Rings of Power (Book Contradictions Discussion - CAUTION!! SPOILERS)

[InCali]

I decided to create this thread because, well, we probably need it to discuss the ongoing events. I don't know that the other thread is appropriate for that.

So, I watched the first 2 episodes and thought that the soundtrack, score, and visuals were pretty damn good. Of course, you would expect that given the amount of money being poured into this.

I don't really like the idea that people who generally wouldn't rate a series like this are jumping all over it because it doesn't in any way, shape, or form follow the author's writings.

The story itself isn't uninteresting, BUT, let's be real here, this is NOT a story about the 2nd age of Middle Earth that comes within shooting distance of even what we do know about that time period. There's just no debate there. I could go into details, but there are too many to touch on and I'd basically be here all day. Here are just a couple of things.

Just about the only thing they got right was that the trees were destroyed, Morgoth was defeated, and Sauron was his most powerful servant. That's pretty much it.

Finrod did NOT seek out Sauron. He was enlisted because of a debt he owed to the house of Barahir.

That Galadriel sought out Sauron in the 2nd age is complete and utter crap. If she had caught him, as powerful as she was, it would have been the dog catching the car. They also missed the part that she had a big chunk of the 1st age to get her revenge, but it's never mentioned in The Silmarillion. In fact she stayed in Doriath under the tutelage of Melian until its fall. So, they are essentially saying she just decided "Hey, it's the 2nd age, Now I'm going to get revenge for my brother.". For anyone familiar with the Tolkien universe, the story doesn't hold together. If you aren't familiar with it, it's a reasonably entertaining story.

For those people who used the "Well, we don't really KNOW what happened in the 2nd age, so things had to be filled in", this doesn't apply to this series because we do know a fair amount of what the author wrote and none of it is in the series. The characters are completely different from what Tolkien wrote. Gil-Galad, for example, did not have the authority to send people to Valinor and Galadriel, in particular, never got on a ship, jumped off as she was about to re-enter Valinor, swam until she found another (sort of) ship, and wasn't saved by a big, strong man who, presumably helps her get back to Middle Earth.

The bottom line is that this is a reasonably entertaining Tolkien knockoff that has almost nothing, outside of names, to do with the author's writings. It's a complete and utter misrepresentation of Tolkien's world that a lot of people will enjoy.

I'm glad they DON'T have the rights to The Silmarillion because they don't deserve them. If someone does get those rights, I hope they don't completely throw out the storylines the author created and I hope they stay true to the characters. This makes Jackson's LotR look like a faithful adaptation of the books (It wasn't) because at least the characters were somewhat on point. These characters are not.

I'll watch it, but this is not about the 2nd age of Middle Earth as created by Tolkien. It's basically a "What if" story that doesn't in any way follow the book.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

They don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. Just LOTR, The Hobbit and the appendices in ROTK. So it’s not really a matter of “we don’t know what happened in the second age so things have to be filled in,” it’s “they can’t use anything but a very limited part of what JRRT wrote about the second age.”

For example, I think Finrod is only name-checked in the appendices as Galadriel’s brother; all of his actual story is in the Silmarillion…which they can’t use. Galadriel under Melian’s tutelage in Doriath? Not in the appendices.

The problem isn’t them ignoring stuff or making stuff up, it’s that they don’t have access to the official source material, so they have to create their own. And I’m enjoying it so far on that level.

 

[InCali]

They don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. Just LOTR, The Hobbit and the appendices in ROTK. So it’s not really a matter of “we don’t know what happened in the second age so things have to be filled in,” it’s “they can’t use anything but a very limited part of what JRRT wrote about the second age.”

For example, I think Finrod is only name-checked in the appendices as Galadriel’s brother; all of his actual story is in the Silmarillion…which they can’t use. Galadriel under Melian’s tutelage in Doriath? Not in the appendices.

The problem isn’t them ignoring stuff or making stuff up, it’s that they don’t have access to the official source material, so they have to create their own. And I’m enjoying it so far on that level.

I get that they can't use other source material, but the idea that they didn't just make s*** up is flat out wrong. Let me give you some examples. First off, the ring of Barahir IS mentioned in Appendix A so they "could" have used that. Gil-Galad "didn't" have the authority to override the ban, Galadriel never got on a ship to sail to Valinor, she never got stranded at sea, she wasn't hunting for Sauron and it's a good thing she didn't find him, Gil-Galad never sent Elrond to Eregion until a couple years before it was laid waste, Galadriel, if she were going to avenge the death of her brother wouldn't have waited until the 2nd age to do so.....I could go on and on and on, but none of this stuff is in the appendices.....in other words, it's made up.

Don't get me wrong. I'm okay with fan fiction. In fact, I like the idea that Bilbo met Aragorn as a child on his first trip to Rivendell when Aragorn was about 10, but it doesn't directly contradict what is in the books. The events of the first 2 episodes does. There's just no getting around it. It's made up and is not consistent with what IS in the appendices. That's okay and it can still be interesting. It's just not consistent with the work of the author. It's a completely different world than the one he created. They are just using the names of the characters.

 

[Boom]

They don’t have the rights to the Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc. Just LOTR, The Hobbit and the appendices in ROTK. So it’s not really a matter of “we don’t know what happened in the second age so things have to be filled in,” it’s “they can’t use anything but a very limited part of what JRRT wrote about the second age.”

For example, I think Finrod is only name-checked in the appendices as Galadriel’s brother; all of his actual story is in the Silmarillion…which they can’t use. Galadriel under Melian’s tutelage in Doriath? Not in the appendices.

The problem isn’t them ignoring stuff or making stuff up, it’s that they don’t have access to the official source material, so they have to create their own. And I’m enjoying it so far on that level.

Yeah, the reality of this problem is finally starting to hit me. I've spent months lamenting all of the changes and omissions that the showrunners are making, but I've not stopped to consider that a lot of the material I want them to include simply might not be referenced in the Appendices and is therefore off limits. It's been a while since I've read the Appendices proper, so I couldn't recall what specific characters, places and events actually get cited in there.

When they announced this series, I envisioned a multi-season epic that covered thousands of years; each season dealing with a specific period in time but the seasons themselves could literally be hundreds of years apart. This would have not only demonstrated the immortality of the elf characters, but it also would've given them an opportunity to cycle through dozens of human characters and provide audiences with a comprehensive history of Númenor and its royal line. Being able to contrast, in pseudo-real-time, the immortality of the elf characters (who would remain constant across every season) with the mortality of the human characters (who would change from season to season) would have only added more weight to Númenor's inevitable decline, corruption and destruction. Buuuut, if the Appendices doesn't make specific mention of each Númenórean king/queen, or even all of the elf characters, then my vision of this show's potential was dead at the point of Amazon's acquisition of rights.

The Second Age might be light on structured stories and narratives, but it sure as hell has no shortage of characters, places and events. But if the showrunners literally have their hands tied on what they can and can't use, then it is what is is unfortunately. For better or worse, I'm going to have to take the show for what it is. I'm always going to wish it had more, but that's more of a grievance with Amazon not being able to come away from this acquisition with more material.

Elves
Amdír
Amroth
Celeborn
Celebrían
Celebrimbor
Círdan
Elrond
Galadriel
Glorfindel
Oropher
Nimrodel
Thranduil

Men
Almarian
Elatan
Erendis
Hallacar
Malantur
Silmariën
Soronto
Tar-Aldarion
Tar-Ancalimë
Tar-Meneldur
Valandil (1)
Vëantur
Zamîn

Ciryatur
Isilmo
Tar-Ciryatan
Tar-Minastir
Tar-Súrion
Tar-Telperiën

Amandil
Ar-Gimilzôr
Ar-Pharazôn
Gimilkhâd
Inzilbêth
Númendil
Tar-Palantir
Tar-Míriel

Anárion
Aratan
Cemendur
Ciryon
Elendil
Elendur
Isildur
Meneldil
Valandil (2)

Dwarves
Durin III
Durin IV* (not officially a Second Age character, but the argument could be made)
Narvi

Wizards
Ithryn Luin

Villains
Fuinur
Herumor
Khamûl
King of the Mountain Men
Sauron / Annatar
Witch-king
------------------------------------------
Elven realms
Dol Amroth
Edhellond
Eregion
Lindon / Grey Havens
Lothlórien
Rivendell
Woodland Realm

Mannish realms
Arnor
Gondor
Dwimorberg
Númenor
Pelargir (later part of Gondor)
Umbar (later part of Gondor)

Dwarvish realms
Khazad-dûm

Dark realms
Khand
Harad
Mordor
Rhûn

 

[InCali]

Yeah, the reality of this problem is finally starting to hit me. I've spent months lamenting all of the changes and omissions that the showrunners are making, but I've not stopped to consider that a lot of the material I want them to include simply might not be referenced in the Appendices and is therefore off limits. It's been a while since I've read the Appendices proper, so I couldn't recall what specific characters, places and events actually get cited in there.

I envisioned the showrunners being able to develop a multi-season epic that covered thousands of years; each season dealing with a specific period in time but the seasons themselves could literally be hundreds of years apart. Not only demonstrating the immortality of the elf characters, but also giving them an opportunity to cycle through dozens of human characters and provide audiences with a comprehensive history of Númenor and its royal line. Being able to contrast the immortality of the elf characters (who would remain constant across every season) with the mortality of the human characters (who would change from season to season) would have only added more weight to Númenor's inevitable decline, corruption and destruction. Buuuut, if the Appendices only make specific mention of each Númenórean king/queen, or even all of the elf characters, then my vision of this show's potential was dead at the point of Amazon's acquisition of rights.

The Second Age might be light on structured stories and narratives, but it sure as hell has no shortage of characters, places and events. So it seems like for better or worse, I'm going to have to take the show for what it is. But I'm always going to wish it had more, but that's more of a grievance with Amazon not being able to come away from this acquisition with more material.

Yeah. We don't know exactly what they can or can't do, but it would be very odd to me that they can add a 2nd age event that clearly wasn't part of the storyline of even the appendices, but couldn't add something that was part of them.

An example of this was the Ring of Barahir. It is mentioned in appendix A, but no mention of it is made about it being the symbolic reason that lead Finrod to his death. It was just "chasing Sauron". That makes no sense. In appendix B, Gil-Galad sends Elrond to Eregion AFTER the war with Sauron begins and not before. These are maybe minor, but the character of Galadriel herself is completely wrong (though I like the casting choice) and this, IMO, is the major weakness of the show. I don't mind it THAT much, but, like I said, I just consider this outside the universe created by the author, but somewhat entertaining. In my head, Galadriel is not really Galadriel. I think I enjoy the show more that way.

 

[Boom]

Yeah. We don't know exactly what they can or can't do, but it would be very odd to me that they can add a 2nd age event that clearly wasn't part of the storyline of even the appendices, but couldn't add something that was part of them.

An example of this was the Ring of Barahir. It is mentioned in appendix A, but no mention of it is made about it being the symbolic reason that lead Finrod to his death. It was just "chasing Sauron". That makes no sense. In appendix B, Gil-Galad sends Elrond to Eregion AFTER the war with Sauron begins and not before. These are maybe minor, but the character of Galadriel herself is completely wrong (though I like the casting choice) and this, IMO, is the major weakness of the show. I don't mind it THAT much, but, like I said, I just consider this outside the universe created by the author, but somewhat entertaining. In my head, Galadriel is not really Galadriel. I think I enjoy the show more that way.

Impressive recall! Sounds like you're going to be a good resource on this. My books are still boxed up from moving into my house a few months ago. Might be time to dig them out.

I do know that the Appendices makes explicit reference to Morgoth, the "Great Battle," Eärendil and the house of Elros. Unless I'm missing something, if they got mentioned then they are fair game. The showrunners could've gotten that in the prologue. Have no earthly clue why they had to settle for a sky shadow. I guess they didn't want to upstage Sauron (the series' main villain) with someone who was far more terrible.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I get that they can't use other source material, but the idea that they didn't just make s*** up is flat out wrong. Let me give you some examples. First off, the ring of Barahir IS mentioned in Appendix A so they "could" have used that. Gil-Galad "didn't" have the authority to override the ban, Galadriel never got on a ship to sail to Valinor, she never got stranded at sea, she wasn't hunting for Sauron and it's a good thing she didn't find him, Gil-Galad never sent Elrond to Eregion until a couple years before it was laid waste, Galadriel, if she were going to avenge the death of her brother wouldn't have waited until the 2nd age to do so.....I could go on and on and on, but none of this stuff is in the appendices.....in other words, it's made up.

Don't get me wrong. I'm okay with fan fiction. In fact, I like the idea that Bilbo met Aragorn as a child on his first trip to Rivendell when Aragorn was about 10, but it doesn't directly contradict what is in the books. The events of the first 2 episodes does. There's just no getting around it. It's made up and is not consistent with what IS in the appendices. That's okay and it can still be interesting. It's just not consistent with the work of the author. It's a completely different world than the one he created. They are just using the names of the characters.

Right, they’re “making stuff up” because if you filmed everything mentioning Galadriel in the appendices and LOTR you’d have…about 15 minutes of film. And since they can’t use any of the backstory JRRT included in the Silmarillion or wrote later…what exactly do you propose they do? When I say “making things up” is not the problem, this is what I mean. The actual problem is that they can’t use anything beyond the appendices and LOTR.

Speaking of, just for everyone’s reference here is a link to a pdf of the appendices: http://portal.tolkienianos.pt/files/The_LotR_IV.pdf

 

[InCali]

Impressive recall! Sounds like you're going to be a good resource on this. My books are still boxed up from moving into my house a few months ago. Might be time to dig them out.

I do know that the Appendices makes explicit reference to Morgoth, the "Great Battle," Eärendil and the house of Elros. Unless I'm missing something, if they got mentioned then they are fair game. The showrunners could've gotten that in the prologue. Have no earthly clue why they had to settle for a sky shadow. I guess they didn't want to upstage Sauron (the series' main villain) with someone who was far more terrible.

Every, single time there's a Tolkien anything released, the exact same thing goes through my mind; "They should have consulted me". LOL

I get that they spent a billion dollars and are in the business to make money, but I am of the opinion that you can have popular AND accurate. The Tolkien estate has a lot at stake here also. They should really be insisting on a more faithful adaptation. The idea that the greatest of the Nolder, with the possible exception of Feanor, needed to be saved by some guy on a wrecked piece of a ship is....uh.....disconcerting. There was SO much room for some great fan fiction, of which I totally approve of, that doesn't contradict the spirit and letter of the book, but, to this point, they've chosen the path of contradicting the author's characters, chronology, and events.

 

[Boom]

Right, they’re “making stuff up” because if you filmed everything mentioning Galadriel in the appendices and LOTR you’d have…about 15 minutes of film. And since they can’t use any of the backstory JRRT included in the Silmarillion or wrote later…what exactly do you propose they do? When I say “making things up” is not the problem, this is what I mean. The actual problem is that they can’t use anything beyond the appendices and LOTR.

Speaking of, just for everyone’s reference here is a link to a pdf of the appendices: http://portal.tolkienianos.pt/files/The_LotR_IV.pdf

I appreciate the link. I'll need to read these again so I can revise my expectations/wishes to something a bit more realistic.

 

[InCali]

Right, they’re “making stuff up” because if you filmed everything mentioning Galadriel in the appendices and LOTR you’d have…about 15 minutes of film. And since they can’t use any of the backstory JRRT included in the Silmarillion or wrote later…what exactly do you propose they do? When I say “making things up” is not the problem, this is what I mean. The actual problem is that they can’t use anything beyond the appendices and LOTR.

Speaking of, just for everyone’s reference here is a link to a pdf of the appendices: http://portal.tolkienianos.pt/files/The_LotR_IV.pdf

I think the actual problem is that they have changed the fundamental nature of the characters and events. As I've said, I don't mind, and even like, fan fiction as long as it doesn't deviate too much from canon (though what is canon is a bit of a moving target given Tolkien's writings evolved over time). No one MADE them deviate, they made that choice themselves; presumably because they thought it would make a better story for the general audience and translate into $$$. I just disagree with that assessment. I think a powerful, wise Galadriel who uses her resources to defend Middle Earth instead of a soldier who went searching for Sauron makes more sense and makes for a better story. Making up things that don't fit even the available writings is a choice they made, but it can still make a good story; it's just not the Middle Earth the author created. The lack of material they had access to didn't preclude them from accurately depicting the events of said material anymore than the appendices contradict other writings.

They have the Tale of Years (appendix B). Why not use it?

 

[Boom]

Just reading the first few pages of the Appendices and yeah the could have definitely done a more extensive prologue of the First Age's ending/Second Age's beginning. WTF.

 

[InCali]

So as far as the weapon the boy is holding. It kind of looks like

Spoiler

the upper portion of the spear Sauron is holding. Could just be the aesthetic is the same but I think it could be the spear.View attachment 58425

I think the symbolism here is that Sauron is taking form again in Middle Earth. Here's the problem though......he didn't lose his corporeal form at the end of the 1st age. He begged for pardon, was commanded to return to Valinor for judgement, and slinked off. If my guess is true (and I realize it may not be), this would be another unforced error by the showrunners; another instance of deviating from canon without having to do so. In other words, there is nothing that stops them from Sauron being fully formed during all of the 2nd age (until the downfall of Numenor at least).

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I think the actual problem is that they have changed the fundamental nature of the characters and events. As I've said, I don't mind, and even like, fan fiction as long as it doesn't deviate too much from canon (though what is canon is a bit of a moving target given Tolkien's writings evolved over time). No one MADE them deviate, they made that choice themselves; presumably because they thought it would make a better story for the general audience and translate into $$$. I just disagree with that assessment. I think a powerful, wise Galadriel who uses her resources to defend Middle Earth instead of a soldier who went searching for Sauron makes more sense and makes for a better story. Making up things that don't fit even the available writings is a choice they made, but it can still make a good story; it's just not the Middle Earth the author created. The lack of material they had access to didn't preclude them from accurately depicting the events of said material anymore than the appendices contradict other writings.

They have the Tale of Years (appendix B). Why not use it?

Well, I think we are at an impasse here pending a better understanding of the rights issues, because based on what I saw last night, “the lack of material they had access to” does in fact “preclude them from accurately depicting events.” They can’t use scenes or plot points or characterizations or storylines that aren’t reflected in the available material. Someone did indeed make them deviate: the Tolkien Estate, which severely restricted the material they could draw from. That you don’t like what they came up with to replace all that, hey, that’s cool. No one said you had to. But I strongly suspect you are placing the blame on the wrong people.

 

[TheFuture]

As an avid LOTR fan, I tend to take the same approach to this show as I would with WB going nuts with DC; as long as you create a compelling story and characters, you can deviate as much as you want. You paid for it so go for it. If anyone should get abuse it should be the people who cashed in and sold to the highest bidder, not the actors, showrunners or even Amazon.

My issue with Galadriel in these 2 episodes isn't the ripping up of the character so to speak, more to do with it just being....terribly dull so far. As a comparison I thought Disa and Arondir were surprisingly good additions. The Dwarves/Elrond and Arondir/Men plots look like they're going to be the backbone of the show.

 

[InCali]

Well, I think we are at an impasse here pending a better understanding of the rights issues, because based on what I saw last night, “the lack of material they had access to” does in fact “preclude them from accurately depicting events.” They can’t use scenes or plot points or characterizations or storylines that aren’t reflected in the available material. Someone did indeed make them deviate: the Tolkien Estate, which severely restricted the material they could draw from. That you don’t like what they came up with to replace all that, hey, that’s cool. No one said you had to. But I strongly suspect you are placing the blame on the wrong people.

I might be, but here's the thing. IF, for example, Sauron is "taking form", this isn't something that "had" to be done and it's not accurate. Now it may be that he IS fully formed, but I strongly suspect he's not. They certainly didn't "have" to make him an amorphous being given that he wasn't at the beginning of the 2nd age.

Did they have to make Galadriel a soldier rather than a wise ruler who is doing everything she can to make Middle Earth safe?

Did they have to give Gil-Galad the authority to break the ban of the Valar and send her back to Valinor on a ship?

The truth, as you say, is that we don't know the ins and outs of the contract, but I find it hard to believe that Amazon is being forced to make the above decisions.

In any case, I'm not going to freak out. It works for me to look at it as an expensive knockoff that is, so far, mildly entertaining.

As an avid LOTR fan, I tend to take the same approach to this show as I would with WB going nuts with DC; as long as you create a compelling story and characters, you can deviate as much as you want. You paid for it so go for it. If anyone should get abuse it should be the people who cashed in and sold to the highest bidder, not the actors, showrunners or even Amazon.

My issue with Galadriel in these 2 episodes isn't the ripping up of the character so to speak, more to do with it just being....terribly dull so far. As a comparison I thought Disa and Arondir were surprisingly good additions. The Dwarves/Elrond and Arondir/Men plots look like they're going to be the backbone of the show.

I meant to mention this. I really liked Arondir and don't care about the color of his skin. Disa was cool too. I like the Galadriel casting choice, but her role is inaccurate and typecast (her being saved by the mariner) with the "strong woman" touch. She was known as among the wisest of the Eldar and certainly isn't portrayed that way.

 

[TheVileOne]

The fact that they can only adapt material from the such limited source material is problematic.

I'm not Jeff Bezos, but I would never have green-lit this show or made this deal unless Similarillion and everything else was included.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

I might be, but here's the thing. IF, for example, Sauron is "taking form", this isn't something that "had" to be done and it's not accurate. Now it may be that he IS fully formed, but I strongly suspect he's not. They certainly didn't "have" to make him an amorphous being given that he wasn't at the beginning of the 2nd age.

Did they have to make Galadriel a soldier rather than a wise ruler who is doing everything she can to make Middle Earth safe?

Did they have to give Gil-Galad the authority to break the ban of the Valar and send her back to Valinor on a ship?

The truth, as you say, is that we don't know the ins and outs of the contract, but I find it hard to believe that Amazon is being forced to make the above decisions.

In any case, I'm not going to freak out. It works for me to look at it as an expensive knockoff that is, so far, mildly entertaining.




I meant to mention this. I really liked Arondir and don't care about the color of his skin. Disa was cool too. I like the Galadriel casting choice, but her role is inaccurate and typecast (her being saved by the mariner) with the "strong woman" touch. She was known as among the wisest of the Eldar and certainly isn't portrayed that way.

My impression of Sauron so far is as an actual physical being who is on the run/hiding/scheming. I mean, Galadriel wants to literally run him through with a sword, so… But neither option really bothers me.

I don’t see any contradiction between Galadriel being more of a soldier now and a wise leader later. It’s very similar to the change made to movie Aragorn versus book Aragorn in order to show some character growth. We’ll have to see how it pans out.

The Gil-Galad thing was stupid and the whole elf boat sequence looked cheap and silly. It was clearly just a plot device to get Galadriel to Numenor and not a particularly good one. I did like Halbrand and her interactions with him, so there was something good to come out of that part I guess.

 

[Doctor Jones]

The fact that they can only adapt material from the such limited source material is problematic.

I'm not Jeff Bezos, but I would never have green-lit this show or made this deal unless Similarillion and everything else was included.

Since Bezos is a fan, if he asks for it, they're not going to say no, including I think Bezos is too scattered brained to delineate between what they could buy versus buying something.

 

[Boom]

I'm continuously floored by Amazon shelling out so much money for so little material. I guess they figure the value was in the IP itself.

 

[TheVileOne]

Everyone wants the next Game of Thrones.

 

[emc5466]

We all agree the guy in the raft is Sauron, right?

 

[InCali]

The fact that they can only adapt material from the such limited source material is problematic.

I'm not Jeff Bezos, but I would never have green-lit this show or made this deal unless Similarillion and everything else was included.

They could do better with what they have, but that doesn't make what you're saying untrue. I know the appendices quite well and the LotR like the back of my hand.

How about this? After the War of Wrath, her and Celeborn live in Lindon for a short period of time where she consults with Gil-Galad and Elrond about the future ordering of Middle Earth, moves to Eregion and befriends Celebrimbor. Galadriel sends out elves, led by Celeborn, to see if there is any trace of Sauron (where many adventures may be written). Sauron begins to stir and Galadriel senses this. Celeborn and the other elves of Eregion step up their search and find traces of his stirring. In fair guise, Sauron ingratiates himself to Celebrimbor using his desire to create great works. Galadriel warns him, but Celebrimbor doesn't listen. Galadriel and Celeborn leave and go over the mountain to the strategic position of Lorien where they set up a kingdom to contest Sauron's stronghold of Mordor. The elven rings are created. Sauron creates the one and demands their return. Gil-Galad, seeing the danger, sends Elrond to Eregion and war breaks out. Celebrimbor gives Vilya and Narya to Elrond to put in the safekeeping of Gil-Galad and Cirdan while giving Galadriel, whom he loves, Nenya. Eregion overrun, Celebrimbor slain, and Lindon is beseiged, Rivendell is founded, and the Numenoreans (who need a parallel story) come to its rescue. Sauron is defeated and the Numenoreans establish a force in the south to, along with Lorien, keep an eye on Sauron. This all leads up to the Last Alliance and the building of Minas Tirith/Ithil hundreds of years down the road.

Now, IMO, that's a very interesting story that basically follows canon and leaves a LOT of room for some really cool fan fiction AND it's all right there in the appendices.

No need to thank me. LOL

 

[InCali]

My impression of Sauron so far is as an actual physical being who is on the run/hiding/scheming. I mean, Galadriel wants to literally run him through with a sword, so… But neither option really bothers me.

I don’t see any contradiction between Galadriel being more of a soldier now and a wise leader later. It’s very similar to the change made to movie Aragorn versus book Aragorn in order to show some character growth. We’ll have to see how it pans out.

The Gil-Galad thing was stupid and the whole elf boat sequence looked cheap and silly. It was clearly just a plot device to get Galadriel to Numenor and not a particularly good one. I did like Halbrand and her interactions with him, so there was something good to come out of that part I guess.

While they probably can't use the fact that Galadriel was instructed by Melian and learned great wisdom, it DID happen in the 1st Age. Given that, it makes no sense that Galadriel wants to go out and physically confront Sauron as he is probably the equal of Melian who has much greater power than Galadriel. She would know that her confronting Sauron personally would be a hopeless task and similar to the one she gave up on; specifically defeating Morgoth, while greater than Sauron, by the elven forces. She would know that cause to be beyond her and would take other approaches.

They are in no way unable to keep to canon in the basic storylines I've laid out. They just chose otherwise; or so it seems to me.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

They are in no way unable to keep to canon in the basic storylines I've laid out. They just chose otherwise; or so it seems to me.

Perhaps, perhaps not. As you can tell it’s a slow day so I had a chance to google around a bit and the rights issues in play appear to be a mess. Not only do we have Amazon and the Tolkien Estate involved, but Saul Zaentz Co. is still in the mix as well. Zaentz appears to still have the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR, but Amazon was able to do an end run around them because their deal doesn’t cover a tv series with more than 8 episodes. I’m quite sure Zaentz isn’t happy about that. More, Zaentz also has a rights deal involving the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales that gives them matching rights should the Estate ever decide to sell those rights. So they could swoop in and match any offer. Thus I’d imagine the Estate has to be extremely careful to keep Sil/UT material out of the mix lest they get sued by Zaentz. Given the amount of money involved, I’m sure that there are already lawyers calling Zaentz claiming they can make a case based on some element in the Amazon show resembling some element in UT, for example. I’m hoping to keep poking around and see if I can find more clarification, but like I said this is a mess.

 

[InCali]

Perhaps, perhaps not. As you can tell it’s a slow day so I had a chance to google around a bit and the rights issues in play appear to be a mess. Not only do we have Amazon and the Tolkien Estate involved, but Saul Zaentz Co. is still in the mix as well. Zaentz appears to still have the rights to The Hobbit and LOTR, but Amazon was able to do an end run around them because their deal doesn’t cover a tv series with more than 8 episodes. I’m quite sure Zaentz isn’t happy about that. More, Zaentz also has a rights deal involving the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales that gives them matching rights should the Estate ever decide to sell those rights. So they could swoop in and match any offer. Thus I’d imagine the Estate has to be extremely careful to keep Sil/UT material out of the mix lest they get sued by Zaentz. Given the amount of money involved, I’m sure that there are already lawyers calling Zaentz claiming they can make a case based on some element in the Amazon show resembling some element in UT, for example. I’m hoping to keep poking around and see if I can find more clarification, but like I said this is a mess.

That’s awesome. Thanks for the info. I’m sure it’s a lot more complicated than any of us can even imagine. That being said, everything that I laid out is from appendix A or B in the back of the return of the King. I don’t have exact dates memorized, but I do know the basic layout is in there.

another reason I know, or at least I think, thar they’re not that interested in being true to the story is that they have hobbits. That’s a clear sign of pandering to the public. I understand why because it’s all about the $$$ but it’s still there.