Respect

[redhawk23]

He's talking about mutual respect for one another, not the "hegemony of a dominant group" though. It seems to me that he's just fed up with the petty spitefulness on both sides. And I agree with him.

Its a matter that Christian influence has in the past been so pervasive as to be be assumed and made almost invisible and anytime it is at all challenged Christians tend to claim persecution. Its similar to the whole "Men's Rights Activists" thing.

 

[Xeno]

I don't know of many widespread incidents of people just attacking Christian views and values for the hell of it. It's usually in reaction to intolerant bigotry displayed by Christians that directly impacts other peoples lives (gay marriage, abortion, etc).

I agree with the sentiment that all should be treated equally as long as their beliefs don't negatively impact lives of others

You have made a point that Christians should acknowledge when speaking about the supposed intolerance of some towards their beliefs: In the US only Christians have the power to oppress religious and sexual minorities through legal means and they have exercised that power to the harm of others for centuries. There is absolutely no equivalence between feeling mocked on a message board and having one's civil rights denied or being physically attacked for one's religion, gender identity, sexual orientation or non-belief. This country was founded on the principals of religious freedom and the separation of church and state, but the reality of life here is that only some are free to believe as they wish and in many places church and state have become a monolithic entity.

As a Christian myself, I have always found the general intolerance displayed by some fellow believers abhorrent and against Christ's own teachings. Living one's faith should not entail reaching into the lives of others and attempting to force them to live by the same standard. If you believe that others are living sinful lives, then be content to allow God Himself to deal with them. Personally, I believe that God loves all but he has a different path for each one and it's not for me to question that.

 

[Teelie]

Christian "oppression" in the United States is a joke when you look at the actual oppression going on to other religions. Much like my first post, they'll ignore anyone or anything that points out that until recently they were the ones doing all the oppressing and take anything critical as an attack on themselves.

 

[Warhammer]

As a Christian, I agree that there is no "oppression" compared to other religions in this country. The vast majority of people who believe in a religion in this country believe in Christianity. That's alot. Of course, there are variables like a particular region may be a particular denomination, etc. Yes, there are the fundamentalist Christians out there giving other Christians a bad name like Pat Robertson's dumb ass. However, I'll say one thing. Try being a devout Muslim in this country. The prejudice is still there and that it's even worse if you are of Arabic descent. Imagine as close as ten years ago.

And like xeno000 said, atheism vs. Christianity is one thing. But seriously, look at the disputes between the denominations of Christianity. Why the hell are there over 20 denominations?

 

[Feenix]

Everyone's got their own interpretation. Islam's different sects seem to be the worst in terms of fighting between one another. Yikes.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Christianity doesn't seem that bad with their different denominations these days, but in the past there sure was a lot of blood shed between the Catholics and Protestants, up into the "troubles" in Ireland in the 20th century (but in the end that became more about heritage and representation).

These days the infighting between Sunnis and *****es in Islam is certainly worse.

It's amazing how the worst fighting always occurs between those with the least amount of differences.

EDIT: Are the mods aware one if the largest religious sects in the world gets auto-censored?

 

[TheBat812]

I think one of the things Christians forget is that atheists and non-believers react similarly to ALL religions, mostly monotheistic Western ones - but you perceive it to be worse for you because there are so many more Christians in the US.

There are different kinds of people in the world though, and that goes for atheists as well. People like me are very understanding and not *******s about it. *******s (who definitely do exist) just give people **** for believing in something (which obviously is not a characteristic particular to atheists...).

Gotta say it's weird though when having a conversation with a religious person about their specific religion, they'll try to explain their belief by talking about the certain God creationist theories like in the meme above - but when I bring up that's just the possibility of A God, while their argument is that their religion specifically is the answer, it starts to get a little hard to get anywhere. It's a whole different thing to argue if there is or isn't a god (I'm like Dawkins, so close to atheist, but any intelligent person has to admit that we just don't know everything and it's still a possibility that there is some sort of force out there that could be generally defined as God), but it's another to try to use that to say your religion is the only true one. That's where we kind of find it hard to really take seriously. If you can make it clear that that's why you believe there's a God, and your religion is how you believe it happened, it's impossible for any intelligent atheist to give you **** for it.

But it's pretty consistent across the board - be it Christians, Scientologists, Mormons, Muslims, etc. Pretty much any of the Western monotheistic religions. Eastern religions are both unknown and less definitive and literal about their views, making it very easy to just accept as a belief.

 

[Feenix]

It's amazing how the worst fighting always occurs between those with the least amount of differences.

Ain't that the truth.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Christianity doesn't seem that bad with their different denominations these days, but in the past there sure was a lot of blood shed between the Catholics and Protestants, up into the "troubles" in Ireland in the 20th century (but in the end that became more about heritage and representation).

These days the infighting between Sunnis and *****es in Islam is certainly worse.

It's amazing how the worst fighting always occurs between those with the least amount of differences.

EDIT: Are the mods aware one if the largest religious sects in the world gets auto-censored?

I think there's a few reasons for that.

I read a rather fascinating paper (wish I could remember the name) about how World War II radically altered religion in America. By fighting alongside each other, Protestants and Catholics let go of a lot of old resentments. Same with the Jews.

The weakening of those social divisions also weakened the churches which were pillars of those divided communities. The Catholic church probably got hit the hardest.

Also, the emergence of secularism, has given the most radical elements in the major Christian denominations a new common enemy.

And then came Islamic extremism.

The fact that Catholics (like Rick Santorum) can now pander to Evangelicals in the South by supporting Israel would be inconceivable a mere forty years ago.

 

[Human Torch]

No one is claiming "oppression" here that I'm aware of.What is being appealed to is a simple decency in not mocking the beliefs of Christians with such reckless abandon as can be seen in several recent threads.

 

[charl_huntress]

I do agree with that and I think the mods should be more on top of that. You can say things about Christians that would get you banned if you were saying that about someone Jewish.

 

[JJJ's Ulcer]

I do agree with that and I think the mods should be more on top of that. You can say things about Christians that would get you banned if you were saying that about someone Jewish.

Can you provide some examples? I haven't seen anyone mocking Christians as harshly as you claim.

 

[Human Torch]

I do agree with that and I think the mods should be more on top of that. You can say things about Christians that would get you banned if you were saying that about someone Jewish.

It's something I find common on most message boards.If the demeaning things said to and about Christians were stated to any other belief/race/or whatever,they'd be banned or infracted.

What is usually the case is the loud, vocal atheist majority sets up a predominance that the mods/admins choose not to challenge.Usually because the Christians that stand up to being belittled are few and get shouted down fast by many.So they (mods) tend to deal with the atheist majority with kid gloves.

 

[Xeno]

Can you provide some examples? I haven't seen anyone mocking Christians as harshly as you claim.

The one example I can think of is the guy in the Santa and Jesus thread who keeps bleating that both of them are "imaginary" and anyone who believes in them is a moron. But then there was someone who proclaimed in another thread that his religious beliefs lead him to conclude that homosexuality is a sin. Both are insults backed by belief.

 

[Human Torch]

The one example I can think of is the guy in the Santa and Jesus thread who keeps bleating that both of them are "imaginary" and anyone who believes in them is a moron. But then there was someone who proclaimed in another thread that his religious beliefs lead him to conclude that homosexuality is a sin. Both are insults backed by belief.

There is a difference however,in the fact that Jesus is historically proven to exist.

 

[moviedoors]

 

[Feenix]

No one is claiming "oppression" here that I'm aware of.What is being appealed to is a simple decency in not mocking the beliefs of Christians with such reckless abandon as can be seen in several recent threads.

Two way street. Maybe if you wouldn't call some people's sexual orientation a sin, you wouldn't have posters responding with such disdain to you.

You can't demand respect without showing it first.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

I was about to post something like that.
Respect is a two way street and his also earned.
Reciprocity.

 

[Tanin]

There is a difference however,in the fact that Jesus is historically proven to exist.

Where?

 

[Dr.]

How would someone know who is a Christian unless they spout it off? I've noticed a disturbing trend of the religious running the non-religious out of small towns across the States solely because they don't believe in god (or the "right" god).

Many Christians (and it’s not just Christians) often use their symbols and concepts for “in-group identification.” That is, they’re actively offered as a kind of loyalty test. If you agree with the symbol, this marks you as “in”; if you disagree, you’re part of the out-group and fail the test. But in this dynamic, actual religious beliefs and tenets are almost beside the point; it’s more to do with psychology and sociology.

For example: Every so often there’ll be a kerfuffle about placing the Ten Commandments at a courthouse or government building. Supporters will mention that the US was founded as a “Christian nation” and that enshrining the Ten Commandments honors the divine/Judeo-Christian origins of morality. But ask these supporters to name all 10 commandments and a good number of them (a majority?) will be stymied. Even those who can manage the task don’t actually follow/agree with all 10. (Working on the Sabbath comes to mind. Coveting your neighbor’s wife and/or property is another. And the first 4 are basically declarations of faith [“You shall have no other gods before me”] - nothing to do with moral principles that might be germane to a courthouse or legislature. Moreover, from the same source as the commandments themselves, the consequence for disobedience is clearly specified: capital punishment.)

But as I said, these practical/ethical/theological issues are largely irrelevant. It doesn’t much matter whether folks have memorized - or even agree with - The Ten Commandments; they exist more as a token for in-group bonding. Likewise for advocating “Merry Christmas” over the more inclusive “Happy Holidays.”

So to return to the OP… if religious types practiced their faith as a personal philosophy, rather than a public test of patriotism or loyalty, there’d be much less to complain about - and more respect extended.

Imo.

 

[Monsieur Xavier]

Where?

If I am not mistaken there are several proofs outside of the Bible or the Koran that a person named Jesus existed. I am not an historian so I can't link or refer to serious articles or books but I saw some history documentaries on the subject.

 

[TheBat812]

Yes but proving somebody physically existed does not equal proof that they were a divine figure... The frustration I have with discussing things with religious people is they tend not to understand how correlations truly work in terms of objective proof. They just see it within the terms of their beliefs and world view.

For example, there is much more proof that Mohammed was a real person with stronger direct ties to his religious teachings, but Christians would never entertain the idea that therefore he must have been a real prophet in connection with God the way Muslims believe. Atheists are the the same, except we feel the same way about every religion rather than all but the one we believe in.

As Dawkins said 'we're all atheists to most of the religions of the world. Atheists just go one god further.'

 

[Human Torch]

Where?

The works of Tacitus,Suetonius,Josephus and Pliny the Younger are all contemporaries of the New Testament,and each make reference to Christ/Christianity,validating several events from the New Testament.

 

[Human Torch]

Two way street. Maybe if you wouldn't call some people's sexual orientation a sin, you wouldn't have posters responding with such disdain to you.

You can't demand respect without showing it first.

The problem you're having is that you want Christians to agree with something contrary to what the Bible teaches.There is no disrespect in saying "The Bible claims Homosexuality is a Sin."Because that is Fact.That's not quite the same as calling Christians "Morons" for having their beliefs.That is the epitome of disrespect.


As Christians we're called to speak the Truth in Love.It's a fine line to walk and many take it to the extreme both ways.

Obviously,the people who go around with signs saying "God hates ****" are not acting in love,and are doing a disservice to Christ and Christianity.Jesus loves all,and you're not going to convince people of that if you act in hate.

OTOH,some people take the approach of "Well,Jesus loves you no matter what,so it's all good."And while it's true Jesus loves you,God is not going to allow you to enter His Kingdom if you live your life in constant willful sin.That must be pointed out (hopefully) with gentleness and respect.

 

[SuperFerret]

Every Christian in this thread is the exact reason you're being "oppressed". People say stuff about stuff all the damn time, just deal with it. Being whiny just draws this sort of thing towards yourself.


Also, what's so wrong with disagreeing with the Bible every now and again?