Plot holes/poor storytelling discussion

[I Am The Knight]

The fact she doesn't know the comics is the actual point. She's not hung up on comic book details, she was looking at the film as a film and then at the film compared with the franchise. In both cases, she was satisfied.

Comic book purists who want literal translation are always going to be disappointed.

The truth is that any one person who doesn't takes movies too seriously should be fine with Wolverine. There is definitely some ridiculous stuff in this film (Wolverine crying to the heavens when Kayla dies, a lot of the dialogue wich was just rubbish, unintentional funny moments, the creepy elderly people who are clearly a nod/slap to Superman, etc...) But as a summer movie it is OK. I really liked it, mostly for the action, but most importantly because I didn't give a damn. I had no expectations.

Singer has done the best job so far at adapting the comics in a way that works well and still respects the source, but he also made sacrifices and compromises and changed a lot of stuff around. Plus, his films lack the visceral energy in action sequences that you find in X3, Wolverine (and also in Star Trek, for that matter). Singer's action is more graceful and choreographed, not raw and realistic.

But overall, he did the best job with the X-Men and the formula they assembled for X2 obviously worked best - story outline by Hayter and Penn, then reworked by Harris and Dougherty to add more soul and character, and directed by Singer.

Agreed.

 

[returntovoid]

The berserker enraged Wolverine killing Stryker's soldiers and Nightcrawler attacking the White House in X2 were better action sequences than the ones in X3 and Wolverine IMO.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The berserker enraged Wolverine killing Stryker's soldiers and Nightcrawler attacking the White House in X2 were better action sequences than the ones in X3 and Wolverine IMO.

Agreed, not to mention Magneto's escape from prison in X2, those are the 3 best action sequences in the series. I actually found the action in X3 terrible, Wolverine in the forest literally made me laugh and cringe, it was better in Wolverine, with the odd exception (Wolverine vs the fire escape anyone?), but still not up to the standard of X2.

 

[Ace of Knaves]

Hmmm I would put the Nightcrawler scene right up there.

But the final fight in this (up to the frickin eye blasts) was epic I thought. The way Weapon XI did that triple somersault over them, then teleported back to a standstill and spanked Creed was just insanely brilliant, visually.

And Wade's scene near the start was unique and awesome.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

He was definitely made to seem uncomfortable with air travel in X1 and X2. And perhaps in Wolverine, he was as much uneasy about what he was about to do than he was about being in the air. I wouldn't think mutant healing factors cancel out feelings of apprehension - about more Team X killing and then about finally facing Stryker and whatever else was waiting for him on that island.

Not really, in X1 he showed no feelings of sickness or uncomfortableness, even with the landing. X2 had a little more but that was during a high speed air chase were the X-Jet was taking evasive manouvre's, no sickness was hinted there though, just uncomfortableness.

[However, it has to be said that air sickness isn't a disease that the immune system would be involved with, it's to do with the nervous system sending mixed-up messages.

Also, we do have to remember that somehow - as i mentioned before - Deathstrike could be mind-controlled (and have a scar on her neck) when her healing power (which we saw) should have healed the scar and counteracted the mind-control serum.

So, it could be concluded that despite having advanced regeneration capabilities, they aren't 100 per cent 'immune' to every single illness or condition.

I know that air-sickness is to do with the nervous system, this is why I never commented on his powers being involved, just that it didnt seem consistant with what we saw in the original trilogy.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Hmmm I would put the Nightcrawler scene right up there.

But the final fight in this (up to the frickin eye blasts) was epic I thought. The way Weapon XI did that triple somersault over them, then teleported back to a standstill and spanked Creed was just insanely brilliant, visually.

And Wade's scene near the start was unique and awesome.

The final fight was okay, but it again it was over too quickly and too choppy/poorly edited, it improved a bit when Sabretooth got involved, but it wasnt even the best action sequence in Wolverine IMO, let alone the franchise.

 

[MrWayne]

Well we would all love a 100% translation from book to screen, of course.

But it just ain't ever gonna happen, especially with reasonably big budget movies. It's just too much risk financially to cater JUST to the minority. Which, we are.

agreed.. and im not saying it has to be 100% translation.. (even though it makes the most sense considering the big budget they have to play with)no, 100% isnt needed, but sumhow DC & Nolan managed to make it work with Batman so it is possible to make it work and satisfy both audiences..

 

[returntovoid]

The only fight scenes I liked were Wolverine's brawl with Sabretooth in the bar and Wade deflecting the bullets with his Katana.

 

[MrWayne]

and let me ask this.. (and im just venting here lol) but they make these comic book movies for what purpose and for who then? i mean its us as fans who make the comics and the charecters popular and iconic no? isnt it us who determine what we like and then it becomes popular? dont they show case these trailers and such at comic cons? if it wasnt for us they wouldnt know that making a movie based on a comic is something that would make money because we would wanna see art translated on to film... so then why do we get pulled out of the equation when its show time? lmao yes maybe sumthings will just not work on film.. but if its never been done how do they know?? i think making a complete 100% translation of X-men/Wolverine with minor tweaks here n there but nothing we would rant about on forums is at least worth a try.. hell they flop doing things they KNOW will work.. why not try something that they THINK wont.. maybe it will, look i know there will be no such thing as 100% translation.. but we are talking about changes that really didnt need to be done.. alot of us on here make sum very valid points where these things are concerned lol ..whew.. this is theraputic.. these movie adaptions are gonna make me need counseling lmao but thanks for listening heheheh...

 

[I Am The Knight]

agreed.. and im not saying it has to be 100% translation.. (even though it makes the most sense considering the big budget they have to play with)no, 100% isnt needed, but sumhow DC & Nolan managed to make it work with Batman so it is possible to make it work and satisfy both audiences..

Nolan changed quite a bit of Bat history too. But his movies are incredible so it's all good. I'm not a comic book canon ****e anyway, so I can deal with changes when they make sense

 

[Kane52630]

Deadpool looks like Baraka at the end

 

[returntovoid]

Nolan changed quite a bit of Bat history too. But his movies are incredible so it's all good. I'm not a comic book canon ****e anyway, so I can deal with changes when they make sense

I didn't mind the minor changes that Nolan made to the source material in BB and TDK.

 

[MrWayne]

Nolan changed quite a bit of Bat history too. But his movies are incredible so it's all good. I'm not a comic book canon ****e anyway, so I can deal with changes when they make sense

exactly.. my point is if you are gonna change quite a bit.. at least make it incredible.. but they F'd up on both parts so its a epic fail imo.. i think they think we are just happy to see a guy with metal claws on screen and then think they can do w/e they want with said charecter and story.. oh well.. theres always Wolverine 2 i guess rite?? lmao

 

[returntovoid]

Deadpool looks like Baraka at the end

That was the most unnecessary change to the source material.

 

[MrWayne]

I didn't mind the minor changes that Nolan made to the source material in BB and TDK.

neither do i cuz it worked and was totally bad ass...

but they should just say "we are making a wolverine movie but this is our version and our take on it so there will be many changes in story and charecter" etc.. at least prepare us so we know.. "well ok, they did say this would be a diff version of wolverine as we know him" maybe we wouldnt be all dissapointed and have more of an open mind to the changes and inconsistancies and wouldnt be on here posting like mad men about it.. lol

 

[MrWayne]

That was the most unnecessary change to the source material.

now what in the world would compell them to make such a drastic change to deadpool?? is there a mortal kombat re-boot their preparing us for???

 

[I Am The Knight]

Well they did sort of correct the Deadpool thing by shooting that last minute ending...LOL...

 

[danoyse]

well.. im glad she enjoyed it... but like you said.. bear in mind that she doesnt know the comics.. nuff said...

He has a point, though. I knew nothing about X-Men before I saw the first film. It was a co-worker at my old job who was a huge X-Men fan, and after we saw the movie he proceeded to give me the biography of every single character from the film, and how told me how totally different it was from the movie (which he loved).

I've read a lot of comics since then (mostly Wolverine), but since I saw the movies first, my main perspective is that the comics are way different than the movies.

Most of my friends who I've seen the X-Men movies with are the same - they don't read comics, and the ones who've seen Wolverine liked it and also thought it tied in with the existing movies well.

Catching up and reading Wolverine comics, the main thing I see is that his backstory is really convoluted - they only gave him an official origin a few years ago, for god's sake - and some of the stories really contradict each other. Origin left as many questions as it did answers.

Now I have read enough of the comics to know they really tossed out a lot of good stuff that could have been in the movie, but still in the context of the movies a lot of what was there tied in well. I watched X2 the night after I saw Wolverine and was surprised how well the stories matched up.

 

[chaseter]

My showbiz/theatre writer Marion (theatre as in the UK definition of stage plays, not cinema) has just been to see Wolverine.

Bear in mind she doesn't know the comics and doesn't come on fan forums debating fine details.

She loved it, she couldn't understand the criticisms I had myself made in the review we ran - and then she said she had watched all three X-movies afterwards (over the weekend) and thought Wolverine fitted in perfectly.

I never drew her attention to any discrepancies but she never noticed variations in the way the procedure is depicted or any of that stuff. It's worth adding that this is possibly how some or many mainstream viewers see these films.

Why did you post this in here

Does this matter and what does it have to do with plot holes?

 

[chaseter]

I think you're being a bit silly here Chaseter. And you're very much an extreme isolated case with these endless dissections.

Most movies would end there and then if characters showcased their extreme options immediately.

Wolverine had a procedure to make him indestructible so he then had to be seen as indestructible and resisting attempts at capture in order to prove what Stryker had unleashed.

The adamantium bullets were a last resort - and clearly the film had to end after they were used because at that point Logan lost his memory.

If he had lost his memory before the procedure, during it, or directly afterwards, he'd have no memory of Stryker, Sabretooth or Kayla and thus wouldn't feel compelled to do what he did for the rest of the film.

So he had to retain his memory after the procedure in order to exact revenge on Stryker, feel upset by Kayla's deception and fight Sabretooth - it was only after the closure of all those events that a memory loss would be feasible.

Similarly, you could ask why Xavier didn't just fully restore Jean's mindblocks early on in X2 as her powers had obviously begun to leak through and shake entire bedrooms around, and this would have neatly cancelled out her entire arc for the rest of the film; or perhaps he should have totally restored them as soon as she was in the lab in X3, thus cancelling out her entire story for the rest of the film. We could also wonder why Storm took so long to lash out against Toad in X1 or why she didn't immediately fly up to the torch to rescue Rogue and end the movie at that point. Perhaps we could have had Yuriko kill Mystique in X2 when she came into her office and found a 'janitor' in there and then Magneto would never have got free and the second Cerebro would never be discovered and Xavier could just wipe everyone out and the movie screen could just go black as the film came to a dramatic close. Yes, that's right, let's end the entire film just like that with no sense of escalation in the plot. Seriously?!

I am being silly yet all you do is post how much you loved it, how much your friends loved it, and now how much Marion loved it. I can post how much I disliked it and I can dissect this movie all I want. I am lenient with plot holes and on screen gaffs if it is a good movie, if it is well written, and if it is well acted.This is not the case.

Once again, I know there are plot holes in the other X-Men films but is this the X2 forum? Is this the X3 plot holes thread?

The adamantium bullets were a sad last resort but at no time did Stryker think to himself...HEY, why don't I erase his memory before I make him invincible and unstoppable!? But, instead he waits until he is alive and fully armed and protected. Stryker is a military genius He also never thought to give his best gunman and his right hand man, Zero, adamantium bullets.

It is called writing. Through the wonderful miracle of writing, anything can happen!

 

[javphonic]

is there a best fight sequence thread for the X-Series???

For me the best was Wolverine & Sabes v. Deapool, the teleporting but kicking part especially-I was like a kid in a candy store


But back to the topic I liked the changes made to Weapon XI, though I'm no comic buff, I think this was a great combination of powers for the ultimate mercenary... I mean he has the best powers an assasin could have... strength, speed, stealth, and ranged & close combat tools

 

[danoyse]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

Then again, it's just as implausible as Magneto raising a visible mutant-transforming machine to the torch of the Statue of Liberty in plain view of every single world leader is attending a summit (on an island, of all places?!) and no one sees it.

 

[MrWayne]

He has a point, though. I knew nothing about X-Men before I saw the first film. It was a co-worker at my old job who was a huge X-Men fan, and after we saw the movie he proceeded to give me the biography of every single character from the film, and how told me how totally different it was from the movie (which he loved).

I've read a lot of comics since then (mostly Wolverine), but since I saw the movies first, my main perspective is that the comics are way different than the movies.

Most of my friends who I've seen the X-Men movies with are the same - they don't read comics, and the ones who've seen Wolverine liked it and also thought it tied in with the existing movies well.

Catching up and reading Wolverine comics, the main thing I see is that his backstory is really convoluted - they only gave him an official origin a few years ago, for god's sake - and some of the stories really contradict each other. Origin left as many questions as it did answers.

Now I have read enough of the comics to know they really tossed out a lot of good stuff that could have been in the movie, but still in the context of the movies a lot of what was there tied in well. I watched X2 the night after I saw Wolverine and was surprised how well the stories matched up.

Agreed.. i just think ppl who are more familiar with source material and are a fan of it tend to gripe (like me!!) about the changes that are made.. but as a movie experience im sure its enjoyable to a non fan of the x verse..
i did the same and X2 is really good!! might watch again tnite!!

 

[chaseter]

I didn't mind the magic bullet thing - but I thought the execution of it was poor. First of all, why not just give them to Zero in case anything went wrong during the procedure, or afterwards when he was tracking him down? It would have worked better if they had somehow created them after Logan escaped, rather than it look like they'd been sitting in some fancy case the whole time.

I also think they could have left out the dialogue explaining that the bullet would erase his memory. The whole thing is already anti-climatic because you know the bullet won't kill him, and that he will eventually lose his memory...why not just have the bullets be created during that final sequence and have Stryker just shoot him thinking he might have a chance at killing him. He'll just heal and wake up with his memory wiped out, and would at least it leave a little suspense as to what an adamantium bullet could do to him.

I thought the scene itself looked great, but the execution was a mess.

Then again, it's just as implausible as Magneto raising a visible mutant-transforming machine to the torch of the Statue of Liberty in plain view of every single world leader is attending a summit (on an island, of all places?!) and no one sees it.

Gotta agree with Danoyse. It was very anti climactic and it was a mess. It just seemed rushed. The magic bullet is a little cliche though ie werewolves and silver bullets. Like I said, it seemed to me like they had a great story lined up and some higherup said cut it down to 90 minutes.

It makes me wonder why they explain the magic bullet when as you said, all they had to do was shoot him and then show that he lost his memory, but they chose to forego more important explanations of characters.

 

[CelticPredator]

Well...then people would say "Hey...isnt Adamantium unbreakable!?????"