Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

[Marvin]

I actually feel kind of bad about this. While I do agree with this sentiment to a degree, I was going for snark instead of giving you a real, full answer. So, let me elaborate on my opinion in a way that isn't quite so pointlessly sassy:

Fair enough.

The film would be just as effective for the people who already like it, and more effective for the people who don't.

And that, I believe, makes for better film making.

I unfortunately don't agree. I personally find that just makes for a different type of film experience. Perhaps one someone could deem better or better made even... You could adorn this similar essay on say, a great deal of comedies and make them all examples of better film making. Things that not only speak clearly to one type of audience but the 'other' one at the same time if you will.
I however, just don't think everything needs to do everything for every one. Sometimes there are people that are left unsatisfied(lord knows I'd love to see the angry bat god in TDK). In a sense I see you as describing how the film could have worked better for you, again I'm not sure where that actually places the film in the grand scheme after the fact.

As for the city and getting to know it, I mean a good deal of why Gotham has that which you describe is due in large part to the circumstance. For example unlike Kent in the big city, Bruce is kinda in Gotham from the jump as well as having an ownership of his own city in the very first narrative(where was bruce 10 years old, where was he 15..etc). Then there is the idea that what you are describing, as much sense it seems to make, just isn't all that needed outright. For example you have the final act in GotG(something I assume works for people), happening in a place we've spent as much time as...metropolis. With plenty of buildings, destruction and death with just as little follow through, not to mention the lack of identifiable folk. Maybe the actual issue isn't as you describe but rather lies someplace else. If there is one at all.

Funny enough, I think the superman mythology of distant parents tragically sending their only begotten son down the stream has it's pathos amplified in a way your thesis would describe here in MOS(opening). That is, compared to the Brando experience and all that was given to that sequence.

I see what you are getting at about wanting more from Costner performance in the face of his death. I just see an obvious out given the context of everything presented. I just simply need to imagine that scene with an uncle ben type gunned down in a new york street and I'd find myself asking for more as well, but not here. Here there is a major element of self sacrifice, putting on a strong face for said loved one, and being content; all those things allow for this out and give the artist an opportunity to point everything in that direction in a way he might not be so inclined in a scene where a man is gunned down in the dark and alone. I feel at this point it's just us stepping in said artist shoes and describing what 'we would have done with it'. Again, I could write and essay on how to amplify everything in Begins to my liking, but I'm just not going to then claim those liberties lead to a 'better film' due to them now tickling my fancy and that of my ilk. Maybe that makes for a worse experience, maybe it makes for a better one.

Like our discussion a few days ago, I think alot of this boils down to who we are and our own life experience. The director/actors decisions will fall upon and speak to all of us differently and that's(imo) the entire point of art. Someones ideas and finding people with whom that expression speaks to.
To each his own.

 

[Tempest]

Fair enough. The director/actors decisions will fall upon and speak to all of us differently and that's(imo) the entire point of art. Someones ideas and finding people with him that expression speaks to.
To each his own.

Hi, you!

 

[Marvin]

Hi, you!

long time.

 

[Tempest]

long time.

I know! I ran away from the MOS forums for a while.

Back to this

Yay Man of Steel. I liked the film a lot. I liked a lot of it, wouldn't have changed much of it, and it's my favorite version of Superman on screen so far.

 

[Marvin]

I too was surprised to see such a thing outside either of that films sections. People like talking about it though. That's my excuse anyways.
I have a feeling it will stop after the follow up, for better or worse.

 

[Tempest]

I too was surprised to see such a thing outside either of that films sections. People like talking about it though. That's my excuse anyways.
I have a feeling it will stop after the follow up, for better or worse.

I am prepared to love it, and I am prepared if I hate it. I have some concerns about it, so we'll see how much people will have to talk me off a ledge when it comes out.

My prediction is most everyone on the forum will love it, and I will be the one who is really unhappy with it.

 

[BatmanVSuperman]

 

[Rodrigo90]

I am prepared to love it, and I am prepared if I hate it. I have some concerns about it, so we'll see how much people will have to talk me off a ledge when it comes out.

My prediction is most everyone on the forum will love it, and I will be the one who is really unhappy with it.

If you love MOS, I doubt you'll hate BvS...

It could have 10% on RT and people will still think it's excellent.
Batman could be wearing pink throughout most of the film, and people will defend it to death.
While the rest of us, who aren't sucked into it like a tornado, will try to open eyes and point out its absurdities...but will be shot down, with excuses, as to why Superman ate a baby for breakfast, why Batman murdered Alfred with a croquet mallet while wearing stockings and suspenders, and why in one scene, Lex has a flashback to 5 minutes ago when he was sitting on the toilet.
Excuses as to why everbody is written as robots and the only main personality traits are martyrism and blandism. Excuses as to why Alex Murphy has a gentle smile on his face, standing in total silence and acceptance, as Clarence Boddicker's boys tear new orifices with shotguns and as he is about to die, explains to Lewis the meaning and purposes of human life, quantum physics and the location of Jimmy Hoffa...and to go with God...

At least the flashabacks in that scene would be a little more understandable...but they'd be flashbacks that fill the story with nothing - nothing that has any bearing to the ending where it's pulled out of nowhere, when Robocop slaughters an entire convent of nuns...nothing anywhere establishing a good reason why he would do that...You don't find it in the present or the flashbacks, he just kills them, and in the next scene it's like it had no profound effect on him or the scenes that follow...but of course, we'll get more excuses, as to why that this BvS movie, with Robocop bizarrely thrown in there, is the greatest movie of all time

 

[Marvin]

If you love MOS, I doubt you'll hate BvS...

It could have 10% on RT and people will still think it's excellent.
Batman could be wearing pink throughout most of the film, and people will defend it to death.
While the rest of us, who aren't sucked into it like a tornado, will try to open eyes and point out its absurdities...
.
.

I find this post mostly ironic. In the first part you assert that the films die hards will defend it no matter what. I assume that's because you are supposedly seeing this phenomena of defending utter crap happen with MOS...
Then you go on to describe what could actually be considered 'crap' by your definition. Pink leotards, sitting on toilets, killling nuns...etc*. Alot of hyperbole if you will. This is the kind of extreme crap that said fans are supposedly willing to embrace and defend. Funny enough, MoS has nothing of the sort and mos fans don't defend any of those types of hyperbolic extremes. It's ironic because the detractors attack the film as if it was as poor as your examples(that's what you are doing here) yet the film never goes anywhere near there. It's because the film never goes any where near there that the supporters have to constantly(as I'm doing in this very instance) show up and confront this stuff head on. Only to then be described as you are doing here, rinse and repeat.

Point being, people probably won't defend a film that is a poorly made as you are describing. They didn't last time and they probably won't this time. The main reason being, there exists no such film. Yet here you are with your examples...
Again, no doubt based on something you see happening both in mos the film, and it's defenders, when really you are just enacting more of what's flawed with it's criticisms. Hyperbole unbound.
10% on RT vs 56% if you will.

*

Excuses as to why Alex Murphy has a gentle smile on his face, standing in total silence and acceptance, as Clarence Boddicker's boys tear new orifices with shotguns and as he is about to die

I assume this has something to do with my stated opinion. Again, I find it a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about. Who knows, maybe I would defend that type of direction as well, for I'm clearly doing it in MOS

I personally really dug the original death scene of Alex Murphy, I remember citing it alot during my reception of Superman Returns and the subtle beating he received by his passionate enemy. That being said, you mentioning Murphy in this very instance as it's compared to the state of mind of Jon Kent pretty much makes my point for me. John isn't actually in that level of pain, he isn't actually in protest(willing self sacrifice), he is putting on a brave face for his loved ones and the person he's literally doing it for, he isn't being hate murdered by the scum of Detroit...I could go on in all the ways their circumstances are different. Not just to point out the differences in your analogy(which would be enough to elicit this retort), but to strengthen the point of just why, unlike the horrific and senseless death of Alex J. Murphy, there is an opportunity to direct the death of Kent in a very different way given the point and circumstance and character, without it 'not working'.

 

[Rodrigo90]

I find this post mostly ironic. In the first part you assert that the films die hards will defend it no matter what. I assume that's because you are supposedly seeing this phenomena of defending utter crap happen with MOS...
Then you go on to describe what could actually be considered 'crap' by your definition. Pink leotards, sitting on toilets, killling nuns...etc*. Alot of hyperbole if you will. This is the kind of extreme crap that said fans are supposedly willing to embrace and defend. Funny enough, MoS has nothing of the sort and mos fans don't defend any of those types of hyperbolic extremes. It's ironic because the detractors attack the film as if it was as poor as your examples(that's what you are doing here) yet the film never goes anywhere near there. It's because the film never goes any where near there that the supporters have to constantly(as I'm doing in this very instance) show up and confront this stuff head on. Only to then be described as you are doing here, rinse and repeat.

Point being, people probably won't defend a film that is a poorly made as you are describing. They didn't last time and they probably won't this time. The main reason being, there exists no such film. Yet here you are with your examples...
Again, no doubt based on something you see happening both in mos the film, and it's defenders, when really you are just enacting more of what's flawed with it's criticisms. Hyperbole unbound.
10% on RT vs 56% if you will.

*
I assume this has something to do with my stated opinion. Again, I find it a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about. Who knows, maybe I would defend that type of direction as well, for I'm clearly doing it in MOS

I personally really dug the original death scene of Alex Murphy, I remember citing it alot during my reception of Superman Returns and the subtle beating he received by his passionate enemy. That being said, you mentioning Murphy in this very instance as it's compared to the state of mind of Jon Kent pretty much makes my point for me. John isn't actually in that level of pain, he isn't actually in protest(willing self sacrifice), he is putting on a brave face for his loved ones and the person he's literally doing it for, he isn't being hate murdered by the scum of Detroit...I could go on in all the ways their circumstances are different. Not just to point out the differences in your analogy(which would be enough to elicit this retort), but to strengthen the point of just why, unlike the horrific and senseless death of Alex J. Murphy, there is an opportunity to direct the death of Kent in a very different way given the point and circumstance and character, without it 'not working'.

My disclaimer note was missing about taking things with sarcasm and a warm open heart

And also

Now on to what I said. Is MOS crap? No, it's not. I don't hate it. I just don't accept it as much as everybody else does.
Believe me, I've TRIED to like it.
I don't dislike it just for the sake of disliking it and upsetting people who love it.
I point out its faults and absurdities, from my eyes. Every film has them, no movie is perfect.

So I ask this...is there anything that the fans find off about it? Instead of defending it from my attacks and criticism. Tell me why you think it's as amazing and as perfect as you make it out to be. Surely there has to be something you find fault with?

 

[Marvin]

My point didn't need your post to be sarcastic or not. You weren't being facetious about fans defending anything and everything and your hyperbole was accurate in that it represents the type of film that would 'deserve' massive and prolonged backlash. A movie about wolverine walking into a boxing gym and clowning around with the blob then the amnesia bullet...That this film(mos) was so far removed from what you were joking about is my point.
To each his own I suppose.

Anyways, I can't say what fans should find off about it because I can't really speak for fans. I compare the experience to hearing fans talk about comic book issues, I wouldn't imagine speaking for 'fans' when it comes to my inclinations on the Azz WonderWoman run. However I also don't think every fan needs to be happy with said book for it to work, same with any single issue of superman. Some people love doomsday/all star, some hate it. Hard to explain...

That being said, I think like alot of franchise filmmakers(especially in the cbms field), the second go round is an opportunity to move past the ground work and experimenting(simply visualizing powers even) as well as build off of feedback and what not. Can't see these producers falling into the same exact trap of not giving fanboys all the pedestrian saves they require for instance. Singer making DofP for example benefits from this circumstance greatly. I think more people should be 'hopeful' if you will. I don't see another jon kent death with all it's 'flaws' going down in BvS.

 

[BH/HHH]

Of course it has flaws there's not a single film in the world that doesn't but for me it's a near perfect film. Any gripes I have are very minor.

 

[Boy Scout]

To be honest, I envy that. I really, really wanted to like the movie. I was positive that I would. I went to the midnight premiere with a good friend of mine and couldn't wait to talk about all my favorite parts of the movie on the drive home. Instead, I ended up dissecting the whole thing and liking it less and less the more we talked about it. For what it's worth, I think he liked it a little better than I did, but still found it a little disappointing.

I'm happy that a lot of people have gotten the Superman movie they've always wanted, but I haven't. Controversial decisions aside, I find the movie to be poorly written, directed, acted, and edited in a lot of places and it just drags my enjoyment of it down to levels I didn't think was possible for a Superman movie. Is it the worst movie I've ever seen? Absolutely not. But out of the four decent Superman movies, it's definitely the worst.

 

[BH/HHH]

Nobody goes into a film wanting to dislike it, it's just unfortunate that some people do. I really do wish you could enjoy it on the level I do.

But hey we all have films like that don't we? Personally I find it hard to get over the things I don't like in the Dark Knight Rises but hey I moved on and thankfully it's still decent enough for me to enjoy it somewhat.

 

[Boy Scout]

Superman is my favorite character. Batman is my second. I can say with no hesitation that I would trade all three of Christopher Nolan's Batman movies to get a Superman movie on par with TDK. I would trade the vast majority (if not all) of Marvel Studios' films to get a Superman movie as awesome as TWS.

How many Superman movies are there? Six? And there's not one that I'm completely in love with? That's sad.

 

[BH/HHH]

Superman is my favorite character. Batman is my second. I can say with no hesitation that I would trade all three of Christopher Nolan's Batman movies to get a Superman movie on par with TDK. I would trade the vast majority (if not all) of Marvel Studios' films to get a Superman movie as awesome as TWS.

How many Superman movies are there? Six? And there's not one that I'm completely in love with? That's sad.

Its a shame its like that for you, Man of Steel and Superman the Movie are my two favourite movies.

 

[Boy Scout]

I really like STM, but I don't love it. It's great fun, but it's a little too silly. If it had maintained a slightly more consistent and serious tone, and had a more threatening villain, it would've been great.

SII is great. It's my favorite Superman movie. However, I acknowledge that Superman is written a bit OOC, and it, like its predecessor, contains some really silly stuff.

SR is the antithesis of MOS. The former has too little action, but the latter has too much. SR was arguably too emotional; MOS was devoid of it. Brandon Routh was mostly overshadowed by his supported cast; Henry Cavill dominated his. I could go on and on. At the end of the day, I'd rather watch SR.

 

[kguillou]

Imo, Superman: The Movie would be a damn near perfect movie if it wasn't for the ending. UGH that ending gets me upset every time, especially since the rest of the film is fantastic. I would give ANYTHING for a new cut of the film with an alternate ending. Any ending.

 

[The Batman]

Superman: The Movie is the only Superman film I would consider great.

A lot of MOS fans love to paint the movies detractors as a black hole of negativity, or even worse, be ignorant enough as to paint detractors as being blindingly loyal to Donner, so much so that they would've never accepted MOS. Those fans seem to forget the fact that EVERYONE was hyped for MOS based off the trailers and promotion, all of which presented a film that wasn't Donner like at all, but an epic modern film featuring Superman.

It really says something when a sizable amount of people are disappointed with this movie, regardless of whether or not they're the majority or minority.

 

[Marvin]

SR was arguably too emotional; MOS was devoid of it

Clearly you're not being literal, but I'm curious how much of this is serious(I seemingly am a bad judge).

It really says something when a sizable amount of people are disappointed with this movie, regardless of whether or not they're the majority or minority.

It does say something. But I'm afraid it might not be what you are thinking in this case.

In this day and age, there are a sizable amount of people that are disappointed in all sorts of things. From Snow Piercer to a handful of Nolan movies to any marvel movie, to anime, to James Cameron...I digress. The level of cynicism we encounter today(vs when Hook was released) is what it is, but giving credence to a large group of people not being pleased with something...
It happens. I personally would rather that say something about the people rather than the art itself. For example, "a sizable" amount of people were disappointed with the movie that won best picture last year, or any and all of the cbm efforts from Fox Studios...That's saying something, but what exactly.

 

[Boy Scout]

Clearly you're not being literal, but I'm curious how much of this is serious(I seemingly am a bad judge).

All of it.

Almost all of the emotional beats fell flat. The material was there (I guess), but Snyder made most of it feel like an afterthought.

 

[Joeyjojo72]

It is very very important to MoS fans that the general public and fandom love the film. They will cherry pick the most dubious sources (IMDB, Cinemascore. They arent picky) to reinforce this belief. Convincing them otherwise, or even questioning it, is utterly pointless.

1. The critics were Snyder haters and/or they didn't "get" it.
2. The box office was great for a reboot and was exactly what WB was hoping for.
3. The dvd sales prove the film is beloved by the GA anyway.
4. The response would have been even bigger if it werent for either a) old farts nostalgic for some outdated version of Supes or b) fallout from Superman Returns
5. The various polls on SHH "prove" that the real fans actually loved it.
6. Etc...

If it means that much to them, let em have it I say. Thats why Ive abandoned the MoS/Supes forums for the most part.

 

[Marvin]

Check this out:

It is very very important to MoS detractors that the general public and fandom hate the film. They will cherry pick the most dubious sources (IMDB, Cinemascore. They arent picky) to reinforce this belief. Convincing them otherwise, or even questioning it, is utterly pointless. If it means that much to them, let em have it I say. Thats why Ive abandoned the MoS/Supes forums for the most part.

funny story and endless loop if you pay attention to the details. We all have our own experience it seems. It's just that some of us actually think ours is the one that speaks to the greater truth.

All of it.

Almost all of the emotional beats fell flat. The material was there (I guess), but Snyder made most of it feel like an afterthought.

I meant for what you said about both movies.
Either way, I believe you(given what I preach about the individual experience), I also find myself believing all the others who say the opposite(of both movies).
Some people think inception and all of nolans films are cold emotionally and due to his direction(even the recent one) and others feel differently.

 

[The Batman]

It does say something. But I'm afraid it might not be what you are thinking in this case.

In this day and age, there are a sizable amount of people that are disappointed in all sorts of things. From Snow Piercer to a handful of Nolan movies to any marvel movie, to anime, to James Cameron...I digress. .

 

[hopefuldreamer]

To be honest, I envy that. I really, really wanted to like the movie. I was positive that I would. I went to the midnight premiere with a good friend of mine and couldn't wait to talk about all my favorite parts of the movie on the drive home. Instead, I ended up dissecting the whole thing and liking it less and less the more we talked about it. For what it's worth, I think he liked it a little better than I did, but still found it a little disappointing.

I'm happy that a lot of people have gotten the Superman movie they've always wanted, but I haven't. Controversial decisions aside, I find the movie to be poorly written, directed, acted, and edited in a lot of places and it just drags my enjoyment of it down to levels I didn't think were possible for a Superman movie.

Superman is my favorite character. Batman is my second. I can say with no hesitation that I would trade all three of Christopher Nolan's Batman movies to get a Superman movie on par with TDK. I would trade the vast majority (if not all) of Marvel Studios' films to get a Superman movie as awesome as TWS.

How many Superman movies are there? Six? And there's not one that I'm completely in love with? That's sad.

Just wanted to say, I agree with all of this. It seems we had a very similar experience of the film.

And if you feel anywhere near the way I do about it.... I am very sorry for your loss!