Superman Returns POTC2 writer & SR VFX guy explain MAJOR issues with SR writing and editing

[NateGray]

He is not insulting you. And about the box office. That's stupid. People are stupid. They will go watch things like Pirates 2 because it's non stop action and is targeted to the ''kiddies'' - Superman was not. It was a more serious, and very nostalgic film. People think Superman should be an all action film, they didn't get that, so they either did not watch it again or ditched it completely. Movies like Pirates 2 will always get more money.

Great or good movies fail at the BO all the time. Things like STAR WARS EPISODE I - THE PHANTOM MENACE - A HORRIBLE FILM - make gazillions of money. It's just the way it is.

Umm whatever this is an insult and veiling it does not change it from being one.

Quote
It's a joke but people like you lap it up thinking they know the finances of Warner Brothers just because they have a modem.

I default to your opinion says Star wars PM sucked I thought it was a decent movie not great but decent and I know many who loved it for varying reasons and the fact it made millions and millions say's volumes that more people liked it than didn't.
Again this is simple math here its simply about the numbers of people who see a movie if alot of people see a movie it is the general idea its a good movie or well liked for varying reasons.
I understand some good movies do not do well and ones I have thought great did not do well at the BO and guess what I chalk that up to me liking b rate or weird movies sometimes but I also understand that just because I liked it doesn't make it a great movie if the general audience doesn't like it that much.

 

[C. Lee]

Don't you love the film industry?

It's never boring.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Umm whatever this is an insult and veiling it does not change it from being one.

Quote
It's a joke but people like you lap it up thinking they know the finances of Warner Brothers just because they have a modem.

I default to your opinion says Star wars PM sucked I thought it was a decent movie not great but decent and I know many who loved it for varying reasons and the fact it made millions and millions say's volumes that more people liked it than didn't.
Again this is simple math here its simply about the numbers of people who see a movie if alot of people see a movie it is the general idea its a good movie or well liked for varying reasons.
I understand some good movies do not do well and ones I have thought great did not do well at the BO and guess what I chalk that up to me liking b rate or weird movies sometimes but I also understand that just because I liked it doesn't make it a great movie if the general audience doesn't like it that much.

I don't see how that was a real insult, but whatever.

The general audience loves mindless fun, and films that allow them to get their brat kids off their backs for 2 hours. If the kiddies had fun with Pirates 2 they'll ask their parents to take them again and again. And how was THE PHANTOM MENACE a decent film? I'm not talking about the original Star Wars, I'm talking about the one with FRICKIN' JAR JAR!! t: it was horrible.

Again, the GA is not that educated when it comes to good movies. If they are not seeing something blow up every 2 seconds they will not have much interest in it.

 

[NateGray]

I don't see how that was a real insult, but whatever.

The general audience loves mindless fun, and films that allow them to get their brat kids off their backs for 2 hours. If the kiddies had fun with Pirates 2 they'll ask their parents to take them again and again. And how was THE PHANTOM MENACE a decent film? I'm not talking about the original Star Wars, I'm talking about the one with FRICKIN' JAR JAR!! t: it was horrible.

Again, the GA is not that educated when it comes to good movies. If they are not seeing something blow up every 2 seconds they will not have much interest in it.

Again this is just your opinion I think higher of the general movie going public and while people do stupid things they do not usually do stupid things where money is involved especially with ticket prices today.

Phamtom menace had other parts that were quite enjoyable that Jar Jar had nothing to do with like SR had many groan parts just like PM did yet you love it right even with its bad parts.
Well its the same deal for PM people can overlook Jar Jar to see real Jedi because when I saw PM the first thing I thought was we were robbed with Luke because he is a half ass Jedi compared to Obi even as a padwan.
The fight scenes wow just wow so yeh it had plenty of good parts that for me outweighted the bad more than enough for me to like it.
Sr it was boderline but it had just enough stuff in it that I enjoyed it even with parts in it that bothered me like the hospital Kryptonite scene or the dog eat dog etc etc.

 

[I Am The Knight]

Again this is just your opinion I think higher of the general movie going public and while people do stupid things they do not usually do stupid things where money is involved especially with ticket prices today.

Phamtom menace had other parts that were quite enjoyable that Jar Jar had nothing to do with like SR had many groan parts just like PM did yet you love it right even with its bad parts.
Well its the same deal for PM people can overlook Jar Jar to see real Jedi because when I saw PM the first thing I thought was we were robbed with Luke because he is a half ass Jedi compared to Obi even as a padwan.
The fight scenes wow just wow so yeh it had plenty of good parts that for me outweighted the bad more than enough for me to like it.
Sr it was boderline but it had just enough stuff in it that I enjoyed it even with parts in it that bothered me like the hospital Kryptonite scene or the dog eat dog etc etc.

They still will pay to see summer fanfare that requires them not to think, but they completely ditch great movies. That tells me they are not too bright. I mean I'm not saying I'm a genious who only sees great movies, I've seen a lot of crap because it looked ''kewl'' but therein lies the problem. We watch crap and forget there are great movies out there that actually have scripts. I'm not talking about SR, I'm talking about the whole industry.

PM has good action, yeah I'll give you that, but it's not a film I'd really want to watch again, or get the DVD. After you've seen the cool action sequences, there's not much that makes you want to watch these movies again for me. The Matrix sequels had the same effect on me.

Well, feel free to respond, I'll check this out later, I have to go pal....Let's agree to disagree here for the time being.

 

[nogster]

all 3 starwars prequels sucked IMO.
i only enjoyed them once, the 1st time i saw them in the cinema. wowed by the special effects extravaganza and the fact thats its "star wars". but on reflection they are terrible, poorly executed story, with too much camp and cheese and horrible acting direction.
there was some great actors in those films and they were all awful in them.
they wouldve been rated as terrible movies if it wasnt "starwars" but how can u resist seeing how arguably the most iconic pop culture villain ever came to be......even if the resulting films were inferior.

 

[buggs0268]

all 3 starwars prequels sucked IMO.
i only enjoyed them once, the 1st time i saw them in the cinema. wowed by the special effects extravaganza and the fact thats its "star wars". but on reflection they are terrible, poorly executed story, with too much camp and cheese and horrible acting direction.
there was some great actors in those films and they were all awful in them.
they wouldve been rated as terrible movies if it wasnt "starwars" but how can u resist seeing how arguably the most iconic pop culture villain ever came to be......even if the resulting films were inferior.

The biggest thing with the prequels that upset people, behind Jar Jar, was the fact that here is a guy who told us he had a plan for these things. And He had actually given history throughout the films that happen later in the series, but filmed before. Then he doesn't even dop things stated in his own films. Obie Wan says that he found Anakin, and he was already a pilot, very strong with the force. Not doing some pod racing, but a pilot. And the way he says it is that Anakin is older, and that they are more around the same age. He also says that Anakin got excited about what Obie Wan was doing, and he wanted to leave home and go off and fight this universal wars. And it is Anakin's brother that argues with Obie Wan and Anakin, and he doesnt want Anakin to run off on some "damn fool idealistic crusade". Well none of this happens. Some older guy finds Anakin, who is a kid, and a slave, not a pilot. Yeah he piloted a pod racer, but more as a slave for a master, and not a pilot flying ships. Obie Wan thinks the kid is a bad idea and wants nothing to do with him. And nowhere does Anakins brother argue with him or Obie Wan about staying home and not running off on some damn fool Idealistic crusade. It is even intimated that Anakin and his brother have known each other before Obie Wan, it seems grew up together, and they just meet and are around each other for a day or two and that is it. So Lucas violated the story that he himself laid out. Stuff that is said had happened doesn't.

And as far as why Anaking became Vader. People said you will either buy it or not. I didn't buy it. Lucas decided he needed to keep him a hero because of his eventual redemption, but the way he becomes Vader was rather lame as to the buildup of what it was laid out was supposed to have be. He just became an instant Biatch from one side to the other. It wasn't the "I am more powerful than you guys and you are holding me back" and the jealousy makes him start agreeing with the Emproer. It was a let down.

I for one don't think Lucas had a plan. I think he had some ideas based on what was said in the other movies that he now had to do, and he just got carried away with what he could do with digital technology. I think he got it half right with Revenge of the Sith, but I honestly think that he should have had Spielberg or Kirshner direct it.

 

[matrix_ghost]

So you have this "proof" that it needs at least 500 million from where? Are you an accountant at WB or are you just relying on what you read on the internet or magazines. Why is a good film for YOU determined by the money it makes? So if by this logic you watch a film and absolutely love it and it bombs you will change your mind? I keep on reading about the budget too, it keeps on changing so dramatically also. It's in US dollars, oh no that's Australian dollars, oh but that doesn't include the marketing and so on. It's a joke but people like you lap it up thinking they know the finances of Warner Brothers just because they have a modem.

Considering that the movie's budget is more or less "confirmed" to be at 250 million , i think the 500 million mark is something that needed to be reached.
Basically a movie can break even if you count up all the costs ( advertising + budget) and double that figure. That number should be reached with the worldwide gross.
Half of the worldwide gross goes to theaters so the other half is "the real gross " of the movie.
And i'll take the number of BO MOJO for SR :
Budget 270 million
Marketing ( not reported)
That would mean that SR would , in order to break even , would have to make 540 million worldwide.
It's now at 386. Meaning it's not making aprofit and in fact a loss.
I dunno to what extent the costs of the abadoned Superman projects were included in Return's budget.
Maybe WB is excluding the costs of the failed superman projects , just so they can make some profit. Which would explain why WB and Legendary are hoping for a 400 million WW gross.
Either they're trying to break even ( which would then mean that the real budget of SR is 200 milion) or they're going for a profit ( meaning that the budget is lower then 200 million).

 

[Simon]

Considering that the movie's budget is more or less "confirmed" to be at 250 million

Confirmed by whom, "internet sources", cause God knows they're so reliable. The only time I've read about the budget from anyone in a real position at Warners is when Singer said he brought the film in at 180 million and if you really want to go into how much the film actually costs them you have no idea about things like tax breaks and so on they get, especially if they film in Australia. I've read reports how it's impossible that a movie, especially a hollywood blockbuster, won't make it's money back and that the real money is in DVD sales and film companies see the cinema release as nothing more than a extended ad. I'm happy I just got a Superman movie than was about something more than fight scenes and explosions. It's funny, Batman Begins
also made less than the other Batman films would you rather it go back to those "brilliant" neon coloured roots?

 

[Lucidious]

I'm happy I just got a Superman movie than was about something more than fight scenes and explosions. It's funny, Batman Begins
also made less than the other Batman films would you rather it go back to those "brilliant" neon coloured roots?

I don't think the depth SR tried to achieve was as well done as what they did with Batman Begins. The alternatives in SR to just 'fight scenes and explosions' were not as compelling as what BB gave us. BB was balanced, structured and focused. SR was all over the place. BB had strong ideas and themes while SR was more a soap opera. Ultimately, SR still felt pretty light, which is why it felt like the entertainment factor was sacrificed for very little else.

BB also beat SR in the basic fight scenes and explosions part as well IMO.

 

[The Kid]

I never was the huge BB fan. I saw it and liked the acting a lot but felt the story and script was pretty average with an overdone fear theme. However now that supes is out, I'm thankful it was what it was, a nice fresh re-start and now things can really get going with the sequels.

I don't really care where superman's going now... *shrug* Custody battle? I really don't know. And Lex and his kitty girl can stay on that island drinking rum all I care... They were lame.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

He is not insulting you. And about the box office. That's stupid. People are stupid. They will go watch things like Pirates 2 because it's non stop action and is targeted to the ''kiddies'' - Superman was not. It was a more serious, and very nostalgic film. People think Superman should be an all action film, they didn't get that, so they either did not watch it again or ditched it completely. Movies like Pirates 2 will always get more money.

Great or good movies fail at the BO all the time. Things like STAR WARS EPISODE I - THE PHANTOM MENACE - A HORRIBLE FILM - make gazillions of money. It's just the way it is.

Exactly, if box office was an indicator of quality, The Shawshank Redemption, Braveheart, The Thing and Blade Runner would all be poor movies.

 

[The Kid]

The funny thing is star wars episode one was in the same position as returns and relied heavily on nostalgia as well. Why did it make the big bucks and superman returns not? Are people wiser now? Did superman need a kickass lightsaber duel?

 

[Lucidious]

I never was the huge BB fan. I saw it and liked the acting a lot but felt the story and script was pretty average with an overdone fear theme. However now that supes is out, I'm thankful it was what it was, a nice fresh re-start and now things can really get going with the sequels.

I don't really care where superman's going now... *shrug* Custody battle? I really don't know. And Lex and his kitty girl can stay on that island drinking rum all I care... They were lame.

I've always been more of a Superman fan than a Batman fan. It took a while for me to see BB but then I enjoyed it a lot. I agree, looking back there was something uncomplicated about what it did as a re-start.

Superman is more of a big deal to me than POTC as well but here we are with BB and POTC2 getting a general consensus of "successful" while Superman Returns is even getting criticised by its own crew and by writers of the other franchises! (Maybe that's because Superman means something to them too).

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

The funny thing is star wars episode one was in the same position as returns and relied heavily on nostalgia as well. Why did it make the big bucks and superman returns not? Are people wiser now? Did superman need a kickass lightsaber duel?

Well, Star Wars has a far bigger fan base than Superman will ever have. I know plenty of people who still the watch the original trilogy regularly, but havent seen a Superman movie for years.

 

[Lucidious]

The funny thing is star wars episode one was in the same position as returns and relied heavily on nostalgia as well. Why did it make the big bucks and superman returns not? Are people wiser now? Did superman need a kickass lightsaber duel?

SW Episode 1 still had big set pieces to offset anything people found tedious. SR action set pieces weren't on the same scale, I don't think.

Plus TPM had a new(er) plotline and I agree that the SW legacy is much bigger than Superman's in terms of the movies.

 

[The Kid]

Well, Star Wars has a far bigger fan base than Superman will ever have. I know plenty of people who still the watch the original trilogy regularly, but havent seen a Superman movie for years.

They don't watch smallville, the cartoons even?

fans alone don't really make a movie that kind of money of course, but even considiering fans I'd say supes is popular enough to warrent more return after all these long years from the theaters.

 

[The Kid]

SW Episode 1 still had big set pieces to offset anything people found tedious. SR action set pieces weren't on the same scale, I don't think.

Plus TPM had a new(er) plotline and I agree that the SW legacy is much bigger than Superman's in terms of the movies.

The movie isn't complete crap, really, yeah. It fails as a star wars film, but on purely a film level it's got great music, great visuals, great acting from like maybe one of the actors, and of course the exciting duels and racing and stuff, so of course all that was probably enough to keep people interested, yeah.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

They don't watch smallville, the cartoons even?

fans alone don't really make a movie that kind of money of course, but even considiering fans I'd say supes is popular enough to warrent more return after all these long years from the theaters.

No, no movies or characters save maybe LOTR has a fanbase on the level of Star Wars, no one.

 

[The Kid]

star trek?

I'll go all wrath of khan... maybe he should have said he'll go all Empire strikes back.

Harry Potter's pretty darn popular too nowadays. I can't wait to see if he dies in the end. I want him to die... it'd be more tragic.

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^I think the Harry Potter movies are boring.

 

[The Kid]

Everyone gets bored sometimes.

 

[mathhater]

No, no movies or characters save maybe LOTR has a fanbase on the level of Star Wars, no one.

I'm sure this statement won't go over well (but here goes,) but even though I like Star Wars just fine, I think those movies are highly over-rated. I think they're fine movies, I just don't really get why they're THAT popular...(but then, I'm not much a sci-fi person...or maybe I have more of a comic-nerdy-developed part of the brain?)

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

^Well i understand what you saying, but i still love them, also the fact remains, that SW probably has a bigger fan base than anything else in movies.

 

[mathhater]

^ Very true. SW is bigger than anything. Which is what I don't get. (I love 'em too...just not as much as everyone else on the planet I suppose...)