Comics Phoenix - Warsong

[Snikt 6]

It it was said that Warsong is the 2nd title in the Phoenix trilogy (following Endsong)... so I guess that means that yes, their will be a thrid chapter, probably around Oct 2007.... and lets hope that this time Jean comes back!!

Yes! If they bring Jean back this sorry Warsong LS was worth it!!!!!!

 

[weatherwitch]

Yes! If they bring Jean back this sorry Warsong LS was worth it!!!!!!

If I had to guess, I'd say they bring Jean back to finally seperate her and the Phoenix. Pak said a long time ago he wanted the Phoenix to be seen as its own entity with it's own personality. But, that's just my guess.

 

[Snikt 6]

And a very good one. That would solve alot of issues and give us back Jean Grey. I hope that is how it turns out.

 

[weatherwitch]

And a very good one. That would solve alot of issues and give us back Jean Grey. I hope that is how it turns out.

It could be one hell of a story. Especially for Jean's character development. How does one go from being an all powerful cosmic entity--back to being just Jean Grey... Lots of emotional depth, not to mention the Scott/Emma angle. I'm a big Scoot/Jean forever fan, just because they've been through so much. It'd be a good to see them distanced and having to work back to one another, rather than being thrust together. But it would also give Scott and Emma character development as well. It's almost harder with Jean being Jean and not Phoenix--as Phoenix she's larger than life and will always return, as Jean she's real--a person, not an entity and that makes her far more appealing in my book.

 

[Snikt 6]

^Ah, very good post. I also am a very big Jean/Scott fan, the fact that he did what he did with Emma still gets me upset. But....we gotta move on. I think Jean coming back would do wonders for Scott and Emma. It would depend on how the writers write it, but Jean Grey could come back in a big way, and while she might not be all powerful, she would still be a force to be reconed with.

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Not gonna touch the Scott/Jean/Emma angle since I've made my opinion on the issue pretty clear in other posts...

Still, it would be nice to have Jean Grey be just Jean Grey and get rid of the Phoenix force (within her at least).

Personally stopped caring much for the character when they decided turning her into a goddess of all things was a good idea... *shrugs*

 

[no1phoenixfan]

Not gonna touch the Scott/Jean/Emma angle since I've made my opinion on the issue pretty clear in other posts...

Still, it would be nice to have Jean Grey be just Jean Grey and get rid of the Phoenix force (within her at least).

Personally stopped caring much for the character when they decided turning her into a goddess of all things was a good idea... *shrugs*

I agree that they diluted Jean's character in New X-Men and Endsong.

Phoenix is not a god,it is just Jean using a codename as a female heroine. Jean is Phoenix, and the Phoenix force is just Jean's very gentetic makeup which is her telepathy and her telekinesis.Which Jean can use herTP/TK powers which she can use these power which can turn into psychokinesis and it can create pyrokinesis. This would explain how she can create a fiery raptor.

You can't get rid of the force because it's Jean's genetic makeup as a mutant TP/TK.. but you can get rid of the phoenix codename, and just have herself being called Jean Grey and using her powers with tp/ tk attacks, without creating or manifesting the raptor or calling herself the phoenix.

Btw? Jean is one tough cookie without calling herself Phoenix. I have many of comics through the years which just have Jean Grey multitasking, and doing a lot more with her powers in various different ways without her manifesting a raptor or calling herself the Phoenix.

Movie Jean Grey's story sucked, and i'm not talking about the actress.. i'm taliking about FOX, and the way they handled her character's story that sucked.., but comic Jean rules imo.
I'm not talking about her using the codename Phoenix like in recent issues like New X-men, and Endsong.. I'm talking about just Jean Grey return in the comics after the original Phoenix/ Dark Phoenix storylines.. Jean Grey rocked through most of the years when she returned just as Jean Grey.

 

[Snikt 6]

Jean Grey is an awesome character on her own. Yeah, I think the Phoenix Force pushed her to the next level, but I would be more than happy to read just a Jean Grey story without the Phoenix involved. X-Men First Class is a good example of this, she is just Jean and she is awesome. Well see how they handle this, but I am hoping Jean comes back at the sacrafice of loosing the Phoenix Force...but they are deeply conected, so I wonder if this will happen, and even if it does.....will it last?

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

@no1phoenixfan:

Fine, not goddess. But they did make her so strong that she's basically just that.

Still, I'll be the first to admit I just have this thing against most non-villains UBER L33T Omega mutants. Not just her.

Hardly sporting, really.

But then again, I'm a Cyke fan somewhat disgruntled at the fact that most "big league" villains are semi-immune to his optic blasts.

Oh well.

 

[no1phoenixfan]

@no1phoenixfan:

Fine, not goddess. But they did make her so strong that she's basically just that.

Still, I'll be the first to admit I just have this thing against most non-villains UBER L33T Omega mutants. Not just her.

Hardly sporting, really.

But then again, I'm a Cyke fan somewhat disgruntled at the fact that most "big league" villains are semi-immune to his optic blasts.

Oh well.

Who would those big villains be?

Darth cyclops i explained to you New x-men and Endsong is the stories that diluted her character making her out worldy. I'm talking about just jean grey being just jean grey, and villains has been semi immune to Jean before if she's caught off guard, which she has been in the past but she has also fended for herself just like Scott in the past, and has beaten some villains as well. What is wrong with that?

Scott fought apocolypse before and has done some damage to Apocolypse. He's a pretty big villian. Scott has beaten sinister before.. another known villian he has fought. Jean and Scott had a lot of the same villians in the past and both Scott and Jean have won some and have lost some fights.
So why so disgruntled?

 

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Who would those big villains be?

Darth cyclops i explained to you New x-men and Endsong is the stories that diluted her character making her out worldy. I'm talking about just jean grey being just jean grey, and villains has been semi immune to Jean before if she's caught off guard, which she has been in the past but she has also fended for herself just like Scott in the past, and has beaten some villains as well. What is wrong with that?

Scott fought apocolypse before and has done some damage to him. he's a pretty big villian. Scott has beaten sinister before.. another known villian he has fought as example. Jean and Scott had a lot of the same villians in the past and both Scott and Jean have won some and have lost some fights.
So why so disgruntled?

Woah, woah, woah. I did say SOMEWHAT disgruntled. And then there was the smilie thingy.

I'm not shaking my fists and screaming at the sky in outrage.

I know Cyke had his moments.

I'll also admit I should've worded the comment otherwise.

What I should've said is that It's just too funny how a guy who can basically level a battlefield by looking at it thanks to a mutation powered by the biggest celestial body in our solar system just has to get his a$$$ kicked so often and so badly at that.

I don't want him to become this invincible uber character. It's just that often over the years, his defeats/failures felt forced. That's it.



And as for Phoenix...

Look, I'm hardly an expert on the subject.

As I said before, Jean became too powerful for a good guy/gal the second she became Phoenix IMO. I just saw the 'uber l33t' angle coming from about 50 miles away and lost interest, that's all.

I still like Jean, I just don't get kicks out of reading stuff about her anymore.

I will agree 110%, though, that New X-Men made it even worse. Not even gonna bother fighting that one. Am with ya all the way on this one.

As for Endsong (which I liked), huh, exactly WHAT does she do short of kickstarting her own resurrection every 10 seconds while Wolvie guts her, absorbing Cyke's blasts and protecting everyone from that big blast at the end? I don't see how it's that big of a leap from what was established before.

Oh well.

 

[weatherwitch]

I agree that they diluted Jean's character in New X-Men and Endsong.

Phoenix is not a god,it is just Jean using a codename as a female heroine. Jean is Phoenix, and the Phoenix force is just Jean's very gentetic makeup which is her telepathy and her telekinesis.Which Jean can use herTP/TK powers which she can use these power which can turn into psychokinesis and it can create pyrokinesis. This would explain how she can create a fiery raptor.

You can't get rid of the force because it's Jean's genetic makeup as a mutant TP/TK.. but you can get rid of the phoenix codename, and just have herself being called Jean Grey and using her powers with tp/ tk attacks, without creating or manifesting the raptor or calling herself the phoenix.

Btw? Jean is one tough cookie without calling herself Phoenix. I have many of comics through the years which just have Jean Grey multitasking, and doing a lot more with her powers in various different ways without her manifesting a raptor or calling herself the Phoenix.

Movie Jean Grey's story sucked, and i'm not talking about the actress.. i'm taliking about FOX, and the way they handled her character's story that sucked.., but comic Jean rules imo.
I'm not talking about her using the codename Phoenix like in recent issues like New X-men, and Endsong.. I'm talking about just Jean Grey return in the comics after the original Phoenix/ Dark Phoenix storylines.. Jean Grey rocked through most of the years when she returned just as Jean Grey.

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but Phoenix is a cosmic force (not a god), not simply Jean's TK. This is established by the fact that at least two other people have hosted the Phoenix before Jean as well as everything going on in Warsong now and with Rachael in Uncanny. Jean on her own is mighty powerful indeed, but the "Phoenix" did not come from her, it came to her.

As for movie Phoenix, I liked the concept of reworking the story so that it was Jean's Teke out of control, but the execution was poorly done. Jean, without the melodrama of the Phoenix and constant dying is an awesome heroine. With it, she get s tiresome real quick. I want Jean back, but not if it's a regurgitation of the Phoenix story again and again and...well, you get the idea.

 

[no1phoenixfan]

Maybe I'm misreading your post, but Phoenix is a cosmic force (not a god), not simply Jean's TK. This is established by the fact that at least two other people have hosted the Phoenix before Jean as well as everything going on in Warsong now and with Rachael in Uncanny. Jean on her own is mighty powerful indeed, but the "Phoenix" did not come from her, it came to her.

As for movie Phoenix, I liked the concept of reworking the story so that it was Jean's Teke out of control, but the execution was poorly done. Jean, without the melodrama of the Phoenix and constant dying is an awesome heroine. With it, she get s tiresome real quick. I want Jean back, but not if it's a regurgitation of the Phoenix story again and again and...well, you get the idea.

I never called Jean/phoenix a god. I said the force was a part of Jean's very own genetic makeup.


Also i disagree. Rachel can tap into the force from jean because all the force is Jean's Tp/tk that's what the force is, classic X-men issue #42 pointed out that it would go to Jean's children because it would be their genetic makeup to have it, and to be able to tap into the force. The force is Jean's TP/TK . Rachel Tp/Tk.


Also jean as the goldwoman or fiery woman visited Rachel in Rachel's timeline there was an issue in excalibur because someone showed it on another messageboard a couple of years back.I don't remember the issue number though but that's when Rachel tapped into the force.
If you want to know about the fiery woman, or gold woman which Jean just split's whatever which part of her powers off Tp/Tk i suggest classic X-men issue #8.The Inferno is another good read.

Also classic X-men #43 yup the white unform when Jean resurrects in the sphere herself, and fate, and jean explains what the force is. Another great issue with Jean appearing it is explained what the force is as well is wolverine issue #125.

Jean grey when she wasn't using her codename as Phoenix has flown in space by putting a tk sheathe around her body,and that was her as Jean grey without being Phoenix.

 

[Specter313]

That's where i disagree. Rachel can tap into the force from jean because all the force is Jean's Tp/tk that's what the force is, classic X-men issue #42 pointed out that it would go to Jean's children because it would be their genetic makeup to have it, and to be able to tap into the force. The force is Jean's TP/TK . Rachel Tp/Tk.

Also jean as the goldwoman or fiery woman visited Rachel in Rachel time in excalibur don't remember the issue number but that's when Rachel tapped into the force. if you want to know about the fiery woman, or gold woman which Jean just split's whatever part of her powers off i suggest classic X-men issue #8.The Inferno is another good read.

Jean grey when she wasn't using her codename as Phoenix has flown in space by putting a tk sheathe around her body before and that was her as Jean grey without being Phoenix. Grin

I don't know where you're getting this from, but the Phoenix Force is a separate entity. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a stated fact. It was around long before Jean ever existed. That's why numerous other people besides Jean and members of her family have been able to host it.

 

[no1phoenixfan]

I don't know where you're getting this from, but the Phoenix Force is a separate entity. This isn't a matter of opinion, it's a stated fact. It was around long before Jean ever existed. That's why numerous other people besides Jean and members of her family have been able to host it.

this isn't opinion it was stated fact in these very comics that i just pointed out. it is not a seperate entity. endsong pointed out the fiery woman. Jean is phoenix. The force is Jean's very own physcial powers.


I just posted what comics to read to see why i pointed it out. Read issue #101-137. 1976-1980. adventures backup story #27 1981,Jean's backstory from her childhood to adult. when Jean was a child she was Phoenix. X-men issue #8 1986, the fiery gold woman.which was Jean. classic X-men back up story # 42 classic X-men backup story #43. 1990.

Wolverine issue#125 1998. Jean appeared in there right in the narrative boxes it explains that Jean is Phoenix the force was Jean's physical powers.

All stated as fact in comics. Not opinion.

 

[weatherwitch]

I never called Jean/phoenix a god. I said the force was a part of Jean's very own genetic makeup.


Also i disagree. Rachel can tap into the force from jean because all the force is Jean's Tp/tk that's what the force is, classic X-men issue #42 pointed out that it would go to Jean's children because it would be their genetic makeup to have it, and to be able to tap into the force. The force is Jean's TP/TK . Rachel Tp/Tk.


Also jean as the goldwoman or fiery woman visited Rachel in Rachel's timeline there was an issue in excalibur because someone showed it on another messageboard a couple of years back.I don't remember the issue number though but that's when Rachel tapped into the force.
If you want to know about the fiery woman, or gold woman which Jean just split's whatever which part of her powers off Tp/Tk i suggest classic X-men issue #8.The Inferno is another good read.

Also classic X-men #43 yup the white unform when Jean resurrects in the sphere herself, and fate, and jean explains what the force is. Another great issue with Jean appearing it is explained what the force is as well is wolverine issue #125.

Jean grey when she wasn't using her codename as Phoenix has flown in space by putting a tk sheathe around her body,and that was her as Jean grey without being Phoenix.

I had a similar debate with Pejo over this matter--and Pejo is a Phoenix dictionary, but the fact remains the same...Phoenix is not a manifestation of Jean's genetic makeup or powers. In fact on Marvel's own directory it lists Jean as : Phoenix Force host.

Host. That means the power is a seperate entity. "Her powers were magnified to near-infinite levels while she served as an avatar for the cosmic Phoenix Force."

The Phoenix Force is an immortal, indestructible, and mutable manifestation of the prime universal force of life. Hence the scream of "I am fire, I am life incarnate!" by the Phoenix hosts. The Phoenix Force has existed even before the Big Bang of the Universe--thus making it an impossibility for it to be Jean. Phoenix is among the most feared beings in the entire universe--as we know from the S'hiar hunting it down.

In Endsong, Pak himself stated the results were to be that we learn during the series that Jean Grey is the closest thing the Phoenix Force has to a true earthly Avatar or physical embodiment and further that the Phoenix Force empowers Jean with life in a kind of mutualistic relationship or psychic bond. Phoenix and Jean are bonded, yes. But one? No. Red+Blue=Purple Jean+Phoenix Force=Phoenix.

Jean Grey is fine on her own. Why does she need to be some amped up mutant with infinite powers? She doesn't. I think it would be interesting to see how she deals with teh seperation of the force from herself--and how the Phoenix Force deals with that. Jean gave the Phoenix her morality, to take that away...well, that's one hell of a story.

 

[Specter313]

this isn't opinion it was stated fact in these very comics that i just pointed out. it is not a seperate entity. endsong pointed out the fiery woman. Jean is phoenix. The force is Jean's very own physcial powers.


I just posted what comics to read to see why i pointed it out. Read issue #101-137. 1976-1980. adventures backup story #27 1981,Jean's backstory from her childhood to adult. when Jean was a child she was Phoenix. X-men issue #8 1986, the fiery gold woman.which was Jean. classic X-men back up story # 42 classic X-men backup story #43. 1990.

Wolverine issue#125 1998. Jean appeared in there right in the narrative boxes it explains that Jean is Phoenix the force was Jean's physical powers.

All stated as fact in comics. Not opinion.

Uh, no. Yet again, it's been stated NUMEROUS times that the Phoenix Entity has existed long before Jean was ever born. Also, several other people have hosted the Phoenix force, who were not in Jean's bloodline. If what you are saying is true, then that would not be possible. You're not giving me any proof besides just saying she was Phoenix. Tell me the actual story surrounding those issues or show scans, because all you're likely telling me is stuff that happened after she hosted the Phoenix Entity. Not everyone is able to get these comics. But again, plenty of stuff recently, especially Endsong and Warsong, are showing that Jean and the Phoenix Entity are two separate beings. Hence why in Endsong and Warsong, they're clearly showing it having its own agenda. Again, it's a big fact that they are separate, and really, there's nothing you can show to really prove otherwise that doesn't come off like an opinion.

 

[Snikt 6]

^Spec's got it. They are separate and they should be. Jean is the perfect "host" for Phoenix, but Phoenix chooses who it will be connected to. I guess I was looking forward to seeing Jean in this LS, but it is titled "Phoenix Warsong" after all.....

 

[BrianWilly]

I don't want to agree or disagree with anyone or nitpick here, but lemme just point this out...The Phoenix Force entity is just a force, like electricity or magnetism or friction. It's not a person. Saying that it is a separate entity from Jean is completely missing the point, it's like saying magnetism is a separate force from Magneto or that the weather is a separate entity from Storm. Of course this is more large-scale than that, but the point remains the same: The Phoenix Force belongs to Jean. She, as the Phoenix, is its rightful user as designed by the universe itself. Being the Phoenix is her mutation. Maybe she didn't create the Phoenix Force, but she is the Phoenix.

And here's my long-winded evidence, as I recently posted elsewhere:

As for the sources:

Chris Claremont, throughout his entire career, has stated that the Phoenix is an aspect of Jean's own power. That's how the Phoenix started off, after all. At every possible opportunity -- especially within the past few years as the original coccoon recton has become obsolete -- he's been quick to tie the Phoenix intrinsically to Jean. He had the Watcher specifically state that the Phoenix is Jean. He had Rachel Grey specifically say "I'm not the Phoenix, my mom is."

Fabian Nicieza states, in X-Men Forever, that the Phoenix ("The Resurrection Force") is an evolutionary aspect that humanity will eventually reach, and specifically points to Jean as the forerunner and representative of this state. Nicieza, incidentally, was the very first writer to use the term "omega-class mutant," in this very same miniseries, and introduces Jean and Bobby as the first ever confirmed.

As we all know, Grant Morrison builds on that line of thought, firmly establishing the Phoenix as the representation of Jean Grey's omega class potential throughout New X-Men. What's interesting is that he shows the Phoenix Force having a separate voice than Jean, but housing the exact same power.
And, of course, he states that the the Phoenix is the ultimate mutation. Mutation. Not "separate cosmic force." Being the Phoenix is Jean's mutation. There. Canon.

And I suppose I don't even need to mention what Greg Pak did throughout Phoenix: Endsong, tying all of the loose ends together and fixing all the holes left by the original coccoon retcon. If there's a different way to interpret the phrase "I am you" that Jean says to the Force or "You and I are one" that the Force says to Jean, I'd like to hear it.

Oh hey, and I even forgot one writer. Joe Kelly had Jean displaying a flaming Phoenix effect during his late 90s run, and had Jean saying that this was her own power that she was tired of hiding for fear of others' reactions. Her own power. Real flames, real Phoenix effect. Years before Morrison confirmed the return of the Force. I mostly bring this up to shut up all the naysayers who keep saying, "Jean only made pink psychic Phoenixes without the Force in her, she wasn't capable of making the real Phoenix." No she didn't, and yes she was.

So there you have it: five different writers all saying the same thing.

Greg Pak has only been reinforcing all of that throughout Warsong. He even has a fragment of the Phoenix Force itself appear in this issue and go "btch, plz" to the renegade Stepford, showing that there are some "right" owners of the PF and some "wrong" owners.

 

[weatherwitch]

I don't want to agree or disagree with anyone or nitpick here, but lemme just point this out...The Phoenix Force entity is just a force, like electricity or magnetism or friction. It's not a person. Saying that it is a separate entity from Jean is completely missing the point, it's like saying magnetism is a separate force from Magneto or that the weather is a separate entity from Storm. Of course this is more large-scale than that, but the point remains the same: The Phoenix Force belongs to Jean. She, as the Phoenix, is its rightful user as designed by the universe itself. Being the Phoenix is her mutation. Maybe she didn't create the Phoenix Force, but she is the Phoenix.

And here's my long-winded evidence, as I recently posted elsewhere:

So there you have it: five different writers all saying the same thing.

Greg Pak has only been reinforcing all of that throughout Warsong. He even has a fragment of the Phoenix Force itself appear in this issue and go "btch, plz" to the renegade Stepford, showing that there are some "right" owners of the PF and some "wrong" owners.

Your quoting sources that no longer have much to do with the Phoenix arc. And for arguements sake let's assume it's a force to be weilded--Excalibur is a sword to be weilded by Arthor. Does that make Aurthor and Excalibur one in the same? No. It makes him capable of weilding it. No one said Jean wasn't the Phoenix in that sense. The point is, retcon it all they want, the Phoenix is not Jean. It has been around since the dawn of time and hosted by others. It's a moot point at this rate, because Jean has no place in the story right now. If (and I'm sure when) Marvel brings her back i think they will finally seperate the two.

As for the Phoenix being part of Jean's mutation--Storm can't pass over her weather power or Magneto his magnitism. When that day happens where mutant power is transferrable, then that arguement may hold water. The Phoenix had a conscious when it met Jean, it referred to itself as "Phoenix" adn as "I". It is a seperate being, not merely a force. Phoenix as we know it today was given morality and heart by Jean--not existence.

 

[Snikt 6]

^Wow, this is getting pretty good.

 

[BrianWilly]

Your quoting sources that no longer have much to do with the Phoenix arc.

What the heck do you mean, "no longer have much to do with the Phoenix arc"?? Most of those sources are the Phoenix arcs! Some of them tie specifically to this very miniseries that we are discussing right now! Endsong was the prequel. And Pak is following up very specifically a lot of Morrison's storylines. By now, instances of Jean being the Phoenix are beginning to outnumber instances where she isn't. How come those instances don't matter simply because you say they don't matter?

And for arguements sake let's assume it's a force to be weilded--Excalibur is a sword to be weilded by Arthor. Does that make Aurthor and Excalibur one in the same? No. It makes him capable of weilding it.

Apples and oranges. There's a blatant difference between a physical weapon that one can pick up and put away at their leisure versus a spiritual entity that resides within your body and responds specifically to your body's genetic traits.

No one said Jean wasn't the Phoenix in that sense. The point is, retcon it all they want, the Phoenix is not Jean. It has been around since the dawn of time and hosted by others. It's a moot point at this rate, because Jean has no place in the story right now.

First of all, if they "retcon" in the fact that the Phoenix is Jean, then the Phoenix is Jean. Period. That's the definition of a retcon. You may not like it, you may not understand it, you may not even care to acknowledge it...it doesn't matter; it'd still be canon.

Secondly, why do people always use that "The Phoenix Force has been around since the dawn of time" line to justify the Phoenix not being Jean? That doesn't show that the Phoenix isn't Jean, in fact that has practically nothing to do with this. No one's saying that Jean is the Phoenix Force, we're saying that Jean is the Phoenix, the one who owns the Phoenix Force. The problem is that you're all still thinking of the Phoenix Force as a person. It's not a person. Jean is a person. Jean is a person who uses the Phoenix Force. The Phoenix Force could have been around since forever and Jean Grey could have been around since yesterday, and she could still be the one person whose mutation grants her the right by blood and privilege to be the Phoenix.

So what if it has been hosted by others before? Not a one of them...not a one...displayed a connection to the Phoenix as natural and instinctive and intimate and powerful and long-term as Jean did. How many of the other hosts had eventually been burnt out or even ultimately rejected by the Force in a way that has never happened to Jean?...oh right, that'd be all of them. Hell, Jean had to reject the Phoenix Force, once...which is what sent it running for the replacements in the first place; in the absence of Jean herself, the Phoenix Force had to settle on second-best, searching for hosts that best resemble Jean genetically...her daughter and her clone.

Do you understand what the Phoenix Force actually is? It is the sum of all sentient life that has ever existed or will ever exist, which is just a fancy way of saying that it is the wellspring of all psychic energy in the universe. So every single psychic has a form of the Phoenix Force in them, just on an extremely microcosmic scale. The more powerful a psychic you are, the more alike you are to the Phoenix; that's why the Shi'ar refer to absurdly extreme psychic sensitivity as the "manifestation of the Phoenix." Jean Grey is an omega-class psychic; this is, of course, canon. Her specific mutation is the exact type and capacity which allows her the most perfect access to the psychic wellspring of the Phoenix Force...yes, the one that has existed since the dawn of time. This is her "mutant power." And this is canon as established by those above five writers I cited, whether you like it or not. Until Marvel comes up with someone else whose mutant power is to do this, Jean is the only one. And no, as powerful as Rachel is, she's not the one; she herself said that the Phoenix is her mother and not her.

If (and I'm sure when) Marvel brings her back i think they will finally seperate the two.

And until they do, I'm still right.

As for the Phoenix being part of Jean's mutation--Storm can't pass over her weather power or Magneto his magnitism. When that day happens where mutant power is transferrable, then that arguement may hold water.

What do you mean, "pass over?" Other mutants can control the weather. Other mutants can control magnetism. Does that mean that Storm doesn't actually control the weather, just because other people do? When did I ever say that Jean was the only person capable of hosting the Force? She's just the only one who was meant to.

The Phoenix had a conscious when it met Jean, it referred to itself as "Phoenix" adn as "I". It is a seperate being, not merely a force. Phoenix as we know it today was given morality and heart by Jean--not existence.

Pure semantics. Of course the Phoenix Force is sentient and conscious; it's supposed to represent life, isn't it? But it didn't have a soul or a body -- again, it's only a force and not an actual, individual being -- it only understood the desire for a soul and a body. Just think about it for a second: how can you possibly be a separate "being" of your own if you are an abstract metaphysical force throughout the cosmos? That makes no sense, it contradicts the definition of "being," not to mention everything we know about the Phoenix Force itself.

Jean Grey is the person, the being, who completes that missing equation, the one who provides the Force with the soul and body and human understanding and compassion for it to carry out its duty (perpetuating the evolution of life by burning away what doesn't work, thus ensuring that the universe stays on the right track and can be reborn into a new universe at the end of this one). That's why Jean and the Phoenix Force say, "You and I are one" to each other. They're two separate parts of the whole. That's why I said that viewing the Phoenix Force as a separate thing from Jean is completely missing the point; obviously the Phoenix Force is not "Jean Grey" in the sense that the psychic force that has existed since the dawn of time is not the mutant female born on Earth in America during the 20th Century, but they are bond by their very natures in ways that are far more significant than that.

And yet again, I feel the sudden need to remind everyone that all this is straight from the comics, straight from the sources that I've already listed. Five different authors, all saying the same exact thing. That's my evidence; what's yours, other than "I don't think that's the way it works and I don't like it"?

 

[weatherwitch]

^ Dude, it's a comic.

First of all, if they "retcon" in the fact that the Phoenix is Jean, then the Phoenix is Jean. Period. That's the definition of a retcon. You may not like it, you may not understand it, you may not even care to acknowledge it...it doesn't matter; it'd still be canon.

They're retconning a retcon and in doing so creating a plethora of wholes in the theory that Jean is the Phoenix--implying that the force stems from her. This is where I think you're missing my point entirely...

No one's saying that Jean is the Phoenix Force, we're saying that Jean is the Phoenix, the one who owns the Phoenix Force.

--Agreed. I never said otherwise. If Pejo were around he'd tell you, I believe Jean was destined to host the Phoenix. Period. My problem with Phoenix fans that don't know the history is that they believe Phoenix stems from Jean and Jean alone and no, it doesn't.

The problem is that you're all still thinking of the Phoenix Force as a person. It's not a person. Jean is a person.

I'm gonna go with "well duh" here. I never ever said Phoenix was a person--in fact I said it gainedits conscience and morality from Jean. However, I (along with others--including Pak) consider it a sentient being.

Side note:

Other mutants can control the weather.

I'm curious. Name one? Shaman can cast a spell on it, but he can't control it. So, I'm curious...who else? Magnetism, yup Polaris has that, but weather? I can't think of anyone else.

Back to topic: As for pass over I mean Ororo can't hand her weather powers over to T'challa or even their offspring. They are genetically hers. Jean's gift is psychic ability, that is hers. Her gift is not to manifest the Phoenix (again this is where people seem to get confused and defensive--sure she is the chosen host, but that's it)--that's part of her destiny, not her mutation.

Of course the Phoenix Force is sentient and conscious; it's supposed to represent life, isn't it? But it didn't have a soul or a body -- again, it's only a force and not an actual, individual being -- it only understood the desire for a soul and a body.

If it had desire and a consciousness, then yes, it is an individual being. Human? No. But it's own being, yes. That's not semantics, that's logic.

obviously the Phoenix Force is not "Jean Grey" in the sense that the psychic force that has existed since the dawn of time is not the mutant female born on Earth in America during the 20th Century, but they are bond...

Dude, this is exactly what I said. Jean is not the Phoenix, she is it's weilder, chosen by the Force itself. We actually agree on that. The only difference is that I believe the Force has and will be shown to have its own individual identity outside of Jean.

Merry Christams and all!

 

[Harlekin]

Monsoon can control the weather.

 

[BrianWilly]

They're retconning a retcon and in doing so creating a plethora of wholes in the theory that Jean is the Phoenix--implying that the force stems from her. This is where I think you're missing my point entirely...

I don't get the impression that they are implying that the force stems, literally, from her. I do think that Jean and the Phoenix are so intrinsically, physically, and spiritually tied at the hip that a lot of times the false impression of that is given, even though what the writers actually meant to convey was something else. There is a difference between saying "The Phoenix is Jean's mutant power" and saying "The Phoenix stems from Jean." Like I said, magnetism is Magneto's mutant power, but he's not the source of magnetism in the world. And like I said, the Phoenix is just psychic energy. Jean manifests the Phoenix through her psychic abilities, her telekinesis and telepathy; that power is hers. The limitless telekinetic/telepathic capacity that can shape worlds at the subatomic level or on a cosmic scale is Jean's mutation. What the Phoenix Force actually does for Jean is to shape and guide her powers and "show" her what is already hers.

Why does the Phoenix even need a host body? Why is the Shi'ar only afraid of it when it manifests corporeally? Because incorporeally it can't do anything. Only by acting through Jean's powers does it have any real power.

--Agreed. I never said otherwise. If Pejo were around he'd tell you, I believe Jean was destined to host the Phoenix. Period. My problem with Phoenix fans that don't know the history is that they believe Phoenix stems from Jean and Jean alone and no, it doesn't.

The omega-class "ultimate mutation" psychic potential which manifests the Phoenix is one-hundred percent Jean's. Like it or not, the evolutionary aspect of the Phoenix is a part of its canon. Humanity will one day evolve into Eternity and begin the universe again. The Phoenix is a crucial factor of that equation. Jean wields that force by birthright, by her very specific mutation. Evolution literally created her and her powers in order to sustain the universe. If that's not saying that Jean Grey's mutant power is the Phoenix Force, then I don't know what is.

I'm gonna go with "well duh" here. I never ever said Phoenix was a person--in fact I said it gainedits conscience and morality from Jean. However, I (along with others--including Pak) consider it a sentient being.

A sentient being because of its association with Jean. That's paramount. I think the fact that the Phoenix occasionally appears as a glowing humanoid woman is misleading to a lot of people; that's not the Phoenix's true shape. If you actually look at it, that's Jean's form. The only physical form it knows is the one that it copied from Jean; this was true even when Rachel was hosting it, and the Force occasionally spoke to Rachel in the form of a long-haired woman!

Even now in Warsong, as we witness a fragment of the Phoenix acting individually on its own away from the "whole" Phoenix, it does the only thing it knows how to do: copy someone else's form, in this case the form of Celeste. And when it talks about "the Phoenix," it shows the Stepford an image of Jean Grey. Not to mention that it refers to the main Phoenix as "her." Now cosmic forces have genders? Of course it does; it has Jean's.

Side note: I'm curious. Name one? Shaman can cast a spell on it, but he can't control it. So, I'm curious...who else? Magnetism, yup Polaris has that, but weather? I can't think of anyone else.

Wind Dancer can -- or used to be able to -- control the wind.

Back to topic: As for pass over I mean Ororo can't hand her weather powers over to T'challa or even their offspring. They are genetically hers. Jean's gift is psychic ability, that is hers. Her gift is not to manifest the Phoenix (again this is where people seem to get confused and defensive--sure she is the chosen host, but that's it)--that's part of her destiny, not her mutation.

First of all, as I explained, in the Marvel universe "psychic ability" is merely just another way of describing an extremely microcosmic manifestation of the Phoenix.

And second of all...huh? A lot of mutant traits are passed down from parents. Polaris got magnetism from Magneto. Cable and Rachel got mental powers from Jean. Nightcrawler got blue skin from his mother and his appearance and abilities from...SIGH...his father. Depending on how it works out, Wiccan may have gotten magic control from his mother the Scarlet Witch. There's probably a lot of other examples I'm not remembering right now.

It is her destiny because of her specific mutation. How can she be destined to become the Phoenix, after all, if she wasn't physically capable of being it? How can she be the one chosen by the Force if there are, whoops, actually other people whose physical traits make them better suited for it than she?

If it had desire and a consciousness, then yes, it is an individual being. Human? No. But it's own being, yes. That's not semantics, that's logic.

A computer could have a desire and consciousness simply by having them programmed into it. It's not true life, just the imitation of one. And without the aspect of Jean, the woman who grew up on Earth and lived and loved and died...that's exactly all that the Force is. Sure it exists. But being its own being? You might as well call a laptop its own being.

Dude, this is exactly what I said. Jean is not the Phoenix, she is it's weilder, chosen by the Force itself. We actually agree on that. The only difference is that I believe the Force has and will be shown to have its own individual identity outside of Jean.

The only individual identity it has is the one that it copied from Jean. The only personality that it has, it learned from Jean. That's why it went to her in the first place. The instances where you see the Force seemingly act out on its own, it was a fragment of the whole of which Jean Grey is a pivotal piece.

That's why I keep on saying, over and over and over and over again, that to go "This is Jean Grey, and this is the Phoenix Force, and they're not the same thing" is just missing the point. Of course that's true, but that's not the end of the story! The Phoenix Force affects Jean's entire life, it guides her decisions and even molds her powers; at any given time she has about as much as the Phoenix chooses to let her have. And the persona of Jean Grey shapes the Phoenix Force in her own image in all respects: loves and desires, even down to their very souls. The equation of Jean is a fragment of the whole, just as the equation of the PF is a fragment of the same whole. They are one. The true state of both is to achieve a harmony and coexistence to the point where there are literally no differences between the two concepts, where it's literally impossible to tell one from the other.