Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Rodrigo90]

I'm watching it for a fifth time now...

I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here.

Here's what I like about it, that others actually have issue with. I like the whole Jesus metaphor the film has going on.
And it's actually what is helping me like the film a little more. I'm beginning to understand what Snyder, Goyer and Nolan were going for.

Cavill is Jesus
Crowe is God
Costner is Joseph
Lane is Mary

And that's how I'm looking at these characters and their behaviours.

Hell, I think I'm beginning to understand why Jonathan is the way he is. He's putting Clark out of harms way, not just because he loves him, but to keep safe the miracle that he made its way into his life. And with that, Jonathan became a changed man, as he states to Clark, as that what the rest of the world will go through when he's discovered...Clark's arrival changed Jonathan, both psychologically and spirituality.
Him telling Clark that he must wait until the world was ready for him, was about the world coming to the point of needing him...and he must then decide if that's the life he wants to lead.
He was being a father to a boy, and being a guardian to a miracle.

 

[Human Torch]

Are you trying self-brainwashing to try and like this film,Roddy?t:

 

[Rodrigo90]

Are you trying self-brainwashing to try and like this film,Roddy?t:

I'm looking for anything to brainwash myself into liking it

And I think it's working to an extent

 

[Joeyjojo72]

Actually, for critics specifically, RT is about as comprehensive as it gets. Metacritic is much more restrictive, but the 55 score is pretty similar. But I am NOT conflating critics scores and GA reactions - apples and oranges - so Im not sure what your point is.

 

[Marvin]

Actually, for critics specifically, RT is about as comprehensive as it gets. Metacritic is much more restrictive, but the 55 score is pretty similar. But I am NOT conflating critics scores and GA reactions - apples and oranges - so Im not sure what your point is.

A tiny poll is a tiny poll is my point.
It's not tiny in one instance, then not in another.

 

[Marvin]

I'm watching it for a fifth time now...

I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here.

Here's what I like about it, that others actually have issue with. I like the whole Jesus metaphor the film has going on.
And it's actually what is helping me like the film a little more. I'm beginning to understand what Snyder, Goyer and Nolan were going for.

Cavill is Jesus
Crowe is God
Costner is Joseph
Lane is Mary

And that's how I'm looking at these characters and their behaviours.

Hell, I think I'm beginning to understand why Jonathan is the way he is. He's putting Clark out of harms way, not just because he loves him, but to keep safe the miracle that he made its way into his life. And with that, Jonathan became a changed man, as he states to Clark, as that what the rest of the world will go through when he's discovered...Clark's arrival changed Jonathan, both psychologically and spirituality.
Him telling Clark that he must wait until the world was ready for him, was about the world coming to the point of needing him...and he must then decide if that's the life he wants to lead.
He was being a father to a boy, and being a guardian to a miracle.

...finally.
A manner in which Jon's motivation, thematic or otherwise can be appreciated.
If only Jon had only ever been presented this way, I have a feeling there would be far less trouble...

 

[Joeyjojo72]

...finally.
A manner in which Jon's motivation, thematic or otherwise can be appreciated.
If only Jon had only ever been presented this way, I have a feeling there would be far less trouble...

No offense but you are out there man. Cheers

 

[Marvin]

No offense but you are out there man. Cheers

None taken.

 

[ThePhantasm]

Jon also sacrifices his life to save a creature less significant than himself. Zod comes along and treats the people of earth as lesser beings, and invites Kal to join in. But instead Kal decides to risk his life to save them. Him overcoming the whirling beam of the World Engine is reminiscent of Jon rushing toward that tornado.

 

[Rekall101]

I'm watching it for a fifth time now...

I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here.

Here's what I like about it, that others actually have issue with. I like the whole Jesus metaphor the film has going on.
And it's actually what is helping me like the film a little more. I'm beginning to understand what Snyder, Goyer and Nolan were going for.

Cavill is Jesus
Crowe is God
Costner is Joseph
Lane is Mary

And that's how I'm looking at these characters and their behaviours.

Hell, I think I'm beginning to understand why Jonathan is the way he is. He's putting Clark out of harms way, not just because he loves him, but to keep safe the miracle that he made its way into his life. And with that, Jonathan became a changed man, as he states to Clark, as that what the rest of the world will go through when he's discovered...Clark's arrival changed Jonathan, both psychologically and spirituality.
Him telling Clark that he must wait until the world was ready for him, was about the world coming to the point of needing him...and he must then decide if that's the life he wants to lead.
He was being a father to a boy, and being a guardian to a miracle.

But for me that's the big problem!

Doing the film that way suggests that his upbring is irrelevant. The reason he becomes a hero is because he's Jor-El's son, it was always his destiny. He is a kryptonian and therefore just better than mere humans.

I feel the power of a Superman story is in the fact that, yes his lineage his genetics give him great powers but the reason he uses those powers to be hero is BECAUSE he was raised human, by good people. Doing it as Jesus metaphor undercuts that, it takes away his humanity.

 

[Rodrigo90]

...finally.
A manner in which Jon's motivation, thematic or otherwise can be appreciated.
If only Jon had only ever been presented this way, I have a feeling there would be far less trouble...

Yeah, I agree. I went back a few times and listened to his dialogue with Clark, and that's where it clicked to me. I criticised it before, in my ignorance. But, you do have to understand where the man is coming from in his words. He's a father to Clark, and assuming the responsibility of being his protector. Both Jonathan and Martha's fear was that Clark would be taken away, and that's any parents fear for their child, who they love dearly.

But what Jonathan recognised, while still being the parent and wanting Clark to forge his own life, is that he had to keep Clark as safe and as grounded as possible, so that one day, this miracle will go on and change the world. Jonathan didn't know how, when or where it would happen, he didn't know in what capacity, all he knew and what he hoped, just as Jor-El had hoped, was that Clark would go and change something within society - to make them more understanding and better people.

And that's what God and Joseph's mission was for Jesus. Jesus was programmed with God's teachings from childhood, so it was up to Joseph to protect him until the time was right.
Jonathan really was a struggling parent who didn't know all the answers to the hard questions and how to protect Clark. I wouldn't like to be in that position where I'm trying to protect my child and then telling him that maybe he should have let other children die to save himself. Jonathan wasn't dressing anything up and to be less than honest with Clark in that scene, that would have made him less a good of parent.

Yes, it may have made the man seem cold, but what would any of us do in that situation?

And his death...While still a bit peculiar to look at, it fits with what the metaphor goes for. Jonathan sacrificing himself, that was noble and heroic.
A father dying to protect his son, so that one day, that son, that miracle, that he saw, would go on to save the world when it was ready for him...when it was ready to be saved.
If he were to scream for help and be human about it, it would have taken away the whole reason and point of his sacrifice. So he took all the strength that he had, to allow himself to remain silent and accept his death.

 

[Rodrigo90]

But for me that's the big problem!

Doing the film that way suggests that his upbring is irrelevant. The reason he becomes a hero is because he's Jor-El's son, it was always his destiny. He is a kryptonian and therefore just better than mere humans.

I feel the power of a Superman story is in the fact that, yes his lineage his genetics give him great powers but the reason he uses those powers to be hero is BECAUSE he was raised human, by good people. Doing it as Jesus metaphor undercuts that, it takes away his humanity.

Have a look at my new post, I think I explain some of that

 

[Marvin]

But for me that's the big problem!

Doing the film that way suggests that his upbring is irrelevant. The reason he becomes a hero is because he's Jor-El's son, it was always his destiny. He is a kryptonian and therefore just better than mere humans.

I feel the power of a Superman story is in the fact that, yes his lineage his genetics give him great powers but the reason he uses those powers to be hero is BECAUSE he was raised human, by good people. Doing it as Jesus metaphor undercuts that, it takes away his humanity.

The real problem is all of that is still there. Depending on who raised him you would have ended up with a pete ross like bully or worse. Funny enough, you even see plenty of moralistic guidance from Costner in the film. Both in his advice, love and action.
Surely it doesn't need to be so obvious as him saying 'go out and use your super powers for good right now' before you can see that clark's a hero because of the house hold he grew up in.

Unless you are about to suggest that he was raised by bad people?

 

[Tempest]

Yeah, I agree. I went back a few times and listened to his dialogue with Clark, and that's where it clicked to me. I criticised it before, in my ignorance. But, you do have to understand where the man is coming from in his words. He's a father to Clark, and assuming the responsibility of being his protector. Both Jonathan and Martha's fear was that Clark would be taken away, and that's any parents fear for their child, who they love dearly.

But what Jonathan recognised, while still being the parent and wanting Clark to forge his own life, is that he had to keep Clark as safe and as grounded as possible, so that one day, this miracle will go on and change the world. Jonathan didn't know how, when or where it would happen, he didn't know in what capacity, all he knew and what he hoped, just as Jor-El had hoped, was that Clark would go and change something within society - to make them more understanding and better people.

And that's what God and Joseph's mission was for Jesus. Jesus was programmed with God's teachings from childhood, so it was up to Joseph to protect him until the time was right.
Jonathan really was a struggling parent who didn't know all the answers to the hard questions and how to protect Clark. I wouldn't like to be in that position where I'm trying to protect my child and then telling him that maybe he should have let other children die to save himself. Jonathan wasn't dressing anything up and to be less than honest with Clark in that scene, that would have made him less a good of parent.

Yes, it may have made the man seem cold, but what would any of us do in that situation?

And his death...While still a bit peculiar to look at, it fits with what the metaphor goes for. Jonathan sacrificing himself, that was noble and heroic.
A father dying to protect his son, so that one day, that son, that miracle, that he saw, would go on to save the world when it was ready for him...when it was ready to be saved.
If he were to scream for help and be human about it, it would have taken away the whole reason and point of his sacrifice. So he took all the strength that he had, to allow himself to remain silent and accept his death.

Wooo, look at you.

 

[Rodrigo90]

My God...I AM actually starting to appreciate the film on whole new level now, and I feel guilty for ripping into it

I'm sitting here, and I'm watching it and I'm thinking, it's beautifully shot, the music is moving, and I'm starting to be less critical of the performaces and the writing, because I'm actually FINALLY UNDERSTANDING the entire thing.
It's trying to inform us, all in one go, of what Superman is, what the people around him stand for. Then it's trying to be an action movie, no doubt trying to make up for SR.
And I have to give credit to Snyder and co, because that really couldn't of been an easy thing to do.

Yes, I'm actually to starting to really like this film.

And my main praise has to go to Cavill. Give him more to do and say in the sequel, and the guy will accomplish wonders

 

[Marvin]

Yeah, I agree. I went back a few times and listened to his dialogue with Clark, and that's where it clicked to me. I criticised it before, in my ignorance. But, you do have to understand where the man is coming from in his words. He's a father to Clark, and assuming the responsibility of being his protector. Both Jonathan and Martha's fear was that Clark would be taken away, and that's any parents fear for their child, who they love dearly.

But what Jonathan recognised, while still being the parent and wanting Clark to forge his own life, is that he had to keep Clark as safe and as grounded as possible, so that one day, this miracle will go on and change the world. Jonathan didn't know how, when or where it would happen, he didn't know in what capacity, all he knew and what he hoped, just as Jor-El had hoped, was that Clark would go and change something within society - to make them more understanding and better people.

And that's what God and Joseph's mission was for Jesus. Jesus was programmed with God's teachings from childhood, so it was up to Joseph to protect him until the time was right.
Jonathan really was a struggling parent who didn't know all the answers to the hard questions and how to protect Clark. I wouldn't like to be in that position where I'm trying to protect my child and then telling him that maybe he should have let other children die to save himself. Jonathan wasn't dressing anything up and to be less than honest with Clark in that scene, that would have made him less a good of parent.

Yes, it may have made the man seem cold, but what would any of us do in that situation?

And his death...While still a bit peculiar to look at, it fits with what the metaphor goes for. Jonathan sacrificing himself, that was noble and heroic.
A father dying to protect his son, so that one day, that son, that miracle, that he saw, would go on to save the world when it was ready for him...when it was ready to be saved.
If he were to scream for help and be human about it, it would have taken away the whole reason and point of his sacrifice. So he took all the strength that he had, to allow himself to remain silent and accept his death.

As I keep saying, it's mostly there in the first teaser(jon) and tv spot 11.

I would add however, that it's partly about the world being ready(Zod helps with that) but it's also about clark being ready. Making the whole first appearance to the world kinda takes a man with a sense of self and the G-men showing up at the kent farm with a 14 year old fragile prepubescent...he wouldn't be talking to the military the way he does at the end of MOS that's for sure.

 

[Tempest]

My God...I AM actually starting to appreciate the film on whole new level now, and I feel guilty for ripping into it

I'm sitting here, and I'm watching it and I'm thinking, it's beautifully shot, the music is moving, and I'm starting to be less critical of the performaces and the writing, because I'm actually FINALLY UNDERSTANDING the entire thing.
It's trying to inform us, all in one go, of what Superman is, what the people around him stand for. Then it's trying to be an action movie, no doubt trying to make up for SR.
And I have to give credit to Snyder and co, because that really couldn't of been an easy thing to do.

Yes, I'm actually to starting to really like this film.

And my main praise has to go to Cavill. Give him more to do and say in the sequel, and the guy will accomplish wonders

I'm so proud of you. I knew you'd eventually us. Mwahahahahahahaha. I mean, here, have a cookie.

 

[Rekall101]

The real problem is all of that is still there. Depending on who raised him you would have ended up with a pete ross like bully or worse. Funny enough, you even see plenty of moralistic guidance from Costner in the film. Both in his advice, love and action.
Surely it doesn't need to be so obvious as him saying 'go out and use your super powers for good right now' before you can see that clark's a hero because of the house hold he grew up in.

Unless you are about to suggest that he was raised by bad people?

But there in lies my point, I feel like the film is saying that it doesn't matter that Jonathan is good man (which I'm happy to say he is) who raised him the 'right' way. All that matters is that he's Jor-El's son. Even if he had been raised by bad people he still would ended up as a hero because that's what he was destined to be.

I'm not saying that's what's intended but that's how it comes across to me.

 

[hopefuldreamer]

I'm over it. I'm mostly indifferent towards the film now. I usually try to pretend it doesn't exist, but it's a little hard when you're somewhat anticipating the sequel.

Yeah well that's the trouble... it's all we've got.

My anticipation was high, my dissapointment was devestating. Will that stop me peeing my pants the closer we get to the release of another movie with Superman in it? God no... nothing could. I'd have been first in line to see Superman Lives

I keep an open mind. In fact I actually wonder if i'll be able to appreciate the next film more because I will have NO preconceptions and no expectations. I'm not really following the news surrounding it like I did MOS, so I feel like i'm more detached... which is a good thing.

Having so many ideas of what MOS was going to be is probably the biggest reason it hit me so hard.

I mean, I sometimes re watch the trailer and I can still FEEL what I thought the movie was going to be in terms of quality. It's a dangerous place to come in from unless the movie truly delivers.

I'm watching it for a fifth time now...

I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here.

Here's what I like about it, that others actually have issue with. I like the whole Jesus metaphor the film has going on.
And it's actually what is helping me like the film a little more. I'm beginning to understand what Snyder, Goyer and Nolan were going for.

Cavill is Jesus
Crowe is God
Costner is Joseph
Lane is Mary

And that's how I'm looking at these characters and their behaviours.

Hell, I think I'm beginning to understand why Jonathan is the way he is. He's putting Clark out of harms way, not just because he loves him, but to keep safe the miracle that he made its way into his life. And with that, Jonathan became a changed man, as he states to Clark, as that what the rest of the world will go through when he's discovered...Clark's arrival changed Jonathan, both psychologically and spirituality.
Him telling Clark that he must wait until the world was ready for him, was about the world coming to the point of needing him...and he must then decide if that's the life he wants to lead.
He was being a father to a boy, and being a guardian to a miracle.

That's actually one of the things I dislike about it. I hate it when Superman is made into a christian allegory. It is not how he began and now how he was intended to be interpreted. It is something that has been put upon him because of the intentions of certain film makers/writers. And I really wish they'd stop flogging that horse.

I'm looking for anything to brainwash myself into liking it

And I think it's working to an extent

Congratulations.

I tried. A lot.

I find that the times within the movie that I actually like it are the times when no one is speaking... but I enjoy the score too much to mute it.

The minute anyone opens their mouths, it fails for me.

 

[Tempest]

But there in lies my point, I feel like the film is saying that it doesn't matter that Jonathan is good man (which I'm happy to say he is) who raised him the 'right' way. All that matters is that he's Jor-El's son. Even if he had been raised by bad people he still would ended up as a hero because that's what he was destined to be.

I'm not saying that's what's intended but that's how it comes across to me.

But in the whole movie, Clark is shown and presented with choices that require him to decide what kind of person he'd be.

 

[Rekall101]

But in the whole movie, Clark is shown and presented with choices that require him to decide what kind of person he'd be.

Yes and he chooses to be good (mostly, smashing up trucks aside) but why does he make the choice he does? Because of the nurturing he received from Jonathan or because of his nature as Jor-El's son?

I feel like it's the latter...

 

[Tempest]

Yes and he chooses to be good (mostly, smashing up trucks aside) but why does he make the choice he does? Because of the nurturing he received from Jonathan or because of his nature as Jor-El's son?

I feel like it's the latter...

Jonathan tells him that the choice is his...although Jonathan does his best to guide Clark in a moral direction. But the end result is that it is Jonathan's influence that helps him decide what he needs to do.

 

[Rekall101]

Jonathan tells him that the choice is his...although Jonathan does his best to guide Clark in a moral direction. But the end result is that it is Jonathan's influence that helps him decide what he needs to do.

Yes, Jonathan tells him it's his choice! Whether he becomes the ruler of earth or it's protector. He's done his job by making sure Clark is safe until the time comes for him to make that decision. And then Jor-El shows up and tells him he should help people and boom Clark becomes a hero. He's a hero because of Jor-El not Jonathan. If Clark hadn't found the kryptonian ship then what's to say he wouldn't have just carried on bumming around earth maybe helping people if he happened to be there, but never becoming the great symbol and hero he did.

Do you see what i mean? It takes away Superman's humanity and therefore I find it much harder to identify with the character.

 

[Tempest]

Yes, Jonathan tells him it's his choice! Whether he becomes the ruler of earth or it's protector. He's done his job by making sure Clark is safe until the time comes for him to make that decision. And then Jor-El shows up and tells him he should help people and boom Clark becomes a hero. He's a hero because of Jor-El not Jonathan. If Clark hadn't found the kryptonian ship then what's to say he wouldn't have just carried on bumming around earth maybe helping people if he happened to be there, but never becoming the great symbol and hero he did.

Do you see what i mean? It takes away Superman's humanity and therefore I find it much harder to identify with the character.

No, Jor-El encourages him to really push the limits of his gifts. Clark had already denied Zod's vision of the destruction of Earth. Jor-El was encouraging him, the same as Jonathan did, to do the right thing. Ultimately, the choice is still Clark's.

 

[The Batman]

Moral of Rodrigo's story: Say nice things about MOS, and people will start to like you.