Rings of Power (Book Contradictions Discussion - CAUTION!! SPOILERS)

[Boom]

At the same time, Tolkien even wrote that Olorin came to Middle Earth for a brief period of time long before he came as Gandalf, though he doesn’t specify exactly when or why.

Could you clarify where you saw this? This is news to me.

Tolkien once considered the Istari (under Melian) going to Middle-earth before the First Age to protect the elves in their Great Journey from Cuiviénen to Valinor, but as far as I know this was never canonized. It's definitely not noted in the Appendices.

As far as the Appendices are concerned, Gandalf arrives in 1000 T.A. (along with the four) and it's the first time he steps foot in ME.

 

[Boom]

And just so we are clear, gang. I genuinely did have a good time with the first two episodes. It's good to have Middle-earth stories again.

But for better or worse, this show is going to provide an outlet for my Tolkien fanaticism.

 

[Persona]

Odd that people from the south would be sailing all the way north of the Sundering Seas near Lindon.

Yeah, whole thing is a bit weird, though I guess I am intrigued about whatever's going on with Halbrand and how that might connect to the Southlands story. Could he be Theo's father?

 

[Boom]

Also, one thing we haven't talked about.

Since it didn't show up in the First Age prologue, the balrog has to be Durin's Bane. Which means they must have moved up its awakening from the 3rd Age to the 2nd Age. Instead of being the Bane of Durin VI, it must be Durin III or Durin IV. Not sure what big picture ramifications such a change could have.

Fun fact: the dwarves believe that each successive Durin is a reincarnation of Durin the Deathless. Or literally, Durin the Deathless' soul re-enters his body and goes through another life cycle. It's not a matter of naming convention.

There shouldn't be two Durins at the same time.

 

[InCali]

I like no I love it for what it is: a visual stunning and exciting attempt to connect the PJ version with a historic background.
I‘ve only read the LotR and hobbit, so it doesn’t bother me, that it ain’t tolkien accurate.
For me it is everything I could’ve dreamed of. I‘ve never seen a series that cinematic

And yeah, that shipwrecked guy is Sauron. He‘s from the Southlands (Mordor?), where that boy found the blade

Like I've said, I find it somewhat interesting, but am able to divorce myself from what I'd LIKE to see. Some of the cinematography is terrific, but it simply is NOT Tolkien. If someone wanted to do a real adaptation of his work, I could completely remove this and make it background noise from some other show.

The fact is they COULD have done an adaptation from the appendices and both @DKDetective and I have laid out how. I'm not SURE they could have had Sauron suing for mercy (don't think it's in the appendices and don't know what they can and can't do contractually), but they could certainly have said he fled.

Let's face it. They CHOSE to not adapt the work of the Akallabeth.

But that is not her character. As a young elf, she was already wise and temperate. She was one of the voices of reason among the Noldor when Morgoth stole the Silmarils and advised against the blood feud and the kinslaying. Then she spent the First Age learning wisdom from a Maia. Her brother was not killed by Sauron. He gave his life saving Beren from the great Wolf. The idea of Galadriel going on some sort of centuries long quest for vengeance is completely the opposite of her character as portrayed both before and after the Second Age.

Going beyond accuracy to Tolkien, it is lazy, cliche writing. It is incredibly regressive to suggest that every great heroine has to be some badass warrior with a chip on their shoulder. There are other kinds of strength and courage.

I get that they need some form of arc for these characters and a more linear central narrative to make Tolkien's Tale of Years work as a drama, but fundamentally changing their existing characters who people love into cliche stereotypes ain't it.

The connecting element of these stories is Sauron. That is actually how the Akallabeth and other Tolkien stories from this era are structured. They should have done something like Hannibal or Breaking Bad and made Sauron the protagonist.

Start the series with the fall of Morgoth and Sauron pleading for mercy and being ordered to go to Valinor for judgment. Show him instead flee and decide to become the master of middle-earth himself. Show him playing the long con with Celebrimbor, founding Mordor, corrupting the Numenoreans, etc. That is the basis for a compelling drama that actually uses what Tolkien wrote.

100% correct WRT Galadriel, but for people not familiar with the history, they don't seem to get it. While Tolkien didn't spend a ton of time, her character is well known. (1st age) Strong willed and proud, mighty in arms (Aqualonde, after the crossing of the Helcaraxe, and possibly the Fall of Doriath), instructed by Melian and wise in lore and foresight (even before she went to Doriath, she foresaw that the battle against Morgoth by the elven hosts and men was doomed. Her power, even in the 1st age, was not in arms (though she could be a bad ass at need), but in protection, preservation, and wisdom. IF the writers were really trying to "connect" to even PJs trilogy, they really, really missed the boat.

I don't have a problem with people liking it and I'm not the least bit interested in review bombing it, but it simply is NOT anything close to Tolkien's writings.

 

[Persona]

Could you clarify where you saw this? This is news to me.

Tolkien once considered the Istari (under Melian) going to Middle-earth before the First Age to protect the elves in their Great Journey from Cuiviénen to Valinor, but as far as I know this was never canonized. It's definitely not noted in the Appendices.

As far as the Appendices are concerned, Gandalf arrives in 1000 T.A. (along with the four) and it's the first time he steps foot in ME.

So yeah, kind of sketchy. And you're right, the appendices only really talk about the Istari in terms of the Third Age. But we do know from some of his other writing that some of them like the blue wizards came in the 2nd Age, so the question is what can the show do?

The Stranger could also be Sauron, for all we know.

 

[InCali]

They're not mentioned in the Appendices. I checked.

The Istari are, but the Blue Wizards specifically are not. Not sure if they can use them because I don't know the terms of the agreement.

 

[InCali]

The Blue Wizards are fair game. There's talk of them being involved in the second age.

No. There isn't.......tell me where. I'm quite familiar with the appendices. Hey folks, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "well they only have access to the appendices" and then turn around and say "well this was mentioned in The History of Middle Earth" or some other book.

 

[Boom]

View attachment 58447

So yeah, kind of sketchy. And you're right, the appendices only really talk about the Istari in terms of the Third Age. But we do know from some of his other writing that some of them like the blue wizards came in the 2nd Age, so the question is what can the show do?

The Stranger could also be Sauron, for all we know.

But I don't think they can utilize those others writings. That's the problem. No mention was made of them having rights to Tolkien's letters or unfinished material.

If they are limited to just the Appendices, all that is said of the Istari is that they arrived in Middle-earth in the Third Age to help Men contend against Sauron, and the greatest of the Order were Saruman and Gandalf. Heck, I don't even think the Appendices mentions that there were five of them. That was a casual mention in the book itself. Do they even have the rights to the LotR story?

 

[InCali]

I just reread the appendices and everything they have shown so far connects directly to them.

Oh, you mean like Gil-Galad overriding The Ban of the Valar? Like him sending Elrond to Khazad-dum prior to the War of Elves and Sauron? Like Galadriel jumping ship on the coasts of Valinor and trying to swim back to Middle Earth? Like her suddenly ignoring all of her training from Melian and hunting Sauron after having years and years and years in the 1st age to leave Doriath do so if that was her intent?

The timelines are all screwed up and the characters/events as written by Tolkien are just flat wrong. Sauron begins to stir in 500 of the SA and 1000+ years later, Elrond is sent by Gil-Galad after Sauron's force invade Eriador. Eregion wasn't even founded until 750 SA and the Numenoreans appeared off the coasts prior to that. Sorry, this just isn't Tolkien's work; no matter what the "whys" are.

Is it possible the writers "can't" give an accurate depiction of the events of the 2nd age? Maybe; as we've both agreed, we don't know the terms of the contract, but that's outside this particular point. Whether they can or can't, these are not the characters and events as laid out by the author.

 

[InCali]

View attachment 58447

So yeah, kind of sketchy. And you're right, the appendices only really talk about the Istari in terms of the Third Age. But we do know from some of his other writing that some of them like the blue wizards came in the 2nd Age, so the question is what can the show do?

The Stranger could also be Sauron, for all we know.

Right, but, again, we can't have it both ways. Either they are confined to the appendices, trilogy, The Hobbit, or not. If it's the former, the Istari first appeared about 1000 TA, if it's the latter, this is even a bigger mess than it is (WRT being based on Tolkien's writings and not whether or not people enjoy the show).

 

[InCali]

BTW, I love this discussion because I think it's helping to clarify what this show is and is not.

Special shout out to the heads of the other 2 houses of the Edain ( @Boom and @DKDetective )

 

[Persona]

Like I've said, I find it somewhat interesting, but am able to divorce myself from what I'd LIKE to see. Some of the cinematography is terrific, but it simply is NOT Tolkien. If someone wanted to do a real adaptation of his work, I could completely remove this and make it background noise from some other show.

The fact is they COULD have done an adaptation from the appendices and both @DKDetective and I have laid out how. I'm not SURE they could have had Sauron suing for mercy (don't think it's in the appendices and don't know what they can and can't do contractually), but they could certainly have said he fled.

Let's face it. They CHOSE to not adapt the work of the Akallabeth.


100% correct WRT Galadriel, but for people not familiar with the history, they don't seem to get it. While Tolkien didn't spend a ton of time, her character is well known. (1st age) Strong willed and proud, mighty in arms (Aqualonde, after the crossing of the Helcaraxe, and possibly the Fall of Doriath), instructed by Melian and wise in lore and foresight (even before she went to Doriath, she foresaw that the battle against Morgoth by the elven hosts and men was doomed. Her power, even in the 1st age, was not in arms (though she could be a bad ass at need), but in protection, preservation, and wisdom. IF the writers were really trying to "connect" to even PJs trilogy, they really, really missed the boat.

I don't have a problem with people liking it and I'm not the least bit interested in review bombing it, but it simply is NOT anything close to Tolkien's writings.

You and I have gone back and forth on this. I get why you don't think there is room for this interpretation. I think there is. We both have different texts to support our viewpoints. I don't necessarily love everything they have done with this version of Galadriel, but in general I get it and absolutely can see how this is based on various things that Tolkien wrote about her--but, yes, leaning harder on some things than others, for sure, and insinuating a vengeance angle that Tolkien never got into, though this is easily imagined of someone that Tolkien wrote was "strong, proud, and self-willed" and very close to Finrod.

Most importantly, I do think it is a good starting point for her character arc in the show. Tolkien wrote that Galadriel was a commander in the 2nd Age and vigilant against Sauron. I agree with you, Galadriel learns to do this more through preservation and protection than through aggression. I am hopeful the show will show us that growth in her character and, if so, I understand why they don't simply start off with her being like that. They are giving us that duality that Tolkien wrote, the aspects that are kin to Feanor but hopefully as Galadriel learns to let go of her pain and live with her trauma, we get more and more of the kind and wise side of her. You figure she should already be much farther along in that arc at this point in time and I get that, totally, but for me the show is basically adjusting a slider within a spectrum that Tolkien already established so that they can give Galadriel a pronounced arc that occurs within the 2nd Age, bridging First Age Noldor Galadriel and all that she suffered to the Third Age Galadriel we know well.

And, again, the showrunners really paid attention to that moment in Fellowship of the Ring where she is tempted by the Ring. They paid attention when Tolkien wrote in Letter 320 how at the end of the First Age Galadriel "proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return" to Valinor. They've found a compelling dramatic angle on Galadriel that is rooted in some of what Tolkien wrote about her. Yeah, even though Tolkien described her as a great warrior and athlete in the First Age, it probably would be more lore accurate to show her more as a general and co-leader with Celeborn in the 2nd Age. Being that this is TV, I do understand them starting her off as more of a hands-on lone wolf, though, especially as they are trying to show the contrast of her pain and drive forward in a context where there is a presumed peace and when evil supposedly is vanquished or kept in check (BTW, I think it was kind of brilliant to have Sylvan Elves as these overseers of men in the South because of the past situation with Morgoth).

So, yeah, listen, I won't argue that you're not right about what would be closer to how Tolkien seemed to envision Galadriel's character at this point in time. You are right. I just have to speak up when the statements go so far as to say that what this show is doing has nothing to do with anything that Tolkien wrote. I don't see it that way. Because he wrote a lot of different, disconnected things about these characters and this Age, and there certifiably are some things that he wrote that connect with what the show has chosen to do.

 

[Boom]

Perhaps a stupid observation but I am especially pleased with the scaling of the various races. The harfoots genuinely look tiny, and the proportions of the dwarves are just right. Much more so than in the films.

 

[Persona]

Right, but, again, we can't have it both ways. Either they are confined to the appendices, trilogy, The Hobbit, or not. If it's the former, the Istari first appeared about 1000 TA, if it's the latter, this is even a bigger mess than it is (WRT being based on Tolkien's writings and not whether or not people enjoy the show).

Oh, I agree. It is confusing to try to look at it from a rights perspective. It's one of those things where if I had only read the appendices I'd be like "hey wait, he can't be an Istari." But in other texts from Tolkien he says they came in both the First and Second Ages. So maybe the show got extra permission to have an Istari because they do have rights to the idea of an Istari outside of Gandalf and the Tolkien estate didn't veto it because they know it doesn't contradict other things that Grandaddy Tolkien wrote. I don't know!

As far as the general audience goes, if it is an Istari they'll just be like "cool, another wizard!" and this whole conversation would be pointless to them, haha.

From some things that the showrunners have said, I do think it has to be a Maiar. Whether that be one of the known Istari, Sauron, or another Maiar altogether, we will see. But definitely Maiar, I think.

 

[Persona]

Perhaps a stupid observation but I am especially pleased with the scaling of the various races. The harfoots genuinely look tiny, and the proportions of the dwarves are just right. Much more so than in the films.

Yeah, that has worked really well. Some of the digital effects scaling hasn't been seamless (the elevator shot) but I like what they've gone for in terms of their goals with it.

Anyone who has watched the LotR making of material knows the insane amounts of effort and attention to detail and planning that went into making those movies--because of the scope, and all the very different settings, and the different character sizes, and on and on and on. It's crazy that a TV show is attempting something on the same plane. Probably not possible without advancements in production and post-production and the record budget this thing has, but still.

 

[InCali]

You and I have gone back and forth on this. I get why you don't think there is room for this interpretation. I think there is. We both have different texts to support our viewpoints. I don't necessarily love everything they have done with this version of Galadriel, but in general I get it and absolutely can see how this is based on various things that Tolkien wrote about her--but, yes, leaning harder on some things than others, for sure, and insinuating a vengeance angle that Tolkien never got into, though this is easily imagined of someone that Tolkien wrote was "strong, proud, and self-willed" and very close to Finrod.

Most importantly, I do think it is a good starting point for her character arc in the show. Tolkien wrote that Galadriel was a commander in the 2nd Age and vigilant against Sauron. I agree with you, Galadriel learns to do this more through preservation and protection than through aggression. I am hopeful the show will show us that growth in her character and, if so, I understand why they don't simply start off with her being like that. They are giving us that duality that Tolkien wrote, the aspects that are kin to Feanor but hopefully as Galadriel learns to let go of her pain and live with her trauma, we get more and more of the kind and wise side of her. You figure she should already be much farther along in that arc at this point in time and I get that, totally, but for me the show is basically adjusting a slider within a spectrum that Tolkien already established so that they can give Galadriel a pronounced arc that occurs within the 2nd Age, bridging First Age Noldor Galadriel and all that she suffered to the Third Age Galadriel we know well.

And, again, the showrunners really paid attention to that moment in Fellowship of the Ring where she is tempted by the Ring. They paid attention when Tolkien wrote in Letter 320 how at the end of the First Age Galadriel "proudly refused forgiveness or permission to return" to Valinor. They've found a compelling dramatic angle on Galadriel that is rooted in some of what Tolkien wrote about her. Yeah, even though Tolkien described her as a great warrior and athlete in the First Age, it probably would be more lore accurate to show her more as a general and co-leader with Celeborn in the 2nd Age. Being that this is TV, I do understand them starting her off as more of a hands-on lone wolf, though, especially as they are trying to show the contrast of her pain and drive forward in a context where there is a presumed peace and when evil supposedly is vanquished or kept in check (BTW, I think it was kind of brilliant to have Sylvan Elves as these overseers of men in the South because of the past situation with Morgoth).

So, yeah, listen, I won't argue that you're not right about what would be closer to how Tolkien seemed to envision Galadriel's character at this point in time. You are right. I just have to speak up when the statements go so far as to say that what this show is doing has nothing to do with anything that Tolkien wrote. I don't see it that way. Because he wrote a lot of different, disconnected things about these characters and this Age, and there certifiably are some things that he wrote that connect with what the show has chosen to do.

Cool. It's not that I think it has nothing to do with with Tolkien's works. If I said that, it was an overstatement. While Galadriel was proud and wanted a realm of her own, her development by the end of the 1st age was pretty clear. As I've also said, I'm fine with fan fiction and, especially in the 2nd age, there is absolutely a need for it. What they've done, for me anyway, doesn't really comport with the basics of what is laid out in the 2nd age timelines and events (and some characters). The, what I consider the misrepresentation of Galadriel, is a major flaw because it is SO different than what we know. I can see changes that I might not agree with in Gil-Galad and Elrond because their characters in that time are not fleshed out to the extent that Galadriel's is. Those are opinions rather than something laid out by the author (legitimate fan fiction IMO). I see Gil-Galad, for example, as a mighty general who fights on the front lines and is a warrior along the lines of Fingon and Fingolfin. I see Elrond as someone who is NOT the wise counselor of the late 2nd and 3rd ages and who is still developing into his later role, BUT these are very different than the change in Galadriel's character because Tolkien wasn't explicit about the characters of that time.

In any case, I can enjoy it and not put it in the Tolkien universe. Basically, I can think "Well, it's rather interesting, but it's not the story the author told". We've only seen 2 episodes so my opinions about the rest of it are currently in hibernation.

 

[Persona]

Oh, you mean like Gil-Galad overriding The Ban of the Valar?

Ban was already lifted. I take it more as Gil-Galad offering the transportation/means (basically him and Elrond are pushing her out when she doesn't want to go). Obviously the way it is shown in the show, you could take it like he granted her permission to return, it's pretty nebulous how they did that (probably intentionally, they have to dance around so much with how they wrote this show). Obviously Galadriel literally jumping ship is the show's play on what Tolkien wrote in Letter 320.

So much of the rest of what you're saying boils down to the timeline compression and rearrangement. Like I said before, as soon as that was confirmed, I knew that meant this show would be completely severed from Tolkien's work for some of the fans. That's fine and certainly a valid perspective. For me, though, there is still a potential tether to the major events and themes and characters that Tolkien wrote about this Age. There is still the possibility to convey some of his intent and spirit and ideas. But that's always going to be a subjective thing.

 

[Persona]

Cool. It's not that I think it has nothing to do with with Tolkien's works. If I said that, it was an overstatement. While Galadriel was proud and wanted a realm of her own, her development by the end of the 1st age was pretty clear. As I've also said, I'm fine with fan fiction and, especially in the 2nd age, there is absolutely a need for it. What they've done, for me anyway, doesn't really comport with the basics of what is laid out in the 2nd age timelines and events (and some characters). The, what I consider the misrepresentation of Galadriel, is a major flaw because it is SO different than what we know. I can see changes that I might not agree with in Gil-Galad and Elrond because their characters in that time are not fleshed out to the extent that Galadriel's is. Those are opinions rather than something laid out by the author (legitimate fan fiction IMO). I see Gil-Galad, for example, as a mighty general who fights on the front lines and is a warrior along the lines of Fingon and Fingolfin. I see Elrond as someone who is NOT the wise counselor of the late 2nd and 3rd ages and who is still developing into his later role, BUT these are very different than the change in Galadriel's character because Tolkien wasn't explicit about the characters of that time.

In any case, I can enjoy it and not put it in the Tolkien universe. Basically, I can think "Well, it's rather interesting, but it's not the story the author told". We've only seen 2 episodes so my opinions about the rest of it are currently in hibernation.

And I applaud you. You have a good perspective on this.

 

[InCali]

Ban was already lifted. I take it more as Gil-Galad offering the transportation/means (basically him and Elrond are pushing her out when she doesn't want to go). Obviously the way it is shown in the show, you could take it like he granted her permission to return, it's pretty nebulous how they did that (probably intentionally, they have to dance around so much with how they wrote this show). Obviously Galadriel literally jumping ship is the show's play on what Tolkien wrote in Letter 320.

So much of the rest of what you're saying boils down to the timeline compression and rearrangement. Like I said before, as soon as that was confirmed, I knew that meant this show would be completely severed from Tolkien's work for some of the fans. That's fine and certainly a valid perspective. For me, though, there is still a potential tether to the major events and themes and characters that Tolkien wrote about this Age. There is still the possibility to convey some of his intent and spirit and ideas. But that's always going to be a subjective thing.

That's 100% true and was a misstatement by me from the perspective of what "REALLY happened" LOL. In the show, he was "allowing" it for their valor (basically, I think he wanted to get rid of her; both of which fly in the face of what we know about the books). In other words, he was allowing something which was beyond his authority from the perspective of the book. Yet another misrepresentation I hadn't completely considered.

WRT Tolkien's letters, if people think this is fair game, so are my takes from The Silmarillioni.

 

[henzINNIT]

Yup, Alatar especially, and if it is him then it's pretty easy to see where this is going because Tolkien actually wrote about Alatar's mission in the 2nd Age and it lines right up with the locations in the show and two of the storylines.

It certainly makes sense within the timeline of the show. As you mentioned later, god knows what the rights situation allows and prohibits.

They're not mentioned in the Appendices. I checked.

So presumably they're off the table? This is a minefield for fans, I can't imagine trying to actually write this show.

No. There isn't.......tell me where. I'm quite familiar with the appendices. Hey folks, you can't have it both ways. You can't say "well they only have access to the appendices" and then turn around and say "well this was mentioned in The History of Middle Earth" or some other book.

What point are you trying to make here? You claimed all 5 wizards arrived in the third age and I simply disputed it, based on the author's own words, as I'm sure you know well. It wasn't in a conversation about specific sources, I wasn't trying to 'have it both ways', it was my first post in this thread.

It's going to be interesting to see how Rings walks this ridiculous tightrope. I wish amazon found a way to get all the required rights. It is a big enough challenge 'filling the blanks' without having to write around events you can't touch.

 

[DKDetective]

Odd that people from the south would be sailing all the way north of the Sundering Seas near Lindon.

Or so close to the Undying Lands that they would run into Galadriel trying to swim back.

 

[Sithborg]

But that is not her character. As a young elf, she was already wise and temperate. She was one of the voices of reason among the Noldor when Morgoth stole the Silmarils and advised against the blood feud and the kinslaying. Then she spent the First Age learning wisdom from a Maia. Her brother was not killed by Sauron. He gave his life saving Beren from the great Wolf. The idea of Galadriel going on some sort of centuries long quest for vengeance is completely the opposite of her character as portrayed both before and after the Second Age.

Going beyond accuracy to Tolkien, it is lazy, cliche writing. It is incredibly regressive to suggest that every great heroine has to be some badass warrior with a chip on their shoulder. There are other kinds of strength and courage.

But she isn't portrayed as the cliche, though. While they do show that she is "right" in the terms of Sauron and evil forces still being around, they still make it very clear that she is going about it the wrong way. And I think the framing of her state of mind is very important to work against the normal cliche.

Is it what Tokien wrote, I will take you word that it isn't. But that is a separate conversation.

Oh, you mean like Gil-Galad overriding The Ban of the Valar? Like him sending Elrond to Khazad-dum prior to the War of Elves and Sauron? Like Galadriel jumping ship on the coasts of Valinor and trying to swim back to Middle Earth? Like her suddenly ignoring all of her training from Melian and hunting Sauron after having years and years and years in the 1st age to leave Doriath do so if that was her intent?

The timelines are all screwed up and the characters/events as written by Tolkien are just flat wrong. Sauron begins to stir in 500 of the SA and 1000+ years later, Elrond is sent by Gil-Galad after Sauron's force invade Eriador. Eregion wasn't even founded until 750 SA and the Numenoreans appeared off the coasts prior to that. Sorry, this just isn't Tolkien's work; no matter what the "whys" are.

Is it possible the writers "can't" give an accurate depiction of the events of the 2nd age? Maybe; as we've both agreed, we don't know the terms of the contract, but that's outside this particular point. Whether they can or can't, these are not the characters and events as laid out by the author.

Which begs the question, when is Middle Earth allowed to grow beyond Tolkien? Dracula has grown beyond Stoker. Frankenstein grown beyond Shelly. Romeo & Juliet grown beyond Shakespeare. Hell, even Star Wars and Star Trek has grown beyond Lucas and Roddenberry.

It was never going to be Tolkien's work. The films aren't Tolkien's work, they are Tolkien's work through the eyes of Jackson. And if you got what you wanted, it is Tolkien's works through your eyes. And I am at the point in my fandom life, where I am all for letting other voices in. I will try to enjoy this Tolkien's guys little Ring Cycle fanfic.

 

[InCali]

It certainly makes sense within the timeline of the show. As you mentioned later, god knows what the rights situation allows and prohibits.



So presumably they're off the table? This is a minefield for fans, I can't imagine trying to actually write this show.



What point are you trying to make here? You claimed all 5 wizards arrived in the third age and I simply disputed it, based on the author's own words, as I'm sure you know well. It wasn't in a conversation about specific sources, I wasn't trying to 'have it both ways', it was my first post in this thread.

It's going to be interesting to see how Rings walks this ridiculous tightrope. I wish amazon found a way to get all the required rights. It is a big enough challenge 'filling the blanks' without having to write around events you can't touch.

The author's own words? Here are the "author's own words".

"When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth." This is from the appendices and it's quite clear. The Blue Wizards "were" counted among the Istari and NOTHING in the appendices (which, I'm told is the ONLY thing Amazon could use) that indicates they came to Middle Earth prior to that.

if someone wants to quote some other writings to make the point that the show follows Tolkien's writings (maybe older or more recent), that's one thing, but don't use other books to back up a particular point and then tell me that I can't do the same (I'm not saying you are doing that per se, but I've seen a lot of that in here). In other words "you" (generic you and not personal you) don't get to play both sides of that fence. Either stick to the appendices or not. I can do either and it's pretty clear, to me at least, the show doesn't do much to parallel the writings of the author.

 

[InCali]

But she isn't portrayed as the cliche, though. While they do show that she is "right" in the terms of Sauron and evil forces still being around, they still make it very clear that she is going about it the wrong way. And I think the framing of her state of mind is very important to work against the normal cliche.

Is it what Tokien wrote, I will take you word that it isn't. But that is a separate conversation.



Which begs the question, when is Middle Earth allowed to grow beyond Tolkien? Dracula has grown beyond Stoker. Frankenstein grown beyond Shelly. Romeo & Juliet grown beyond Shakespeare. Hell, even Star Wars and Star Trek has grown beyond Lucas and Roddenberry.

It was never going to be Tolkien's work. The films aren't Tolkien's work, they are Tolkien's work through the eyes of Jackson. And if you got what you wanted, it is Tolkien's works through your eyes. And I am at the point in my fandom life, where I am all for letting other voices in. I will try to enjoy this Tolkien's guys little Ring Cycle fanfic.

I get your point and it's a good one. I never said that I couldn't enjoy Tolkien knock off and have enjoyed them in the past. All I'm saying is that this is way, way off Tolkien's writings of the 2nd age whether it's based on only the appendices or the more inclusive writings. A faithful retelling CAN be done and done well; whether we get one or not remains to be seen. PJ didn't really do that; although he came a lot closer than this did. At least the main characters had similar temperaments and personalities and the timelines/events were basically followed.

Also, these stories aren't episodic in nature as is ST, SW, etc. These are well known, fully fleshed out stories that have a beginning and end. Beyond that, I would be FINE with a good 4th age story. It just, again, wouldn't be a Tolkien story.