Rings of Power (Book Contradictions Discussion - CAUTION!! SPOILERS)

[InCali]

Man, I am spending WAY too much time on this.

 

[Persona]

Me too, haha! But it's a good discussion and I have a lot of respect for everyone's perspectives on this. Unfortunately LOTR reddit is a mess right now with just an overflow of people who either want to troll, or attack each other for disagreeing, or who don't know what they are talking about but want to act like they do because they think Peter Jackson wrote the Bible on Middle Earth, or they don't want to hear anything negative about the show, or don't want to hear anything positive about the show, or who are bigots, etc. And even the threads that haven't devolved, there are just too many posts to keep up with, the subs are overridden. So it's great to have a more focused, contained discussion here in good faith.

As an addendum, in Unfinished Tales Tolkien wrote "[Galadriel] deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered.” (2.04.01.019)

To prepare for making this show, the showrunners said they read/reread basically every Tolkien text and letter about Middle Earth even though they don't have rights to many of them. They made particular note of The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. So obviously some of these texts have informed them while they can't be officially informed them from a rights perspective and have to write around or indirectly about a lot of this stuff in the show. It's a weird situation, no doubt, so I am trying to look at it from a more removed view and just enjoy whatever the heck it is we do get. It might end up resembling Tolkien more or resembling it less by the time it has finished.

 

[InCali]

Me too, haha! But it's a good discussion and I have a lot of respect for everyone's perspectives on this. Unfortunately LOTR reddit is a mess right now with just an overflow of people who either want to troll, or attack each other for disagreeing, or who don't know what they are talking about but want to act like they do because they think Peter Jackson wrote the Bible on Middle Earth, or they don't want to hear anything negative about the show, or don't want to hear anything positive about the show, or who are bigots, etc. And even the threads that haven't devolved, there are just too many posts to keep up with, the subs are overridden. So it's great to have a more focused, contained discussion here in good faith.

As an addendum, in Unfinished Tales Tolkien wrote "[Galadriel] deemed it her duty to remain in Middle-earth while Sauron was still unconquered.” (2.04.01.019)

To prepare for making this show, the showrunners said they read/reread basically every Tolkien text and letter about Middle Earth even though they don't have rights to many of them. They made particular note of The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. So obviously some of these texts have informed them while they can't be officially informed them from a rights perspective and have to write around or indirectly about a lot of this stuff in the show. It's a weird situation, no doubt, so I am trying to look at it from a more removed view and just enjoy whatever the heck it is we do get. It might end up resembling Tolkien more or resembling it less by the time it has finished.

Well, I've read The Silmarillion at least 20 times (that's conservative), LotR WAY more than that (I used it to cure myself of insomnia, but that's another story), Unfinished Tales several times, the entirety of 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth once (some of the volumes more), and everything else except the recent release and I can only say that if they did that with an eye to creating an accurate reflection of the 2nd age, I don't think they did a very good job. They may have a commercial success on their hands (I think they do), but that's another story. I get that the commercial success is important and I don't have a problem with that. I just think you can do both.

Given that Tolkien's view of Middle Earth evolved, we will always be able to pick out a statement here or there that supports a given opinion, but when I look at it, I think in terms of the preponderance of evidence and that indicates non-warrior Galadriel and a character more in the "Melian Light" category. Now, a LOT of what I think comes from The Silmarillion and that was put together by Christopher and not directly by the author, but answer me this....."Who knew more about JRR's take on the characters? Him or us?" From that perspective, I'll take Christopher's opinion over virtually anyone's and call the text of The Silmarillion canon.If you do that, I think you can understand why I don't see this show as Tolkien's 2nd age.

Man.....I gotta stop this S***, but it's hard for someone who loves his writings....oh well.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

Well, I've read The Silmarillion at least 20 times (that's conservative), LotR WAY more than that (I used it to cure myself of insomnia, but that's another story), Unfinished Tales several times, the entirety of 12 volumes of The History of Middle Earth once (some of the volumes more), and everything else except the recent release and I can only say that if they did that with an eye to creating an accurate reflection of the 2nd age, I don't think they did a very good job. They may have a commercial success on their hands (I think they do), but that's another story. I get that the commercial success is important and I don't have a problem with that. I just think you can do both.

Given that Tolkien's view of Middle Earth evolved, we will always be able to pick out a statement here or there that supports a given opinion, but when I look at it, I think in terms of the preponderance of evidence and that indicates non-warrior Galadriel and a character more in the "Melian Light" category. Now, a LOT of what I think comes from The Silmarillion and that was put together by Christopher and not directly by the author, but answer me this....."Who knew more about JRR's take on the characters? Him or us?" From that perspective, I'll take Christopher's opinion over virtually anyone's and call the text of The Silmarillion canon.If you do that, I think you can understand why I don't see this show as Tolkien's 2nd age.

Man.....I gotta stop this S***, but it's hard for someone who loves his writings....oh well.

Our bookshelves look very similar, so I totally grok this view. It’s not that different from my own. I suppose where we differ, if we differ at all, is that I see JRRT’s work as the ultimate rejection of the whole concept of “canon.” He never stopped writing and changing Middle Earth. From the Lost Tales to the last months of his life tweaking Galadriel’s story, it constantly evolved. What we have in LOTR and the Silmarillion is just a snapshot of where he was in its sub-creation (as he might have put it) at the time and it changed even after that was published. There are early works that portray dragons as armored personnel carriers and imply Numonrean battleships and dirigibles, and later attempts to completely rewrite the “flat earth” mythos because everyone know we live on a globe now. If he’d had the lifespan of Elros, would JRRT have ever written a warrior Galadriel? I can’t say no to that. I’m content to let it play out and figure out what he might or might not have kept later.

 

[InCali]

Our bookshelves look very similar, so I totally grok this view. It’s not that different from my own. I suppose where we differ, if we differ at all, is that I see JRRT’s work as the ultimate rejection of the whole concept of “canon.” He never stopped writing and changing Middle Earth. From the Lost Tales to the last months of his life tweaking Galadriel’s story, it constantly evolved. What we have in LOTR and the Silmarillion is just a snapshot of where he was in its sub-creation (as he might have put it) at the time and it changed even after that was published. There are early works that portray dragons as armored personnel carriers and imply Numonrean battleships and dirigibles, and later attempts to completely rewrite the “flat earth” mythos because everyone know we live on a globe now. If he’d had the lifespan of Elros, would JRRT have ever written a warrior Galadriel? I can’t say no to that. I’m content to let it play out and figure out what he might or might not have kept later.

An interesting way of looking at it. At the time of JRRs death, The Silmarillion had yet to be published and was a work in progress to finish. What Christopher did was to take his father's writings and put them in a coherent, consistent form that encompassed his father's overall intent.

It's very true that the story evolved. I wrote a novel sometime back and know somewhat of that process. You rewrite for various reasons; better ideas come up, internal inconsistencies need to be resolved, etc. I feel quite sure that Christopher's rendition of The Silmarillion is as close to canon as we can get without having his father himself writing the final version. Unfinished Tales, on the other hand, introduces some things not in The Silmarillion and gives us an idea about the journey his father took in the creation. Given that Christopher had access to all of these materials to put The Silmarillion in its final form, I call it canon.

Galadriel is a good example of the evolution of this tale. While she was meant to be mighty among the Noldor, she evolved to become the greatest of their house, with the possible exception of Feanor. That being said, warrior Galadriel of the 2nd age would need a complete rewrite of the Galadriel of the 1st age. She would have left Doriath and ignored the warnings of Melian to seek out Sauron; who she held responsible for the death of her beloved brother. Nothing else that I can think of would have made any sense if the Galadriel of the books meshed with the Galadriel we're now seeing onscreen. Would Tolkien have done that? Possibly, but as he moved forward, there appear to be more tweaks than actual, complete rewrites. Further, that change would have actually diminished Galadriel as Tolkien clearly did not equate physical might with true greatness; though he might have included her growth to wisdom later on.

It may be that the Amazon rendition ends up being a good story and that's great. IMO it just doesn't fit the writings.

BTW, this IS a picture of my bookshelf. I also have my collection on my website listed at the bottom of this post with a complete description of each book. The paperbacks that I actually read are elsewhere.

EDIT: This doesn't include my copies of "The Children of Hurin", my copy of Roverandom, and several of my Easton Press editions (all in wrap and first editions). I ran out of space and they are on another shelf. My copies of Smith of Wooton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham are the small books laying horizontally on the first books of The History of Middle Earth in the upper left hand shelf.

 

[Albright]

I‘m onl dissapointed by one thing: that this giant dark fortress from the trailer wasn’t Tol Sirion but most likely Angband.
I was hoping we‘ll see Galadriel finding the body in the fortress guarded by werwolves and vampires.
But they of course don’t have the rights for that.
Angband was also cool.

 

[InCali]

I‘m onl dissapointed by one thing: that this giant dark fortress from the trailer wasn’t Tol Sirion but most likely Angband.
I was hoping we‘ll see Galadriel finding the body in the fortress guarded by werwolves and vampires.
But they of course don’t have the rights for that.
Angband was also cool.

Man....you guys are killin' me. You're doing it on purpose. Right???

Sure they do....because it never happened. They could have easily sent her somewhere to find him right after she killed the snow troll.

 

[Albright]

so who found Finrod in the book then?

 

[Boom]

so who found Finrod in the book then?

Luthien and Huan.

 

[Persona]

I‘m onl dissapointed by one thing: that this giant dark fortress from the trailer wasn’t Tol Sirion but most likely Angband.
I was hoping we‘ll see Galadriel finding the body in the fortress guarded by werwolves and vampires.
But they of course don’t have the rights for that.
Angband was also cool.

No, definitely not Angband, that's wiped out beneath the ocean at this point. They couldn't say the name but I believe it was supposed to be remains of Morgoth's first fortress, Utumno, which would have been roughly where they were in the Forodwaith.

 

[InCali]

No, definitely not Angband, that's wiped out beneath the ocean at this point. They couldn't say the name but I believe it was supposed to be remains of Morgoth's first fortress, Utumno, which would have been roughly where they were in the Forodwaith.

Pretty sure Utumno was destroyed in The War of Wrath. There were most likely several lesser strongholds in the north.

 

[Persona]

Yes, but it was partly described as the Valar unearthing it and hunting down Morgoth in the deepest pit, so one could easily view this as being part of what was left behind.

That said, yes, it could also just be a lesser stronghold that was close to Utumno.

 

[InCali]

Yes, but it was partly described as the Valar unearthing it and hunting down Morgoth in the deepest pit, so one could easily view this as being part of what was left behind.

That said, yes, it could also just be a lesser stronghold that was close to Utumno.

It's implied, but not specifically stated, that the sinking of Beleriand took place "after" the defeat of Morgoth in the War of Wrath. All the pits of his realm were unroofed upon the victory of the Hosts of the Valar. That doesn't make much sense if it had already sunk. This is discussed in the (last) chapter of The Silmarillion "Of the Voyage of Earendil".

 

[Persona]

I guess I am not sure how that has anything to do with whether we can pretend this is a part of Utumno or not?

Like you said, considering it an Utumno-adjacent stronghold works just as well. Love the deep cut of having the Elves in the Forodwaith looking for a place like this.

 

[InCali]

I guess I am not sure how that has anything to do with whether we can pretend this is a part of Utumno or not?

Like you said, considering it an Utumno-adjacent stronghold works just as well. Love the deep cut of having the Elves in the Forodwaith looking for a place like this.

Sure. I mean, they've made up a lot of things that didn't exist in the books so there's no reason it can't be Utumno or whatever. It's just another book contradiction.....by the way, that was a smart addition made by whatever mod or admin.

 

[SomeOldGuy]

Based on the location in the far north I’d vote Utumno. Where it was an whether it still existed has been a bit of a fan debate for years. Good recent summary here:

 

[Persona]

Now that's what I'm talking bout!

 

[uncletyrion]

This series was a snooze fest. The most exciting part was when Halbrand nearly got beat up. Besides Durin and his wife the acting was some where between mediocre and terrible. However, the real problem was the story line or really the lack of one. I'm not surprised the dialogue sucked so much consider they had so little to talk about. I actually liked the orcs more than any character! The good news is it can't possibly get an worse. Right?