but to my surprise, it improved slenderly in the second half. However, I am in a perpetual state of wonder. Why the BLAZES did they not bring back Greg Land? Do satisfy my unmindful curiosity.

Overall, it's too early to tell whether if it is as good as Endsong. But I can say, it started off fairly weak.

6/10