Rate MAN OF STEEL......once and for all

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Look,I'll come out and say it.Nolan was all wrong in associating himself with this film.They tried to subject Supes to the old Nolan "realism", while hoping Snyder could fold in a measure of the action that people were expecting after SR.

It was not a match made in heaven.

The first half being a dour,depressing character study,the second a mind numbing action film.

They should've let Snyder have full charge,IMO.Trying to adhere to the Nolan style with a character that is clearly not made for it,that's what caused the overall problem.
What problem exactly? That it wasn't for some people?
I'm glad people keep giving their ideas on who to fix the film but in much of these instances, really all they are doing is explaining how to make it more for them and little more.

You say it's something that the character is clearly not made for?
It would be like saying the same thing of KingdomCome. It just comes off self important. If that book isn't for you it's not for you. Funny enough it too starts off as all you say here, and it ends off in 'mind numbing' action(The latter being a term I find is also never used accurately).

Sometimes people say: not everything needs to be dark and grounded etc. Well that goes both ways, not everything, even superman needs to be light and overly fun in every interpretation all the time. There should be room for all sorts. It just so happens with Superman, there is going to be a bit of kicking and screaming one dealing with the one and only continuity that matters apparently(live action film). I suppose we'll see how things stand after their second go round. For better or worse. Reading the last few posts on the last page it's seems more apparently that even if they did execute a better film, there would exist people declaring things like it's supposed to be a wish fulfillment character and such. I don't see this paradigm shift going over without controversy in it's first go round. But that's an old story.

But this idea that superman needs to be a certain way is...lacking imagination imo.
I also find the idea(stated elsewhere) that you can't mix serious thematic story with punching and explosions and over the top etc... short sighted. Then again buffy fan here.
 
Okay. I know I said I never would, but I decided to suck it up and watch the movie again. Here are my thoughts.

The Good:

- Michael Shannon, Kevin Costner, and Diane Lane were all better than I remembered them being.

- Superman's first flight brought a smile to my face. Cavill really sold it.

- Zod's message to Earth was incredibly well done. It was everything it needed to be and more. However, it cannot be denied that such an aggressive opening act was unwise.

- Superman struggling and overcoming the gravity beam (while Jenny and Perry face certain death) was perfectly executed. I got chills.

The Bad:

- Jor-El should not have been able to take on fully trained soldiers.

- The actress who played Lara was awful.

- The scene where Clark discovers his X-Ray vision and super hearing was randomly inserted and added nothing to the narrative. I don't understand how Martha was able to help him when she couldn't have possibly known what was wrong.

- At one point, we went from a flashback to a setup for a flashback to another flashback.

- The infamous "dick splash" insult is just as terrible as everybody says it is.

- The infamous "dick measuring" line is just as awkward as everybody says it is.

- Clark left Lois to freeze to death after taking the time to cauterize her wound.

- Krypton apparently made no advancements in technology or design for thousands of years.

- Jor-El and Lara's rationale for sending Kal-El to Earth by himself was ludicrous, and I don't understand how they ever expected him to become aware of their plans for him in the first place.

- Jor-El emphasized that Clark was the embodiment of free will and was free to determine his own destiny, but in the next breath admitted to sending him to Earth to fulfill a predetermined purpose.

- There was no build up to Clark putting on the suit or being called Superman. Those moments felt very anticlimactic, especially the latter.

- The Codex **** was pointless.

- Clark just stood by and watched his father die. That scene will never not be awful.

- I found some of the dialogue to be either heavy handed or awkwardly expositional.

- For all the talk about how Clark was going to change the world and inevitably inspire negative reactions (resistance, fear, etc.), we weren't given the opportunity to see how the world at large felt about the existence of aliens in general or Superman specifically. It's all build up and no payoff.

- Clark actually had to be convinced to turn himself over to Zod and allow the human race to be spared.

- The film felt directionless for the first hour.

- Zod expected Superman to join him after threatening both him and the Earth - twice.

- Henry Cavill and Amy Adams had no chemistry.

- In his haste to pound Zod, Superman not only left his mother alone with Zod's soldiers, but brought them all to downtown Smallville.

- Lois should not have been allowed to accompany the military during the climax.

- Superman versus the World Engine felt just as tedious, boring, and unnecessary the second time around.

- Superman crashed a ship in the middle of the Metropolis.

- Superman and Lois made out in the middle of ruined Metropolis.

- I checked out during the last twenty minutes. There's a lot of destruction, but none of it means anything.

The Okay:

- The cinematography. It wasn't terrible, but I got bored looking at it after a while.

- The opening on Krypton was a little too long and didn't leave much of an impact.

- Jonathan is a lot less irritating than I remember him being. I've always understood his concerns, but was able to relate to him on an individual level a little more after I heard certain bits of dialogue. However, I cannot agree with his suggestion that allowing Clark's classmates to die might have been the right decision, and I really dislike that he (apparently) instilled within Clark a fundamental mistrust of the human race. This is still my least favorite interpretation of the character.

- Not a single Kryptonian aged a day in thirty-three years.

- Amy Adams. She wasn't quite as bland as I remembered, but still very much so.

- Henry Cavill. He, unfortunately, wasn't as good as I remembered him being.

- The Jesus symbolism was a bit much.

TL;DR: I was surprised by certain things, but it's still a 6/10.
 
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There's nothing wrong with bringing new ideas to the table or mixing in serious and fantastical elements together. What it comes down to is execution. Man of Steel is a poorly executed film, that's not to say it's a bad movie, it's just a mess that isn't quite sure what it's trying to say. MoS suffers from some of the same problems as The Dark Knight Rises in that there are serious pacing issues as well as having grounded and fantastical elements not meshing well, the difference being is that one film is so overstuff with ideas that it runs out of time to do the story justice and the other seems to have just no idea with what it's trying to say in the first place. One film suffers from too much size, scope and narrative, the other from too little understanding of story telling fundamentals.
 
I see this thread has become a camping ground for those who still want to trash the movie.:funny:

The results must hurt. Ouch!
 
Look,I'll come out and say it.Nolan was all wrong in associating himself with this film.They tried to subject Supes to the old Nolan "realism", while hoping Snyder could fold in a measure of the action that people were expecting after SR.

It was not a match made in heaven.

The first half being a dour,depressing character study,the second a mind numbing action film.

They should've let Snyder have full charge,IMO.Trying to adhere to the Nolan style with a character that is clearly not made for it,that's what caused the overall problem.

Eh, I don't think Snyder is a very good director when left to his open devices. I think trying to adhere to Nolan's style made the film a lot better than it would have been if it was pure Snyder.

Honestly, I think Nolan's style can work for Superman is it's handled the right way. The tone and style of Interstellar, for example, would work for Superman.
 
I see this thread has become a camping ground for those who still want to trash the movie.:funny:

The results must hurt. Ouch!

I know. It is amazing. Twenty four pages of mostly people who hated the film bantering back and forth about how much they hated it. The results of the poll must be killing them.
 
Okay.
- Clark actually had to be convinced to turn himself over to Zod and allow the human race to be spared.

I don't want to debate point of view or anything, but I did want to quibble this issue with you.

Clark made it very clear that he wasn't turning himself into Zod. He turned himself into the humans. He let humanity decide his fate - and then humans chose to turn him over to Zod.

The struggle Superman was dealing with wasn't whether or not to save humanity. It was to figure out whether he would go through human channels, and maybe work with them, or if he would ultimately face Zod alone.

And less factual is that I really love the internal battle he has, because it made him seem all the more human. The fear and doubt are what most people would face when they are faced with the prospect of facing great danger. But he buckles down, makes his choice, and never backs down from that choice. :hrt:
 
6/10

High side of average. I liked a lot of things about the film, but I found it very hit and miss. I loved the stuff with Lois and the Planet, but I found the Clark stuff to be very boring and preachy. Thought the flashbacks didn't add a lot to the story. The super hearing flashback was good, but the stuff with Jonathan I wasn't a fan of.
 
As far as what has to be shown for this stuff to work. That much is subjective. There are alot of films out there that require their audience think for instance. You get enough alot of characterization and history from the les mes ensemble from what you, the analytical audience can put together and without precious story time of it being shown being required. A better example may be Gatsby. Especially when you suggest 'for a film to make sense' I mean we have things like Jon Wick with it's lead not confusing anyone. Why is Superman super nice even though he grew up in a mean world? How does he even know how to spell the world love, for his entire upbringing was seemingly devoid of it...

The difference is, it's an origin movie. Origin movies are about HOW the hero became the hero.

If the hero became the man he is because he was raised in a warm and loving environment, then you should SHOW that warm and loving environment as part of the heroes origin tale. If it's a HUGE part of how he became the hero (which I believe it is), you give it a fair amount of screen time. You don't just mention it in passing or allude to it slightly.

The fact is, the part of 'what made him the hero' that they gave huge amounts of screen time to was:

1. Jonathon warning him he had to wait until the world was 'ready'
2. Jor-el's telling him of his hopes for his place on earth

Those are the the two things that were repeated over and over, and so those are the things we are supposed to assume played the biggest part in his journey to becoming a hero.

The warmth and love of being brought up by an ordinary but truly GOOD couple (what I would argue should be the MOST important aspect of his backstory) is barely even touched upon, and is fairly difficult to even gleam from the small amount we do see (like you said, the photo album, the martha scene, the scene of JK watching him play with the dog) because of the heavy depressing tone of the majority of scenes we see of his interactions with his parents.

That being said I stand by the idea that plenty was actually shown(right down to the photo in the album). I imagine a take on this film that shows absolutely none of what I'm talking about would have me feeling somewhat differently.

But you're going in with a solid knowledge of how loving and warm and kind the Kents are because you know the story. And yes, the majority of the GA probably knows enough to know that, but it doesn't give the film makers a free pass not to bother with it. Especially when you're trying to make a film that's 'grounded in realism' and telling it as though there has never been a Superman story before.

If I watch that film and push all prior knowledge of JK aside, their relationship seems very disfunctional.

You've basically got a kid who is desperate to connect with a Dad that's kind of distant and so bogged down in fear and pessimism about humanity that he ends up stunting his sons capacity to be heroic. He still can't help himself, but his early heroism isn't a product of his family's support and encouragement... it's DESPITE his family's dissaproval and discouragement.

Lastly, I won't argue that showing more of such a thing wouldn't hurt. It may even help. Then again, it could be argued that more showing of such things would help any of these batman films as well. Just depends on what you want I suppose.

I think Batman Begins did a very good job of showing the loving relationship between Bruce and his father, and how good a man his father was.

FYI the stethoscope scene is still one of my favorite parts of the film. It's just such a sweet moment.

Ummmm ... he did not go off with the bullies. He stayed behind and lent Clark his hand.

He was at a distance from the group of kids, and they all walked off in the bullies line of direction when one of them pointed at Jonathan.
Pete helped Clark up, but he still went off in their direction.
He was friendly with him, but they weren't implied to be best friends.

Yeah that's not a friendship.

And geez, if it was, then him telling all to reporter Lois Lane when she came asking about the bus accident was a terrible betrayal.

Thats one of my biggest problems with this film, really. They turned a wish fufillment character into a guy who basically acts like most 21st Century Film Superheroes

Yeah, I mean I expected he'd be fairly '21st century' but thought that'd be more about them sticking to post crisis material.

I didn't think it'd mean them stripping a lot of what makes him stand out so that he could fit with the trends... cause it basically lead to a quite forgettable movie for the GA.

I see this thread has become a camping ground for those who still want to trash the movie.:funny:

The results must hurt. Ouch!

I know. It is amazing. Twenty four pages of mostly people who hated the film bantering back and forth about how much they hated it. The results of the poll must be killing them.

Why would other fans happiness hurt?

And why do you both sound like you would take pleasure in that if it was true?
 
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Not sure how many of you have any experience with bullying.

Pete not following his friends, and instead giving Clark a hand up, is very meaningful.

The thing about bullying, and I'm going to discuss this in spite of the fact that Hype is filled with hostile and abusive trolls, is that it often seems so uniform. There will be 10, 20, 30 people ganging up on somebody, perfectly synchronized and relentless. In that situation you find yourself wishing that just one person doesn't pile on, to provide a window into non-hostility.

Anyway that's what Pete did. Previously Pete was bullying Clark, then Clark saved the bus, then when Clark was bullied again Pete refused to participate and instead extended Clark his hand rather than following his friends.

The shot of Pete's hand is a full second so we're clear on what Snyder wanted to communicate.
 
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Okay. I know I said I never would, but I decided to suck it up and watch the movie again. Here are my thoughts.

The Good:

- Michael Shannon, Kevin Costner, and Diane Lane were all better than I remembered them being.

- Superman's first flight brought a smile to my face. Cavill really sold it.

- Zod's message to Earth was incredibly well done. It was everything it needed to be and more. However, it cannot be denied that such an aggressive opening act was unwise.

- Superman struggling and overcoming the gravity beam (while Jenny and Perry face certain death) was perfectly executed. I got chills.

The Bad:

- Jor-El should not have been able to take on fully trained soldiers.

- The actress who played Lara was awful.

- The scene where Clark discovers his X-Ray vision and super hearing was randomly inserted and added nothing to the narrative. I don't understand how Martha was able to help him when she couldn't have possibly known what was wrong.

- At one point, we went from a flashback to a setup for a flashback to another flashback.

- The infamous "dick splash" insult is just as terrible as everybody says it is.

- The infamous "dick measuring" line is just as awkward as everybody says it is.

- Clark left Lois to freeze to death after taking the time to cauterize her wound.

- Krypton apparently made no advancements in technology or design for thousands of years.

- Jor-El and Lara's rationale for sending Kal-El to Earth by himself was ludicrous, and I don't understand how they ever expected him to become aware of their plans for him in the first place.

- Jor-El emphasized that Clark was the embodiment of free will and was free to determine his own destiny, but in the next breath admitted to sending him to Earth to fulfill a predetermined purpose.

- There was no build up to Clark putting on the suit or being called Superman. Those moments felt very anticlimactic, especially the latter.

- The Codex **** was pointless.

- Clark just stood by and watched his father die. That scene will never not be awful.

- I found some of the dialogue to be either heavy handed or awkwardly expositional.

- For all the talk about how Clark was going to change the world and inevitably inspire negative reactions (resistance, fear, etc.), we weren't given the opportunity to see how the world at large felt about the existence of aliens in general or Superman specifically. It's all build up and no payoff.

- Clark actually had to be convinced to turn himself over to Zod and allow the human race to be spared.

- The film felt directionless for the first hour.

- Zod expected Superman to join him after threatening both him and the Earth - twice.

- Henry Cavill and Amy Adams had no chemistry.

- In his haste to pound Zod, Superman not only left his mother alone with Zod's soldiers, but brought them all to downtown Smallville.

- Lois should not have been allowed to accompany the military during the climax.

- Superman versus the World Engine felt just as tedious, boring, and unnecessary the second time around.

- Superman crashed a ship in the middle of the Metropolis.

- Superman and Lois made out in the middle of ruined Metropolis.

- I checked out during the last twenty minutes. There's a lot of destruction, but none of it means anything.

The Okay:

- The cinematography. It wasn't terrible, but I got bored looking at it after a while.

- The opening on Krypton was a little too long and didn't leave much of an impact.

- Jonathan is a lot less irritating than I remember him being. I've always understood his concerns, but was able to relate to him on an individual level a little more after I heard certain bits of dialogue. However, I cannot agree with his suggestion that allowing Clark's classmates to die might have been the right decision, and I really dislike that he (apparently) instilled within Clark a fundamental mistrust of the human race. This is still my least favorite interpretation of the character.

- Not a single Kryptonian aged a day in thirty-three years.

- Amy Adams. She wasn't quite as bland as I remembered, but still very much so.

- Henry Cavill. He, unfortunately, wasn't as good as I remembered him being.

- The Jesus symbolism was a bit much.

TL;DR: I was surprised by certain things, but it's still a 6/10.

I thought Ayelet Zurer was great.

If she came off as despondent when the planet was blowing up it's because that's what the story called for.

How do you know that Clark left Lois to freeze to death? Did she die?

Seriously man ...
 
It didn't mean they were buddies though.

Pete was grateful that Clark saved him, but in Smallville high, it was still "beat on mopey Kent" week by nearly all the students, bar him and Lana.

Clark was still alone in his dad's truck when he was pulled out, and Pete was with the other group of kids.
And when the bullies left, the other kids left, Pete stayed back to help Clark up, then joined them.
He extended gratitude and assistance to his saviour, not his friend.
The reason he picked on Clark was because Clark was an easy target, and Clark never allowed himself to strike up friendships because of his secret. Granted that Pete knew about it, but there was nothing to imply that they were good buddies.
Pete's friends were still on the outside that day, while Clark was sitting by himself in the truck, reading his book.
Or if they were friends, it was a secret friendship.

But from Clark's chat with Lois before he is about to join Zod on the ship, he thanks her for befriending and accepting him, which implies that nobody else really did.

But if that's the case...then that must mean Lana and him didn't date :hmm
 
I thought Ayelet Zurer was great.

If she came off as despondent when the planet was blowing up it's because that's what the story called for.

How do you know that Clark left Lois to freeze to death? Did she die?

Seriously man ...

She easily could of if not for the word, 'unrealistic' :p
 
I see this thread has become a camping ground for those who still want to trash the movie.:funny:

The results must hurt. Ouch!

I know. It is amazing. Twenty four pages of mostly people who hated the film bantering back and forth about how much they hated it. The results of the poll must be killing them.


I dunno....if I were a fan of MOS, I would just be happy that most people find the movie excellent. I certainly wouldn't be making unfounded claims about how its haters feel about a poll. That's just being a sore winner. :cwink:
 
hopefuldreamer said:
Yeah that's not a friendship.

And geez, if it was, then him telling all to reporter Lois Lane when she came asking about the bus accident was a terrible betrayal.

Yeah, if he's just gonna spill the beans to a reporter then he probably isn't a great friend at all. Isn't Smallville supposed to be "protective of him", his secret, etc? That's what Goyer said anyway, and yet Lois no problem in getting to the Kent house. Which makes it even more ridiculous that the Government can't figure out who Superman is.

"Swanwick: We are spending tens of millions on drones. We know he's from Kansas. How did you figure out his identity? Speak!

Lois: Oh I just talked to some people in Kansas, they gave me his address and everything. "

:funny:
 
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Reading the last few posts on the last page it's seems more apparently that even if they did execute a better film, there would exist people declaring things like it's supposed to be a wish fulfillment character and such. I don't see this paradigm shift going over without controversy in it's first go round. But that's an old story.

But this idea that superman needs to be a certain way is...lacking imagination imo.
I also find the idea(stated elsewhere) that you can't mix serious thematic story with punching and explosions and over the top etc... short sighted. Then again buffy fan here.



So basically, lets change the fundamental appeal of a character because Marvin likes things different for the sake of being different. And if you actually like the fundamental appeal of Superman and don't need to see it changed, you must be lacking imagination.

The thing is, no matter the style or tone, the fundamental appeal of any character can remain. There's nothing unimaginative about that.
 
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Yeah, if he's just gonna spill the beans to a reporter then he probably isn't a great friend at all. Isn't Smallville supposed to be "protective of him", his secret, etc? That's what Goyer said anyway, and yet Lois no problem in getting to the Kent house. Which makes it even more ridiculous that the Government can't figure out who Superman is.

"Swanwick: We are spending tens of millions on drones. We know he's from Kansas. How did you figure out his identity? Speak!

Lois: Oh I just talked to some people in Kansas, they gave me his address and everything. "

:funny:

:hehe: Yeah exactly. Especially when he gave them his age as well.

There they are saying that the glasses was a hard decision because the disguise is silly... well it's MUCH MORE silly now that they know he grew up on earth, in Kansas and what age he is.
 
Was Pete supposed to lie to Lois? Tell her that Clark Kent doesn't exist? What happens when she finds Clark in the yearbook? Wouldn't her suspicions increase when she saw that Pete and Clark were in the same year?

I mean really ... why would Pete pretend not to know Clark?

He sent Lois to the Kent home when he was asked if he knew Clark Kent, that's called hiding in plain sight.
 
Was Pete supposed to lie to Lois? Tell her that Clark Kent doesn't exist? What happens when she finds Clark in the yearbook? Wouldn't her suspicions increase when she saw that Pete and Clark were in the same year?

I mean really ... why would Pete pretend not to know Clark?

He sent Lois to the Kent home when he was asked if he knew Clark Kent, that's called hiding in plain sight.

She didn't ask if he knew Clark Kent. She asked if she could talk to him about a bus accident that happened when he was a kid.

Since she ends up on Martha's doorstep after this, the inference is that he gave her Clark's name.
 
He was on a tight spot though :hmm
Even if he did give her the slip, she still would have wound up at the Kent's.
 
He was on a tight spot though :hmm
Even if he did give her the slip, she still would have wound up at the Kent's.

Realistically, he should have given her the slip, then called him to warn him someone was asking about the bus crash.

Though personally, i'm still unsure how she would have gotten from the oil rig to the bus crash in the first place. He was using an alias... there was nothing to trace back to Smallville, Kansas.

But I guess that's another one of those aspects of the movie we're just supposed to 'fill in the blanks' to make sense of :rolleyes:
 
Realistically, he should have given her the slip, then called him to warn him someone was asking about the bus crash.

Though personally, i'm still unsure how she would have gotten from the oil rig to the bus crash in the first place. He was using an alias... there was nothing to trace back to Smallville, Kansas.

But I guess that's another one of those aspects of the movie we're just supposed to 'fill in the blanks' to make sense of :rolleyes:

But he probably hasn't seen or spoke to Clark in years...another indication that they weren't close friends ;)
But he still sold Martha down the river!

And Lois was working backwards from each strange case that involved a mysterious stranger.
All she had to do was look back in news archives :o

And if she was able to link things back to Pete, then he must have told people that Clark pulled the bus from out of the water...and he did, he told his mother, so she must have told others...so I wonder...just how did investigations into the crash not show any signs that the bus was moved from its spot out of the water and onto land?

If Rosenbaum Lex was around or the reporter that would always follow Bill Bixby in TIH, they would've caused some **** :o
 
Okay. I know I said I never would, but I decided to suck it up and watch the movie again. Here are my thoughts.

- Clark left Lois to freeze to death after taking the time to cauterize her wound.

Another quibble.

Clark didn't leave her until it was well after dawn, when the rescue helicopter was out looking for her.
 
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