Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[The Question]

I'm watching it for a fifth time now...

I'm seriously trying to keep an open mind here.

Here's what I like about it, that others actually have issue with. I like the whole Jesus metaphor the film has going on.
And it's actually what is helping me like the film a little more. I'm beginning to understand what Snyder, Goyer and Nolan were going for.

Cavill is Jesus
Crowe is God
Costner is Joseph
Lane is Mary

And that's how I'm looking at these characters and their behaviours.

Hell, I think I'm beginning to understand why Jonathan is the way he is. He's putting Clark out of harms way, not just because he loves him, but to keep safe the miracle that he made its way into his life. And with that, Jonathan became a changed man, as he states to Clark, as that what the rest of the world will go through when he's discovered...Clark's arrival changed Jonathan, both psychologically and spirituality.
Him telling Clark that he must wait until the world was ready for him, was about the world coming to the point of needing him...and he must then decide if that's the life he wants to lead.
He was being a father to a boy, and being a guardian to a miracle.

How much of that is what is actually in the movie, and how much of that is what you are trying to read into the movie?

 

[Boy Scout]

Rodrigo, I'm happy you've found something to like.

For me, though, it's business as usual. For better or worse, MOS is the same movie it's always been.

I do feel compelled to say that if you have to watch such a straightforward movie over five times to finally figure out what it was trying to communicate, the filmmakers probably did a pretty terrible job of communicating it.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Moral of Rodrigo's story: Say nice things about MOS, and people will start to like you.

I need it, after being branded a deceitful, immoral, perverted pedophile, who has no right to say that he's concerned about today's youth, because he hypocritically got some sort of laugh from the Fappening

 

[Marvin]

Moral of Rodrigo's story: Say nice things about MOS, and people will start to like you.

And here I thought it was only the supporters that make these sorts of comments. You can only play the victim so far, your last post to Tempest for example.

Ironically, I suppose Rodrigo is faced with a decision. Does he go back to getting supporting comments from whom he was getting them from before, or does he enjoy them from whom he's getting them from now? Or perhaps there is no agenda in his feelings. I don't recall him being so out rightly accused of them before.

Long story short, get read Rod, this is the part where your intentions start to get questioned.

 

[Rekall101]

No, Jor-El encourages him to really push the limits of his gifts. Clark had already denied Zod's vision of the destruction of Earth. Jor-El was encouraging him, the same as Jonathan did, to do the right thing. Ultimately, the choice is still Clark's.

I'm not denying that the choice is ultimately Clark's but like everyone his choices are based on what has influenced him. And for me, that is ultimately way more Jor-El and his heritage than Jonathan and his upbringing.

And yes, he denied Zod but Jor-El had already basically told him Zod was a dick.

 

[Marvin]

Yes, Jonathan tells him it's his choice! Whether he becomes the ruler of earth or it's protector. He's done his job by making sure Clark is safe until the time comes for him to make that decision. And then Jor-El shows up and tells him he should help people and boom Clark becomes a hero. He's a hero because of Jor-El not Jonathan. If Clark hadn't found the kryptonian ship then what's to say he wouldn't have just carried on bumming around earth maybe helping people if he happened to be there, but never becoming the great symbol and hero he did.

Do you see what i mean? It takes away Superman's humanity and therefore I find it much harder to identify with the character.

Your issue is that Clark putting on the costume and running around as a clear symbol was not soley the work of Jonathan Kent but rather his alien father and thus it's both less human and also unrelatable? Just so I'm clear.

If so, firstly, like you acknowledge here, he was very much the hero doing the important work heroes do not only prior to JorEl but even in his early youth. Saving that oil rig(and not waiting around for praise) at his own risk is Hero class by any cbm standard. That basic reality doesn't take anything away from "Superman's Humanity" if anything it reinforces that him being the self sacrificing hero comes from his upbringing. As for Jor El giving him the lowdown on just what he is and where he comes from and why he's significant(last survivor) and what his name means and that he's not some weapon, as well as the costume...that's all additive. That such a creative turn destroys superman at his core I just can't agree with.
Some more proof of my assertion:
This isn't the first interpretation in which Jor shows up and costumed heroics ensue after the fact. And I'm not just talking about the Donner stuff either. But on that, the massive(and I mean massive) discrepancy lies in just what Clark does with his powers before Jor in this interpretation vs the last(s).

Lastly, I don't recall him deciding to step forward to the world in costume till his talk with Lois actually(that and the priest). I'm curious, does superman really need to decide to put on the costume and announce himself due to Jon for it to work for you? Because you see, Jor El meeting his son for the first time could have gone very differently. For example he could have been meeting a coward, or a vengeful god..or a CW flash villian..etc. That person Jor meets is very much Jon's son. It's the parable of the adopted kid meeting his birth father. Said father is meeting what he's meeting...

 

[Rodrigo90]

How much of that is what is actually in the movie, and how much of that is what you are trying to read into the movie?

I had to go over some scenes several times. But that is the gist of what it is...you just have to look REALLY carefully

All the Christ metaphors make it a bit more obvious in my eyes

Rodrigo, I'm happy you've found something to like.

For me, though, it's business as usual.

I'm not going to start singing it's praises just yet

I'm just not turning my nose up at it anymore because I'm starting to see things I couldn't before.
And I was doing that. I mean everybody else has their issues with it, and I'm not saying it's perfect, but for over a year and a half, I've been watching with my nose turned up and not giving it a fair chance. If I've had it on, I've been on my phone and rolling my eyes at it if I listen.

But tonight, I sat with my phone away from me...I listened, I watched and replayed a few scenes that I had issues with, over and over, til I started to really take in and understand the things that I wasn't before.
And I actually felt this little burst of happiness within me, because I finally saw and appreciated what it was trying to do along...and that was to make me love Man of Steel!
There are still a few things that I can find fault with. But it's really not as bad as I was thinking it was for so long.

And for the first time, I've watched it and really enjoyed for what it was

 

[Tempest]

Moral of Rodrigo's story: Say nice things about MOS, and people will start to like you.

Oh please. If you wanted a cookie, you should have asked. I have no problems sharing.

 

[Rodrigo90]

And they're pretty delicious too!

 

[The Batman]

And here I thought it was only the supporters that make these sorts of comments. You can only play the victim so far, your last post to Tempest for example.

I didn't know it was playing victim when you note how things work around here.

Ironically, I suppose Rodrigo is faced with a decision. Does he go back to getting supporting comments from whom he was getting them from before, or does he enjoy them from whom he's getting them from now? Or perhaps there is no agenda in his feelings. I don't recall him being so out rightly accused of them before.

What are you even talking about? My statement was in no way a judgment on Rodrigo but a judgment on MOS supporters: disagree that the movie is good and you're "being negative and making snide remarks". Start to say some good things, and suddenly "Oh! he sees the light! He gets it!"

Is Rodrigo gonna get overdefensive when people criticize MOS? Is he gonna talk to his fellow MOS supporters about how "negative" and "snide" people are because they, gasp, disagree with him? Is he gonna ascribe tired, cliche reasons to why people don't like MOS? Is he gonna complain and cry "conspiracy!" if bloggers have little to no faith in WB/DC due to their track record? If he won't do any of those things, he has my support, even if he likes the movie, and I simply find it mediocre.

Long story short, get read Rod, this is the part where your intentions start to get questioned.

You love making inane, unsupported assumptions, don't you?

 

[Tempest]

And they're pretty delicious too!

I have the best cookies on the net.

Cookies for everyone!!!!!!!!

 

[kguillou]

Can we all at least agree the main theme for this movie was awesome? I seriously listen to that song almost daily and the way it was placed at the end with Clark at the Planet. MAN that gives me GOOSEBUMPS every time.t:

 

[The Batman]

^ The music was epic.

 

[Tempest]

^ The music was epic.

....I have never really paid attention to the music. I almost never pay attention to background music in movies, unless it becomes annoying.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I didn't know it was playing victim when you note how things work around here.



What are you even talking about? My statement was in no way a judgment on Rodrigo but a judgment on MOS supporters: disagree that the movie is good and you're "being negative and making snide remarks". Start to say some good things, and suddenly "Oh! he sees the light! He gets it!"

Is Rodrigo gonna get overdefensive when people criticize MOS? Is he gonna talk to his fellow MOS supporters about how "negative" and "snide" people are because they, gasp, disagree with him? Is he gonna ascribe tired, cliche reasons to why people don't like MOS? Is he gonna complain and cry "conspiracy!" if bloggers have little to no faith in WB/DC due to their track record? If he won't do any of those things, he has my support, even if he likes the movie, and I simply find it mediocre.



You love making inane, unsupported assumptions, don't you?

It would be a hypocritical move on my part if I were to do that. And it would be something that I've never agreed on. I've never been struck by idolism. B89 will remain my favourite CBM and if I see people who nitpick it, I do get upset, but I won't force them to understand or like it. I realise even in that, that B89 isn't perfect and it can be goofy at times.
If you don't like something, you shouldn't be forced to or be called a troll when you point out what you don't like about it. Everybody has their own individual tastes and preferences.

Tempest doesnt like Chris Reeve as Superman...and I'm genuinely shocked!
I still stand by that he is the best Superman.
But there's no sense in trying to force anybody into thinking he's good.
Nobody forced me to like MOS after over a year of screwing my face up at it.
I've been trying my hardest to like it and I always felt a bit of failure in myself once the movie finished because I was still cold towards it.

I think Torch was right, I brainwashed myself into liking it

And I still can't say it's perfect or amazing. But I can say I appreciate it more than I did before and I can finally watch it with enjoyment rather than resentment. I don't want to go into the future of DCFU with that dislike hanging over my head

 

[kguillou]

It wasn't until recently that I started to really pay attention to music scores in movies. I've come to realize that the music plays an EXTREMELY important part in my enjoyment of the film as a whole. For example, I think Hans Zimmer played a BIG part in elevating the Dark Knight Rises, especially during the final moments of that movie.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I have the best cookies on the net.

Cookies for everyone!!!!!!!!

 

[Rekall101]

Your issue is that Clark putting on the costume and running around as a clear symbol was not soley the work of Jonathan Kent but rather his alien father and thus it's both less human and also unrelatable? Just so I'm clear.

If so, firstly, like you acknowledge here, he was very much the hero doing the important work heroes do not only prior to JorEl but even in his early youth. Saving that oil rig(and not waiting around for praise) at his own risk is Hero class by any cbm standard. That basic reality doesn't take anything away from "Superman's Humanity" if anything it reinforces that him being the self sacrificing hero comes from his upbringing. As for Jor El giving him the lowdown on just what he is and where he comes from and why he's significant(last survivor) and what his name means and that he's not some weapon, as well as the costume...that's all additive. That such a creative turn destroys superman at his core I just can't agree with.
Some more proof of my assertion:
This isn't the first interpretation in which Jor shows up and costumed heroics ensue after the fact. And I'm not just talking about the Donner stuff either. But on that, the massive(and I mean massive) discrepancy lies in just what Clark does with his powers before Jor in this interpretation vs the last(s).

Lastly, I don't recall him deciding to step forward to the world in costume till his talk with Lois actually(that and the priest). I'm curious, does superman really need to decide to put on the costume and announce himself due to Jon for it to work for you? Because you see, Jor El meeting his son for the first time could have gone very differently. For example he could have been meeting a coward, or a vengeful god..or a CW flash villian..etc. That person Jor meets is very much Jon's son. It's the parable of the adopted kid meeting his birth father. Said father is meeting what he's meeting...

First off, the more proof of your assertion:
You are right it's not the first time costumed heroics don't ensue till after he meets Jor-El but there are just as many interpretations where costumed heroics ensue before he meets Jor-El. Which proves nothing for either me or you.

I would agree whole heartedly that he doesn't need the costume or recognition to be a hero. However, the impression I got was that he wanted to be a hero (hence saving people etc) but because of Jonathan and the way he was raised he was doing it a furtive manner. He is still trying to hide NOT because 'a hero doesn't need to be seen to be a hero' (which I would be fine with) but because Jonathan taught him be afraid of revealing himself to the world. And it's not until he meets Jor-El that he gets the confidence to come out in to the light and become a symbol as well as a hero.

And to perfectly honest, if that's the story you want to tell it's a perfectly valid one. And if you enjoy it, good for you! I'm glad.

But I would have prefered something different...

As it's said on Krypton Clark/Kal was a natural birth. All the other Kryptonians were born to do specific tasks/jobs. But he had the potential to be anything, good or bad. And therefore it's down to how he was raised to make him a hero but I never got that. Maybe we can look at what he does during the film and infer that he must have been raised right and was taught to be a moral and upright person. BUT for me, nothing that actually happens in the film establishes that. We have to assume it. And by doing it that way you miss getting in the message that because he is human at heart, because of the way he was raised, then there is hope for anyone and everyone! That he is a hero because he is human and therefore hat we humanity can be truly great as well! And all it would have taken is a couple of scenes where Jonathan tells him what he can. Yes, try and be subtle about, yes, try and keep his secret but in the end to think of the greater good! Then when Jor-El shows up and makes him realise that he can help more people by being a symbol AND a hero he does because of the lessons he got from Jonathan not despite them!

 

[I Am The Knight]

You love making inane, unsupported assumptions, don't you?

You have no idea

 

[The Batman]

It would be a hypocritical move on my part if I were to do that. And it would be something that I've never agreed on. I've never been struck by idolism. B89 will remain my favourite CBM and if I see people who nitpick it, I do get upset, but I won't force them to understand or like it. I realise even in that, that B89 isn't perfect and it can be goofy at times.
If you don't like something, you shouldn't be forced to or be called a troll when you point out what you don't like about it. Everybody has their own individual tastes and preferences.

You have no idea

Reading this post, it felt like Michael Caine was speaking to me.

 

[Tempest]

It would be a hypocritical move on my part if I were to do that. And it would be something that I've never agreed on. I've never been struck by idolism. B89 will remain my favourite CBM and if I see people who nitpick it, I do get upset, but I won't force them to understand or like it. I realise even in that, that B89 isn't perfect and it can be goofy at times.
If you don't like something, you shouldn't be forced to or be called a troll when you point out what you don't like about it. Everybody has their own individual tastes and preferences.

Tempest doesnt like Chris Reeve as Superman...and I'm genuinely shocked!
I still stand by that he is the best Superman.
But there's no sense in trying to force anybody into thinking he's good.
Nobody forced me to like MOS after over a year of screwing my face up at it.
I've been trying my hardest to like it and I always felt a bit of failure in myself once the movie finished because I was still cold towards it.

I think Torch was right, I brainwashed myself into liking it

And I still can't say it's perfect or amazing. But I can say I appreciate it more than I did before and I can finally watch it with enjoyment rather than resentment. I don't want to go into the future of DCFU with that dislike hanging over my head

I like him when he's not talking. When I was little, I wanted to marry him. But as far as Superman goes...I just didn't like that particular Superman.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I like him when he's not talking. When I was little, I wanted to marry him. But as far as Superman goes...I just didn't like that particular Superman.

B-b-b-bbbbut!

To me, he's the ultimate hero. The dedication and presence that Reeve brought to the role, it has to be admired. He was only 24 and I feel like the guy could have been President if he wanted.

And that's what I think from the old days of Superman. You want this man to command your country, because he has those perfect, heroic leadership qualities.

If Cavill's Supes and Reeve's Supes were in the presidential race, I'd know who I'd vote for...even if his policy on nuclear weapons is bit of a national security concern

 

[Tempest]

B-b-b-bbbbut!

To me, he's the ultimate hero. The dedication and presence that Reeve brought to the role, it has to be admired. He was only 24 and I feel like the guy could have been President if he wanted.

And that's what I think from the old days of Superman. You want this man to command your country, because he has those perfect, heroic leadership qualities.

If Cavill's Supes and Reeve's Supes were in the presidential race, I'd know who I'd vote for...even if his policy on nuclear weapons is bit of a national security concern

Pffft, like I'd vote for either of them.

 

[Rodrigo90]

Pffft, like I'd vote for either of them.

Remember what happened to Stan in South Park when he refused to vote for either Giant *****e or Turd Sandwich?

 

[Tempest]

Remember what happened to Stan in South Park when he refused to vote for either Giant *****e or Turd Sandwich?

Er...was that the Vote or Die campaign one?