Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[Nell2ThaIzzay]

Those are thing that can be overlooked. things like logan jumping from a water fall clean as a whistle and then logan covered in blood escaping through a door cant be overlooked. though i still think it can be fixed....

Again, it doesn't change the actual story.

And I'm not saying I'm not disappointed - I would have liked to see Wolverine going through a whole lot more than just 2 guys in the Weapon X complex, and to have it be a bit closer to the X2 flashbacks.

But the fact that they weren't exact still isn't anything that effects the actual story.

 

[uchiha_itachi]

i think it effects story as in the x-2 flashbacks he looks like a completly broken man...and you would be after somthing like that.


to Ipodman:

nah not unrated dvds. in the other films. im not saying in the next film but maybe the one after, have him captured by weapon x and mind wiped then used for team x again but this time have him completly under weapon x's control. i belive he's been captured by weapon x more than once and used? obviously make it more interesting than his first encounter with them because you dont want to watch XMWO again but told different. then have him escape just after a memory wipe or somthing then copy x-2's flashback. i think that would work and it would fix the trauma aspect of it.

 

[chaseter]

There will not be an unrated edition dvd or a dc of this film. Lauren Shuller said there were not very many deleted scenes and she was right about it being way under two hours.

 

[mojo-x]

It's a plot hole in X-Men, far greater than anything in X-Men: The Last Stand or X-Men Origins: Wolverine. I find it to be the biggest plot hole in the entire franchise.

Cyclops and Storm are going to save Logan.

Sabretooth is there to capture Rogue.

But how did Magneto know about Rogue to send Sabretooth to track her? He doesn't have a Cerebro of his own, and he is not psychic.

How did Xavier know about Magneto's plans to send the X-Men to counter? Xavier doesn't spend all day everyday in Cerebro, and he also can't track Magneto due to the helmet. But even for the sake of argument, if he WAS able to track Magneto and Sabretooth, why would they be so convinced that Logan was the key to Magneto's plot when Magneto had been tracking Rogue?

When it is revealed that Magneto is after Rogue, everyone from Logan to Rogue to Xavier are shocked.

It's a plot convenience that we as the audience are just expected to accept, and not question.

Well, it's a plot convenience that I have noticed, via watching the movie about a billion times, but it's also a convenience I am willing to accept because I am more concerned with the overall story than letting petty details ruin a film for me.

So if I don't let THAT bother me, why am I going to let little things like Wolverine's dogtags effect me when they aren't even a fraction of the plot hole that we have in X-Men?

My biggest continuity problem with X1 was what happened to that phone Senator Kelly was using when Mystique captured him. The biggest plot-hole in X1 is Magnetos plan to make his enemies mutants. I understand the logic the movie used, and anytime I watch X1 I always assume that it is an unnatural mutations that will make none mutants sick and even cause death. It just seems out of character for Magneto to willing give his enemies’ powers to use against him.

 

[roach]

My biggest continuity problem with X1 was what happened to that phone Senator Kelly was using when Mystique captured him. The biggest plot-hole in X1 is Magnetos plan to make his enemies mutants. I understand the logic the movie used, and anytime I watch X1 I always assume that it is an unnatural mutations that will make none mutants sick and even cause death. It just seems out of character for Magneto to willing give his enemies’ powers to use against him.

The thinking was if everyone became mutants then no one would hunt them down....an analogy was mentioned in the school about Rome....they didnt stop killing christians until the Roman Caesar became a christian

 

[Ace of Knaves]

My big problem with Magneto's plot in X1 was that if his machine can turn normal humans into mutants, how does it not effect mutants? With the "logic" they use surely it would send mutants mutations into overdrive.

 

[chamber-music]

If someone asked Rothman about plotholes he would probabley use the Chewbacca defense

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

There were a lot of holes in X1 but the mutation machine didn't bother me because I think Magneto was lying to everyone as it was, I think the machine produced unnatural mutation that was INTENDED to kill ordinary human beings, but he rallied his brotherhood by saying that he was going to turn the worlds leaders into mutants when in all actuality he wanted to kill them all so he himself could become THE world leader. Even after he was warned about the machine he continued with his plan completely unfazed, almost as if he already knew what it would do....and then his intentions are made pretty clear by X2 when he tries to kill every human in the world. As I said, a lot of holes in X1, but this one didn't bother me because of this logical explanation.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

But it still doesn't explain how it doesn't effect mutants, at all. It accelerated Kelly's mutation, why not people that are already mutants?

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

I'm guessing because it only targets the dormant X gene, and if the gene isn't dormant than it can't have an effect.

 

[TheZink]

Long time lurker around these boards and I don't post very often but I felt it was needed.

It is nitpicking, because a different suit between movies, or different looking dogtags have no bearing what so ever on the actual film.

If little details have no bearing on a film, then how about Mary Jane have brown hair in the Spiderman sequels? Or Aunt-May gets a face lift? What if we go to the Scarlet Spider costume because it looks cool?

If enough small details are looked over, changed and not respected it soons becomes an entire different look and feel for the movie all together.

Compare Batman Forever to Batman Returns.

It's also selective, as well, because you're not complaining about the same continuity errors between X-Men and X2 like the different actors and actresses playing Kitty Pryde and Pyro, the difference in Cerebro between the 2 movies, and Rogue's unexplained fluctuation in power.

Different actresses and actors comes from budget and many times is out of the directors hands. That's like saying Brian Singer messed up continuity because he did not use Christopher Reeves as Superman.

The Cerebro change was more to do with budget. Xmen1 only had a modest budget of 75million, where X2 had $110million more. I'm sure if Singer had the money for X1 we'd have seen something a bit more similar in both movies.

The point is, the changes or sacrifices Singer did was not because he didn't care but rather he had no choice.

For XO:W the changes never had to be made. The budget was there and the resources and story already laid out. They were just sloppy over-looks

And that jacket is even different from X-Men to X-Men: The Last Stand.

We're talking about X-men: TLS here...its terrible in many aspects.

As far as the escape screen its just gives a huge glaring issue with the movie in general:

1) If Logan's memory was wiped from the bullet, why does he have flash-backs, dreams and such from the surgery during X1 and X2?

2) During the escape in X1 and X2, Logan looks mortified at his claws. Its a complete "Holy ****! WTF are these things!?!" You get a very strong that a) these were implanted, or b) Logan's memory was wiped and he never remember having the claws.

So why didn't Hood and crew go with option B? Memory implants could have been used to completely mess up Logan's memory. How much better would it have been to have a movie seen through Logan's eyes and memory with a fragmented past that he tries to piece together and determine what is actually real and what is fabricated?

3) The escape itself was lack-luster to say the least. You can see from X2 alone he did some damage from claw marks on walls and such. He drops 2 guys and then runs the hell away. You just got made indestructable. The bastards that betrayed you are 10 feet from you. You now have razor sharp claws, your healing factor and are pissed. This is the opportunity to kill Stryer, Zero and any other people in your way....and you tuck tail and run...wtf.

There's many more issues I have with the movie, especially after finishing the game and realising that a plot similar to the game would have not only been full of less holes, but actually more like Wolverine and been more entertaing.

Here's hope for a reboot in 10years with a rated R movie.

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

Long time lurker around these boards and I don't post very often but I felt it was needed.



If little details have no bearing on a film, then how about Mary Jane have brown hair in the Spiderman sequels? Or Aunt-May gets a face lift? What if we go to the Scarlet Spider costume because it looks cool?

If enough small details are looked over, changed and not respected it soons becomes an entire different look and feel for the movie all together.

Compare Batman Forever to Batman Returns.

Different actresses and actors comes from budget and many times is out of the directors hands. That's like saying Brian Singer messed up continuity because he did not use Christopher Reeves as Superman.

The Cerebro change was more to do with budget. Xmen1 only had a modest budget of 75million, where X2 had $110million more. I'm sure if Singer had the money for X1 we'd have seen something a bit more similar in both movies.

The point is, the changes or sacrifices Singer did was not because he didn't care but rather he had no choice.

For XO:W the changes never had to be made. The budget was there and the resources and story already laid out. They were just sloppy over-looks

We're talking about X-men: TLS here...its terrible in many aspects.

As far as the escape screen its just gives a huge glaring issue with the movie in general:

1) If Logan's memory was wiped from the bullet, why does he have flash-backs, dreams and such from the surgery during X1 and X2?

2) During the escape in X1 and X2, Logan looks mortified at his claws. Its a complete "Holy ****! WTF are these things!?!" You get a very strong that a) these were implanted, or b) Logan's memory was wiped and he never remember having the claws.

So why didn't Hood and crew go with option B? Memory implants could have been used to completely mess up Logan's memory. How much better would it have been to have a movie seen through Logan's eyes and memory with a fragmented past that he tries to piece together and determine what is actually real and what is fabricated?

3) The escape itself was lack-luster to say the least. You can see from X2 alone he did some damage from claw marks on walls and such. He drops 2 guys and then runs the hell away. You just got made indestructable. The bastards that betrayed you are 10 feet from you. You now have razor sharp claws, your healing factor and are pissed. This is the opportunity to kill Stryer, Zero and any other people in your way....and you tuck tail and run...wtf.

There's many more issues I have with the movie, especially after finishing the game and realising that a plot similar to the game would have not only been full of less holes, but actually more like Wolverine and been more entertaing.

Here's hope for a reboot in 10years with a rated R movie.

Oh dear goodness.....where do I begin?

"If little details have no bearing on a film, then how about Mary Jane have brown hair in the Spiderman sequels? Or Aunt-May gets a face lift? What if we go to the Scarlet Spider costume because it looks cool?

If enough small details are looked over, changed and not respected it soons becomes an entire different look and feel for the movie all together.

Compare Batman Forever to Batman Returns."

Those are NOT little difference.....those are HUGE difference. Dog tags, hair style, jacket.....those are little......SS costume, Brunette MJ, those are huge and shouldn't even be used for comparison if you want to be taken seriously.

NEVER compare Forever and Returns! Lol, those were completely different movies in a completely different setting, so again that point has failed.


"Different actresses and actors comes from budget and many times is out of the directors hands. That's like saying Brian Singer messed up continuity because he did not use Christopher Reeves as Superman."

Actors change all the time that's no surprise, but sometimes they change when they don't need to. Aside from that.....there are a but load of reasons why Singer screwed up without haveing to add anything

"The point is, the changes or sacrifices Singer did was not because he didn't care but rather he had no choice."

Now if we wanna talk about crappy changes made, lets talk about Singer telling Rouge and Storm to drop their accents by X2....how bout that can o' beans? Where did his choice disappear to here? He DIDN'T care about continuity here, and he didn't care when he went from Wolverine wearing Canadian tags in the first movie to haveing him working for the U.S. government and having those tags presented by a U.S. officer by the second.

"For XO:W the changes never had to be made. The budget was there and the resources and story already laid out. They were just sloppy over-looks"

No.....most of them were done to make up for past mistakes


"1) If Logan's memory was wiped from the bullet, why does he have flash-backs, dreams and such from the surgery during X1 and X2?"

I'm sorry....who said it was wiped out?? I must have missed that line of dialog. His body is constantly trying to heal itself, but his brain can't heal fully if a bullet is logged into his brain and into the adimantium in his skull. The bullet sits there unable to be pushed out by his healing factor and he is unable to regrow certain portions of his brain.

"2) During the escape in X1 and X2, Logan looks mortified at his claws. Its a complete "Holy ****! WTF are these things!?!" You get a very strong that a) these were implanted, or b) Logan's memory was wiped and he never remember having the claws."

Thats because "Origin" was written after X1, and because "Origin" provided a unique and comic accurate portrayal of Logan's origins the movie, which is titled X-Men ORIGINS: WOLVERINE, decided to use his origin in which he has BONE claws that he has always used.

I will agree that scene in X2 was fing amazing! I wish it had been done more like that, but it wasn't and I understand why.....that doesn't stop me from enjoying the flick.

"There's many more issues I have with the movie, especially after finishing the game and realising that a plot similar to the game would have not only been full of less holes, but actually more like Wolverine and been more entertaing."

The game was bad ass! I would have loved to see some of those elements in the movie, but we also got to see alot more in teh movie that the game didn't show, but thats why we got the game, thats why Jackman voiced it, thats why Marvel participated in it so strongly.....to give us that extra something we couldn't get in the film.

"Here's hope for a reboot in 10years with a rated R movie."

I would love to see an R rated Wolverine movie, but I will never actualy expect to see one. He is more marketable than Spider-Man now.....and thats saying A WHOLE LOT! The more marketable, the more the fanchise holders will tone him down for the kiddies. Thats the only reason why the Punisher gets R, its because he not nearly as marketable....you can't had a kids show staring the Punisher and showing him doing what he does, butwith Wolverine they found the median and have done it well. As a fan I apreciate all that we have gotten so far, its far more than I saw us getting 10 years ago.

 

[TheZink]

Those are NOT little difference.....those are HUGE difference. Dog tags, hair style, jacket.....those are little......SS costume, Brunette MJ, those are huge and shouldn't even be used for comparison if you want to be taken seriously.

How is a Brunette MJ huge? Does it change the character? Does it change her personality in any way?

Don't get me wrong I wouldn't like it, but I don't see it as a huge change.

Huge changes to me are making Professor X a black man with dreadlocks and can walk (being silly of course).

Like I said, its not that the changes are big or small. And its not what the changes are. Its the fact that the changes never needed to happen, AND they are numerous ones.

NEVER compare Forever and Returns! Lol, those were completely different movies in a completely different setting, so again that point has failed.

That's the point. Its the same character but when SO many things have been changed you loose the feel and tone of the character. I'm not saying Origins was in where close, but it still lost some of that badassery and just other moods X1 and X2 had.

Actors change all the time that's no surprise, but sometimes they change when they don't need to. Aside from that.....there are a but load of reasons why Singer screwed up without haveing to add anything

Yes it would have been nice if Kitty Pride and Pyro were the same characters, but I like the characters we ended up with. They were hardly used in the first movie (one scene each right?) Perhaps the actors originally used were terrible at acting and were just merely all that could be found. Again, budget limited the first movie.

Now if we wanna talk about crappy changes made, lets talk about Singer telling Rouge and Storm to drop their accents by X2....how bout that can o' beans? Where did his choice disappear to here? He DIDN'T care about continuity here,

I'm not excusing everything he changed. I didn't like Halle Berry as Storm and I really didn't care for Rogue's character either. So things like that had little affect on my enjoyment of the movie. But you are right, it is stupid changes. He probably didn't care since the X-men movies have basically been "Wolverine and the Xmen".

and he didn't care when he went from Wolverine wearing Canadian tags in the first movie to haveing him working for the U.S. government and having those tags presented by a U.S. officer by the second.

Not saying I liked it. I've hated how its looked as if everything flipped-flopped from US to Canada and back. A couple of lines in Origins would have been nice to show the Weapon X program being under Department H which was funded by BOTH Canada and US.

No.....most of them were done to make up for past mistakes

How is the escape scene, Cyclops laser blast, Dog Tags, and others make up for mistakes?

I'm sorry....who said it was wiped out?? I must have missed that line of dialog. His body is constantly trying to heal itself, but his brain can't heal fully if a bullet is logged into his brain and into the adimantium in his skull. The bullet sits there unable to be pushed out by his healing factor and he is unable to regrow certain portions of his brain.

I'm pretty sure Stryker says "This will wipe his memories"

So again, if his memories are wiped away completely at that point in time, why does he have the flask backs? I think the bullet was a completely poor choice to use, and I would have preferred memory implants, or Wolverine just going completely beserk and his brain surpressing the memories on its own as it has done in the comics many times over.

Thats because "Origin" was written after X1, and because "Origin" provided a unique and comic accurate portrayal of Logan's origins the movie, which is titled X-Men ORIGINS: WOLVERINE, decided to use his origin in which he has BONE claws that he has always used.

That's fine, but memory tampering would have still given the same results. Wouldn't you be shocked as hell to wake up with no idea of who you are and see these huge blades coming out of your arms?

I will agree that scene in X2 was fing amazing! I wish it had been done more like that, but it wasn't and I understand why.....that doesn't stop me from enjoying the flick.

I didn't enjoy the flick for many other reasons, these are just insults to injury.

The game was bad ass! I would have loved to see some of those elements in the movie, but we also got to see alot more in teh movie that the game didn't show, but thats why we got the game, thats why Jackman voiced it, thats why Marvel participated in it so strongly.....to give us that extra something we couldn't get in the film.

I honestly would have rathered they did the movie just like the film:

1) Don't show Cyclops...ever. It was unneeded. It would also put the debate over the change in Cyclops blast to rest. It could be the powers came from another mutant.

2) The fight between Creed and Logan and New Orleans to be cut. It was rather silly and honestly didn't make much sense with Gambit in the mix. Focus on a bad ass fight between Gambit and Logan and we'd all be happier.

3) The Blob scene. Game nailed it.

We could have done without the scene with Creed and Bolt (hell did his character really even need to be in this movie). The scenes with Wraith were great and I would have like more of them.

I would like to have seen more of Team X in action like shown in the game.

I would love to see an R rated Wolverine movie, but I will never actualy expect to see one. He is more marketable than Spider-Man now.....and thats saying A WHOLE LOT! The more marketable, the more the fanchise holders will tone him down for the kiddies. Thats the only reason why the Punisher gets R, its because he not nearly as marketable....you can't had a kids show staring the Punisher and showing him doing what he does, butwith Wolverine they found the median and have done it well. As a fan I apreciate all that we have gotten so far, its far more than I saw us getting 10 years ago.

Absolutely. It just pains me to think what we could have gotten. The movie could have been a psychological thriller. Logan should have been a bad ass. The atmosphere needed to be darker and grittier. I can live with a PG-13 movie as long as the feel and attitude is that of Wolverine.

 

[chaseter]

So MJ as a brunette is a huge change but Cyclops with heat laser eyes is alright!?

 

[Ace of Knaves]

[blackout]M.J not having red hair and Cyclops having SLIGHTLY different eye blasts is completely different.[/blackout]

 

[chaseter]

Yeah totally different I would say Cyclops having SLIGHTLY different powers is way more worse than MJ having a SLIGHTLY different hair color.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

[blackout]I'd have to disagree. He is still shooting red lasers out of his eyes. As soon as someone sees that they will automatically be like "Hey that's Cyclops!!!". You take away M.Js red hair and they'd be like "Who the hell is that?"[/blackout]

 

[chaseter]

[blackout]I'd have to disagree. He is still shooting red lasers out of his eyes. As soon as someone sees that they will automatically be like "Hey that's Cyclops!!!". You take away M.Js red hair and they'd be like "Who the hell is that?"[/blackout]

It doesn't change the character though. Changing someone's power is different than hair color. Giving Silverfox persuasion powers changed her character. Sure MJ's red hair is important but so is any mutant's power. They are both unnecessary changes. It can work in the context of a single movie like it did for Silverfox. If MJ's hair was changed to a brunette after 3 films, it would be seen as stupid. But, it is alright to change Cyclops' power after three films...that makes no sense.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Yea but it hasn't really changed his power, has it? If you wanna nit pick you can say "Ohh but his optic blast leaves scorch marks!!!" But to be honest, barely anyone gives a toss about that. And rightly so.

It's not as though they have changed his red beams to blue. Or given him the power of flight is it?

 

[Golgo-13]

It is nitpicking, because a different suit between movies, or different looking dogtags have no bearing what so ever on the actual film.

It's also selective, as well, because you're not complaining about the same continuity errors between X-Men and X2 like the different actors and actresses playing Kitty Pryde and Pyro, the difference in Cerebro between the 2 movies, and Rogue's unexplained fluctuation in power.

I do have an issue with the other X films too, but we're talking about Wolverine. I've also mentioned that the film makers need to pay closer attention to detail...with all the films.

 

[chaseter]

Yea but it hasn't really changed his power, has it? If you wanna nit pick you can say "Ohh but his optic blast leaves scorch marks!!!" But to be honest, barely anyone gives a toss about that. And rightly so.

It's not as though they have changed his red beams to blue. Or given him the power of flight is it?

And barely anyone would have given a toss if MJ was a brunette. The general audience doesn't care. They screwed up continuity...the end. They changed the character the 4th film in. There is no reason for that.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

They haven't changed the ****ing character though!! Christ, you think that his optic blasts leaving scorch marks is changing the character?!?! Seriously I find that hilarious. And Scott showed more leadership skills in this movie than any of the other movies.

 

[chaseter]

They haven't changed the ****ing character though!! Christ, you think that his optic blasts leaving scorch marks is changing the character?!?! Seriously I find that hilarious. And Scott showed more leadership skills in this movie than any of the other movies.

So how does MJ with a different hair color change her character?

How is that for a double standard? Defending the changes in this movie but calling changes in another franchise wrong?

 

[Ol'Canucklehead]

Don't try to debate with Chaseter Ace, you will never get through. He is very locked in what he believes and can't see that while Mary Jane has ALWAYS been a red head, Cyclops power has changed over 5 times through out comic history, and three in film history. Most anyone who has read the X-Men comics can tell you that, and even Stan Lee who created the X-Men said that Scott was meant to have "laser vision" or "laser eyes" with "laser blasts", but Chaseter doesn't want to hear that so let him live comfortably with whatever he wants to believe and don't let him provoke you into anything that, as we have discussed personally, will only come out badly for those in the right defending their message with passion.

 

[chaseter]

How has Cyclops' power changed 3 times in film history? Please also name me the 5 times that his power has changed in comic history, without the aid of Sinister or other power altering plot devices.

If Stan Lee wanted to have laser vision, why didn't he write that?

Cyclops has the power to emit beams of energy from his eyes. Although the beams have the appearance of red light (i.e., electromagnetic radiation in a red wavelength), they do not heat objects but instead deliver tremendous concussive force. Some accounts describe Cyclops' eye beams as the product of his body metabolizing sunlight and other ambient energy (much as his brother Havok metabolizes cosmic radiation) and releasing this energy in the form of beams (hence in some stories Cyclops depletes his body's energy reserves and needs to recharge through exposure to sunlight). Other accounts suggest that Cyclops' eyes may contain apertures to another dimension, releasing powerful energies from that dimension into his own in the form of beams. Whatever their exact source, these beams or 'optic blasts' are tremendously powerful, able to rupture steel plates and pulverize rock. Depending on the amount of energy channeled, the beams can be released in various widths, appearing in enormous bursts on rare occasions. They have been observed to level a skyscraper, or can be focused tight enough to punch a pin hole in a dime. Cyclops' beams have also been demonstrated to reflect off certain shiny surfaces; in concert with Cyclops' intuitive sense of spatial geometry, this reflective quality of his beams allows him to bounce the beams off many different surfaces in rapid succession so as to strike a desired target from an unexpected angle. Summers is immune to the harmful effects of his own powers — the natural psionic field which surrounds his body safely absorbs the energy of his beams if they should come into contact with his body. Scott is also immune to the power of his brother Alex, and vice versa. However, he is not immune to Vulcan's powers.

It isn't that hard to comprehend that this film changed his powers...they broke continuity.